DLR Oyster validator
 

OK I am a regular Underground and Tramlink user but whenever I visit
DLR, (WIQ, West India Quay, and GAR, Gallions Reach) I often fail to
touch out.

Most valaidators face out so welcome travellers to the system but
don't help those existing the system.

Thoughts?

OC

DLR Oyster validator
 

On Feb 28, 7:43*am, Old Central wrote:
OK I am a regular Underground and Tramlink user but whenever I visit
DLR, (WIQ, West India Quay, and GAR, Gallions Reach) I often fail to
touch out.

Most valaidators face out so welcome travellers to the system but
don't help those existing the system.

Thoughts?


The DLR validators are often very badly placed. Examples:

Deptford Bridge (southern end), where the validators are near the
bottom of the stairs, but facing away from both the stairs and the
main road, towards the river path, easily missed.

Heron Quays, where the validator is in the middle of the area below
the station, nowhere near the stairs, such that if you leave at the
end nearest the Jubilee, you don't go past it or see it unless you
turn round and search for it.

Greenwich, where it's in the middle of the platform section that is an
island with NR, but if an unfamiliar traveller leaves from the front
half of a northbound DLR train and heads for the exit, expecting a
gateline as at Stratford, they won't pass any validators and would
have a very long walk back.

Solution:

Always have a validator at any point where people enter or leave the
platform (section) used by the DLR. At Heron Quays and Deptford
Bridge that would be at the tops of the staircases.

At Greenwich northbound, that would be at the wall beside where the
DLR disappears into tunnel (and also at the top of the stairs to the
other exit).

Stratford might be a special case (does it matter if you touch out at
both platform and gateline?). Also, these positions are not
exclusive. There could be additional validators at exits etc.

Advantages:

It wouldn't be possible, as now, for a large proportion of passengers
to enter/exit the DLR nowhere near the validators.

It wouldn't be necessary to touch in before being in sight of
information about whether the DLR is actually running.

DLR Oyster validator
 

On Feb 28, 7:43 am, Old Central wrote:
OK I am a regular Underground and Tramlink user but whenever I visit
DLR, (WIQ, West India Quay, and GAR, Gallions Reach) I often fail to
touch out.

Most valaidators face out so welcome travellers to the system but
don't help those existing the system.

Thoughts?

OC

Do they still have those misleading - totally incorrect in fact -
signs on the validators that only pay-as-you-go customers need to
swipe in? (It should be that all Oyster customers need to swipe in).

DLR Oyster validator
 

Offramp wrote:
On Feb 28, 7:43 am, Old Central wrote:
OK I am a regular Underground and Tramlink user but whenever I
visit DLR, (WIQ, West India Quay, and GAR, Gallions Reach) I often
fail to touch out.

Most valaidators face out so welcome travellers to the system but
don't help those existing the system.

Thoughts?

OC

Do they still have those misleading - totally incorrect in fact -
signs on the validators that only pay-as-you-go customers need to
swipe in? (It should be that all Oyster customers need to swipe in).

According to the "Common Questions" on the DLR part of TfL's website "If
you are using pay as you go, you must touch your Oyster card on the
reader every time you enter and exit the station."

If you are using a valid Travelcard loaded on your Oyster, or a Freedom
Pass, there's no point in touching in and out on DLR where there are no
gates.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

DLR Oyster validator
 

On 28 Feb, 09:55, Offramp wrote:
[DLR]
Do they still have those misleading - totally incorrect in fact -
signs on the validators that only pay-as-you-go customers need to
swipe in? (It should be that all Oyster customers need to swipe in).

Eh? Only PAYG customers do need to swipe in - if you have a Travelcard
that covers you for the zones you're intending to travel in, you don't
need to swipe in, whether you're on NR, LU, DLR or a bendy bus.

You might disapprove of this policy out of some misguided anti-season-
ticket-holder-animosity, but it's The Case [why the flaming hell would
it not be? They have paid a great deal of money for a valid ticket
that covers their journey...]

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

DLR Oyster validator
 

On 28 Feb, 10:09, John B wrote:
On 28 Feb, 09:55, Offramp wrote:
[DLR]

Do they still have those misleading - totally incorrect in fact -
signs on the validators that only pay-as-you-go customers need to
swipe in? (It should be that all Oyster customers need to swipe in).

Eh? Only PAYG customers do need to swipe in - if you have a Travelcard
that covers you for the zones you're intending to travel in, you don't
need to swipe in, whether you're on NR, LU, DLR or a bendy bus.

You might disapprove of this policy out of some misguided anti-season-
ticket-holder-animosity, but it's The Case [why the flaming hell would
it not be? They have paid a great deal of money for a valid ticket
that covers their journey...]


That's not quite true. If you have a zone 1 - 2 travelcard on Oyster
and continue to West Ruislip via Bank using PAYG for the excess, you
do need to touch in somewhere. True, you can do it at Bank, but might
as well be at your starting station to avoid forgetting.

DLR Oyster validator
 

On 28 Feb, 10:43, MIG wrote:
Eh? Only PAYG customers do need to swipe in - if you have a Travelcard
that covers you for the zones you're intending to travel in, you don't
need to swipe in, whether you're on NR, LU, DLR or a bendy bus.

You might disapprove of this policy out of some misguided anti-season-
ticket-holder-animosity, but it's The Case [why the flaming hell would
it not be? They have paid a great deal of money for a valid ticket
that covers their journey...]

That's not quite true. If you have a zone 1 - 2 travelcard on Oyster
and continue to West Ruislip via Bank using PAYG for the excess, you
do need to touch in somewhere. True, you can do it at Bank, but might
as well be at your starting station to avoid forgetting.

Hence "that covers you for the zones you're intending to travel in"
above.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

DLR Oyster validator
 

On 28 Feb, 11:20, John B wrote:
On 28 Feb, 10:43, MIG wrote:

Eh? Only PAYG customers do need to swipe in - if you have a Travelcard
that covers you for the zones you're intending to travel in, you don't
need to swipe in, whether you're on NR, LU, DLR or a bendy bus.

You might disapprove of this policy out of some misguided anti-season-
ticket-holder-animosity, but it's The Case [why the flaming hell would
it not be? They have paid a great deal of money for a valid ticket
that covers their journey...]

That's not quite true. *If you have a zone 1 - 2 travelcard on Oyster
and continue to West Ruislip via Bank using PAYG for the excess, you
do need to touch in somewhere. *True, you can do it at Bank, but might
as well be at your starting station to avoid forgetting.

Hence "that covers you for the zones you're intending to travel in"
above.

Yeah, I replied to the wrong message, sorry (wonders of Google).

DLR Oyster validator
 

On 28 Feb, 07:43, Old Central wrote:
OK I am a regular Underground and Tramlink user but whenever I visit
DLR, (WIQ, West India Quay, and GAR, Gallions Reach) I often fail to
touch out.

As an occasional visitor to London, with Oyster PAYG, I'm never sure
what to do on Tube-DLR transfers. At Bank, there are lots of signs
saying "always touch", so I always do.

But I did Central-DLR at Stratford the other week. Mindful of Bank, I
touched as I went past the validator on the platform. On the DLR
train, there was an inspector who told me I shouldn't have used that
validator - I should have just walked straight from Tube to DLR.

And then at Cutty Sark, I found myself going up and up and wondering
where the validator would be to touch out, worrying that I had already
missed it.

Not ideal. (But overall I have to say Oyster PAYG is still great as an
infrequent visitor; I much prefer it to paper ticketing with
travelcards.)

Sam

DLR Oyster validator
 

On 28 Feb, 14:18, Sam wrote:
On 28 Feb, 07:43, Old Central wrote:

OK I am a regular Underground and Tramlink user but whenever I visit
DLR, (WIQ, West India Quay, and GAR, Gallions Reach) I often fail to
touch out.

As an occasional visitor to London, with Oyster PAYG, I'm never sure
what to do on Tube-DLR transfers. At Bank, there are lots of signs
saying "always touch", so I always do.

But I did Central-DLR at Stratford the other week. Mindful of Bank, I
touched as I went past the validator on the platform. On the DLR
train, there was an inspector who told me I shouldn't have used that
validator - I should have just walked straight from Tube to DLR.

I've done the anecdote about when I was going from Euston to Cannon
Street (down the road from Bank) and forgot to touch in (used to
having a travelcard and the gate was open).

So instead of getting straight out at Bank and down Walbrook, I went
to the DLR and touched, then up the escalator to the Monument gateline
(equally adjacent to Cannon Street) and touched out and got charged
the correct price for a zone 1 journey.

It's almost as if the Bank validator doesn't know where it is, apart
from being somewhere in zone 1.


And then at Cutty Sark, I found myself going up and up and wondering
where the validator would be to touch out, worrying that I had already
missed it.

Not ideal. (But overall I have to say Oyster PAYG is still great as an
infrequent visitor; I much prefer it to paper ticketing with
travelcards.)

DLR Oyster validator
 

On Feb 28, 10:09 am, John B wrote:
On 28 Feb, 09:55, Offramp wrote:
[DLR]

Do they still have those misleading - totally incorrect in fact -
signs on the validators that only pay-as-you-go customers need to
swipe in? (It should be that all Oyster customers need to swipe in).

Eh? Only PAYG customers do need to swipe in - if you have a Travelcard
that covers you for the zones you're intending to travel in, you don't
need to swipe in, whether you're on NR, LU, DLR or a bendy bus.

You might disapprove of this policy out of some misguided anti-season-
ticket-holder-animosity, but it's The Case [why the flaming hell would
it not be? They have paid a great deal of money for a valid ticket
that covers their journey...]

Transport for London disagrees with you. The Conditions of Carriage
state that all Oyster card users must swipe in at their start and end
stations.

DLR Oyster validator
 

On Feb 28, 10:05 am, "Richard J." wrote:
Offramp wrote:
On Feb 28, 7:43 am, Old Central wrote:
OK I am a regular Underground and Tramlink user but whenever I
visit DLR, (WIQ, West India Quay, and GAR, Gallions Reach) I often
fail to touch out.

Most valaidators face out so welcome travellers to the system but
don't help those existing the system.

Thoughts?

OC

Do they still have those misleading - totally incorrect in fact -
signs on the validators that only pay-as-you-go customers need to
swipe in? (It should be that all Oyster customers need to swipe in).

According to the "Common Questions" on the DLR part of TfL's website "If
you are using pay as you go, you must touch your Oyster card on the
reader every time you enter and exit the station."

If you are using a valid Travelcard loaded on your Oyster, or a Freedom
Pass, there's no point in touching in and out on DLR where there are no
gates.

So if you have a zone 2 travelcard and you are travelling from Cutty
Sark to Mornington Crescent, you don't have to swipe in? When do you
pay for zone 1?

DLR Oyster validator
 

On Feb 28, 10:43 am, MIG wrote:
On 28 Feb, 10:09, John B wrote:

On 28 Feb, 09:55, Offramp wrote:
[DLR]

Do they still have those misleading - totally incorrect in fact -
signs on the validators that only pay-as-you-go customers need to
swipe in? (It should be that all Oyster customers need to swipe in).

Eh? Only PAYG customers do need to swipe in - if you have a Travelcard
that covers you for the zones you're intending to travel in, you don't
need to swipe in, whether you're on NR, LU, DLR or a bendy bus.

You might disapprove of this policy out of some misguided anti-season-
ticket-holder-animosity, but it's The Case [why the flaming hell would
it not be? They have paid a great deal of money for a valid ticket
that covers their journey...]

That's not quite true. If you have a zone 1 - 2 travelcard on Oyster
and continue to West Ruislip via Bank using PAYG for the excess, you
do need to touch in somewhere. True, you can do it at Bank, but might
as well be at your starting station to avoid forgetting.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...f_carriage.pdf
On page 12:
6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey. If the ticket gates at stations are open you must
still touch your Oyster card on the card reader.

That ties in with TfL's general Conditions of Carriage.
There is no mention of what type of ticket; it just means all Oyster
cards. There's obviously a lot of fare evaders in this group!

DLR Oyster validator
 

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:39:06 -0800 (PST), Offramp
wrote:

On Feb 28, 10:09 am, John B wrote:
On 28 Feb, 09:55, Offramp wrote:
[DLR]

Do they still have those misleading - totally incorrect in fact -
signs on the validators that only pay-as-you-go customers need to
swipe in? (It should be that all Oyster customers need to swipe in).

Eh? Only PAYG customers do need to swipe in - if you have a Travelcard
that covers you for the zones you're intending to travel in, you don't
need to swipe in, whether you're on NR, LU, DLR or a bendy bus.

You might disapprove of this policy out of some misguided anti-season-
ticket-holder-animosity, but it's The Case [why the flaming hell would
it not be? They have paid a great deal of money for a valid ticket
that covers their journey...]

Transport for London disagrees with you. The Conditions of Carriage
state that all Oyster card users must swipe in at their start and end
stations.

The CoC state all sorts of interesting things. In this case, you're
deflecting away from the original point that Travelcard holders do not
need to touch in and out[*] within the zones of their Travelcard to
avoid a maximum cash fare.
[*] And can you please stop using the inappropriate verb "swipe"?
Swiping the card across the target is liable to lead to a 94 error.

DLR Oyster validator
 

On Feb 29, 8:37 am, James Farrar wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:39:06 -0800 (PST), Offramp



wrote:
On Feb 28, 10:09 am, John B wrote:
On 28 Feb, 09:55, Offramp wrote:
[DLR]

Do they still have those misleading - totally incorrect in fact -
signs on the validators that only pay-as-you-go customers need to
swipe in? (It should be that all Oyster customers need to swipe in).

Eh? Only PAYG customers do need to swipe in - if you have a Travelcard
that covers you for the zones you're intending to travel in, you don't
need to swipe in, whether you're on NR, LU, DLR or a bendy bus.

You might disapprove of this policy out of some misguided anti-season-
ticket-holder-animosity, but it's The Case [why the flaming hell would
it not be? They have paid a great deal of money for a valid ticket
that covers their journey...]

Transport for London disagrees with you. The Conditions of Carriage
state that all Oyster card users must swipe in at their start and end
stations.

The CoC state all sorts of interesting things. In this case, you're
deflecting away from the original point that Travelcard holders do not
need to touch in and out[*] within the zones of their Travelcard to
avoid a maximum cash fare.

[*] And can you please stop using the inappropriate verb "swipe"?
Swiping the card across the target is liable to lead to a 94 error.

The original point was "Do they still have those misleading - totally
incorrect in fact -
signs on the validators that only pay-as-you-go customers need to
swipe in? (It should be that all Oyster customers need to swipe in)."

As the DLR and TfL C-o-Cs state, "all Oyster customers need to swipe
in," as I said, or "all Oyster customers need to touch in," no matter
what their journey is.

I am not making this up - you can read it yourself.

It is Occam's Razor - everyone with whatever ticket on their Oyster
must touch in on the DLR or anywhere else. Pretty straightforward.

Further complaints, such as not wanting to touch in because, "they
have paid a great deal of money for a valid ticket that covers their
journey", should be addressed to TfL.

DLR Oyster validator
 

On Feb 29, 6:52*am, Offramp wrote:
On Feb 28, 10:43 am, MIG wrote:





On 28 Feb, 10:09, John B wrote:

On 28 Feb, 09:55, Offramp wrote:
[DLR]

Do they still have those misleading - totally incorrect in fact -
signs on the validators that only pay-as-you-go customers need to
swipe in? (It should be that all Oyster customers need to swipe in).

Eh? Only PAYG customers do need to swipe in - if you have a Travelcard
that covers you for the zones you're intending to travel in, you don't
need to swipe in, whether you're on NR, LU, DLR or a bendy bus.

You might disapprove of this policy out of some misguided anti-season-
ticket-holder-animosity, but it's The Case [why the flaming hell would
it not be? They have paid a great deal of money for a valid ticket
that covers their journey...]

That's not quite true. *If you have a zone 1 - 2 travelcard on Oyster
and continue to West Ruislip via Bank using PAYG for the excess, you
do need to touch in somewhere. *True, you can do it at Bank, but might
as well be at your starting station to avoid forgetting.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...f_carriage.pdf
On page 12:
6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey. If the ticket gates at stations are open you must
still touch your Oyster card on the card reader.

That ties in with TfL's general Conditions of Carriage.
There is no mention of what type of ticket; it just means all Oyster
cards. There's obviously a lot of fare evaders in this group!-

Explain how a journey with a travelcard within the zones covered by
the travelcard is fare-evasion.

You are obviously one of the many people who believe that the purpose
of Oyster is to make it easier to enforce the rules of Oyster.

DLR Oyster validator
 

On Feb 29, 9:14 am, MIG wrote:
On Feb 29, 6:52 am, Offramp wrote:



On Feb 28, 10:43 am, MIG wrote:

On 28 Feb, 10:09, John B wrote:

On 28 Feb, 09:55, Offramp wrote:
[DLR]

Do they still have those misleading - totally incorrect in fact -
signs on the validators that only pay-as-you-go customers need to
swipe in? (It should be that all Oyster customers need to swipe in).

Eh? Only PAYG customers do need to swipe in - if you have a Travelcard
that covers you for the zones you're intending to travel in, you don't
need to swipe in, whether you're on NR, LU, DLR or a bendy bus.

You might disapprove of this policy out of some misguided anti-season-
ticket-holder-animosity, but it's The Case [why the flaming hell would
it not be? They have paid a great deal of money for a valid ticket
that covers their journey...]

That's not quite true. If you have a zone 1 - 2 travelcard on Oyster
and continue to West Ruislip via Bank using PAYG for the excess, you
do need to touch in somewhere. True, you can do it at Bank, but might
as well be at your starting station to avoid forgetting.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...f_carriage.pdf
On page 12:
6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey. If the ticket gates at stations are open you must
still touch your Oyster card on the card reader.

That ties in with TfL's general Conditions of Carriage.
There is no mention of what type of ticket; it just means all Oyster
cards. There's obviously a lot of fare evaders in this group!-

Explain how a journey with a travelcard within the zones covered by
the travelcard is fare-evasion.

You are obviously one of the many people who believe that the purpose
of Oyster is to make it easier to enforce the rules of Oyster.

I do not see what your point is, or why you have become so defensive.
The Conditions of Carriage are very clear, and I won't repeat them.
People who for some reason do not want to obey those conditions must
have a reason for not obeying them. I do not know what that reason is,
but I have my own opinion, which I will keep to myself.

You added a comment about met: "You are obviously one of the many
people who believe that the purpose of Oyster is to make it easier to
enforce the rules of Oyster."
I do not know what makes you think that. I have simply quoted the Cs-o-
C.

DLR Oyster validator
 

On 29 Feb, 08:51, Offramp wrote:
Further complaints, such as not wanting to touch in because, "they
have paid a great deal of money for a valid ticket that covers their
journey", should be addressed to TfL.

The conditions of carriage are overly simplified, probably so fare
evaders have one less excuse in court. As the sign on the DLR reader
proves, in practice they only care about pre-pay users touching in/out
everywhere.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

DLR Oyster validator
 

On 29 Feb, 06:47, Offramp wrote:
On Feb 28, 10:05 am, "Richard J." wrote:
If you are using a valid Travelcard loaded on your Oyster, or a Freedom
Pass, there's no point in touching in and out on DLR where there are no
gates.

So if you have a zone 2 travelcard and you are travelling from Cutty
Sark to Mornington Crescent, you don't have to swipe in? When do you
pay for zone 1?

Richard said "valid Travelcard". A non zone 1 Travelcard isn't valid
for such a journey (it has to cover all zones passed through), so you
do have to touch in and out.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

DLR Oyster validator
 

Offramp wrote:
On Feb 29, 8:37 am, James Farrar wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:39:06 -0800 (PST), Offramp
wrote:

Transport for London disagrees with you. The Conditions of
Carriage state that all Oyster card users must swipe in at their
start and end stations.

The CoC state all sorts of interesting things. In this case,
you're deflecting away from the original point that Travelcard
holders do not need to touch in and out[*] within the zones of
their Travelcard to avoid a maximum cash fare.

[*] And can you please stop using the inappropriate verb "swipe"?
Swiping the card across the target is liable to lead to a 94 error.

The original point was "Do they still have those misleading -
totally incorrect in fact - signs on the validators that only
pay-as-you-go customers need to swipe in? (It should be that all
Oyster customers need to swipe in)."

As the DLR and TfL C-o-Cs state, "all Oyster customers need to swipe
in," as I said, or "all Oyster customers need to touch in," no
matter what their journey is.

The link you provided earlier was to the DLR C-o-C of 2006 which has now
been superseded. The latest one is the TfL C-o-C dated 2 January 2008 at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...e-08-01-02.pdf
which includes the following:

"1.2. These Conditions of Carriage, which may be amended from time to
time, replace all previous versions published by Transport for London,
London Transport and its subsidiaries.

6.6. Using a season ticket on your Oyster card
6.6.1. When you use London Underground, London Overground and National
Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader
at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket gates at
stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on the card
reader.
When you use a bus, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card
reader as you board the bus ..."

Note, no mention of DLR or trams, so touching in when your journey is
covered by a season ticket is NOT necessary on DLR or trams, but IS
required on LU, NR and buses (including bendy buses).

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

DLR Oyster validator
 

On 29 Feb, 10:23, "Richard J." wrote:
The link you provided earlier was to the DLR C-o-C of 2006 which has now
been superseded. The latest one is the TfL C-o-C dated 2 January 2008 at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...e-08-01-02.pdf
which includes the following:

Note, no mention of DLR or trams, so touching in when your journey is
covered by a season ticket is NOT necessary on DLR or trams, but IS
required on LU, NR and buses (including bendy buses).

Hmm.

Amused the self-righteous tit upthread is wrong - however, there is no
sane reason for this rule to exist on any means of transport, and
anyone who believes that there is (or that someone who breaks it is a
fare evader, rather than the victim of a bloody silly and pointless
rule) is an idiot.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

DLR Oyster validator
 

On 29 Feb, 09:26, Offramp wrote:
Explain how a journey with a travelcard within the zones covered by
the travelcard is fare-evasion.

You are obviously one of the many people who believe that the purpose
of Oyster is to make it easier to enforce the rules of Oyster.

I do not see what your point is, or why you have become so defensive.
The Conditions of Carriage are very clear, and I won't repeat them.
People who for some reason do not want to obey those conditions must
have a reason for not obeying them. I do not know what that reason is,
but I have my own opinion, which I will keep to myself.

Because, having paid GBP1000 to TfL for the privilege of travelling
throughout London, I'd like to do so with the minimum of hassle. So,
when making a journey that I've already paid for, I don't see any
reason why I should subject myself to the extra inconvenience of
searching for the Oyster readers and touching in, given that doing so
will make no different to TfL's revenues or to my costs.

That's my "reason for not obeying them". What's your suggestion?

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

DLR Oyster validator
 

On 29 Feb, 09:26, Offramp wrote:
On Feb 29, 9:14 am, MIG wrote:





On Feb 29, 6:52 am, Offramp wrote:

On Feb 28, 10:43 am, MIG wrote:

On 28 Feb, 10:09, John B wrote:

On 28 Feb, 09:55, Offramp wrote:
[DLR]

Do they still have those misleading - totally incorrect in fact -
signs on the validators that only pay-as-you-go customers need to
swipe in? (It should be that all Oyster customers need to swipe in).

Eh? Only PAYG customers do need to swipe in - if you have a Travelcard
that covers you for the zones you're intending to travel in, you don't
need to swipe in, whether you're on NR, LU, DLR or a bendy bus.

You might disapprove of this policy out of some misguided anti-season-
ticket-holder-animosity, but it's The Case [why the flaming hell would
it not be? They have paid a great deal of money for a valid ticket
that covers their journey...]

That's not quite true. *If you have a zone 1 - 2 travelcard on Oyster
and continue to West Ruislip via Bank using PAYG for the excess, you
do need to touch in somewhere. *True, you can do it at Bank, but might
as well be at your starting station to avoid forgetting.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...f_carriage.pdf
On page 12:
6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey. If the ticket gates at stations are open you must
still touch your Oyster card on the card reader.

That ties in with TfL's general Conditions of Carriage.
There is no mention of what type of ticket; it just means all Oyster
cards. There's obviously a lot of fare evaders in this group!-

Explain how a journey with a travelcard within the zones covered by
the travelcard is fare-evasion.

You are obviously one of the many people who believe that the purpose
of Oyster is to make it easier to enforce the rules of Oyster.

I do not see what your point is, or why you have become so defensive.
The Conditions of Carriage are very clear, and I won't repeat them.
People who for some reason do not want to obey those conditions must
have a reason for not obeying them. I do not know what that reason is,
but I have my own opinion, which I will keep to myself.

You added a comment about met: "You are obviously one of the many
people who believe that the purpose of Oyster is to make it easier to
enforce the rules of Oyster."
I do not know what makes you think that. I have simply quoted the Cs-o-
C

I was getting at your assumption that any non-compliance with
Conditions is somehow fare-evasion. Some people refuse to see the
difference and think that it's justified to punish people with maximum
fares if they didn't touch correctly, just because it's the rules, in
cases where there can be no suspicion of fare-evasion.

Your accusations are bizarre if you really think that not touching
your travelcard on the DLR and then getting charged a maximum fare at
the end of your extended-zone journey is fare-evasion. Can you
describe a situation in which someone with a travelcard valid for the
DLR can in any way save money by not touching in at the DLR? Maybe a
zone 1 only travelcard, in which case you could rightly be caught in
the zone 2 or 3 sections.

The Conditions are clearly nonsensical anyway, since many travelcard
journeys covered by them begin and end at places where it is not
possible to touch in or out. I used to do a regular journey between
SE suburbs and SWT suburbs where the only place I ever touched was at
the SWT suburban end (no validators at Waterloo or in the SE area).

This was fare-evasion according to you, but not to the many RPOs who's
machines gave green lights when they checked my card.

DLR Oyster validator
 

On 29 Feb, 10:23, "Richard J." wrote:
Offramp wrote:
On Feb 29, 8:37 am, James Farrar wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:39:06 -0800 (PST), Offramp
wrote:
Transport for London disagrees with you. The Conditions of
Carriage state that all Oyster card users must swipe in at their
start and end stations.

The CoC state all sorts of interesting things. *In this case,
you're deflecting away from the original point that Travelcard
holders do not need to touch in and out[*] within the zones of
their Travelcard to avoid a maximum cash fare.

[*] And can you please stop using the inappropriate verb "swipe"?
Swiping the card across the target is liable to lead to a 94 error.

The original point was "Do they still have those misleading -
totally incorrect in fact - signs on the validators that only
pay-as-you-go customers need to swipe in? (It should be that all
Oyster customers need to swipe in)."

As the DLR and TfL C-o-Cs state, "all Oyster customers need to swipe
in," as I said, or "all Oyster customers need to touch in," no
matter what their journey is.

The link you provided earlier was to the DLR C-o-C of 2006 which has now
been superseded. The latest one is the TfL C-o-C dated 2 January 2008 athttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage-08-01-0...
which includes the following:

"1.2. These Conditions of Carriage, which may be amended from time to
time, replace all previous versions published by Transport for London,
London Transport and its subsidiaries.

6.6. Using a season ticket on your Oyster card
6.6.1. When you use London Underground, London Overground and National
Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader
at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket gates at
stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on the card
reader.
When you use a bus, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card
reader as you board the bus ..."

Note, no mention of DLR or trams, so touching in when your journey is
covered by a season ticket is NOT necessary on DLR or trams, but IS
required on LU, NR and buses (including bendy buses).

In the case of straight buses, I assume that the driver looking at the
bleeper is the equivalent of a barrier, and simply confirms that you
have something valid before you go past.

I've never bothered to touch a travelcard on a bendy bus. On a bus I
can't see that there's any possibility of this being fare-evasion,
since there can be no extended zones involved.

DLR Oyster validator
 

I have an annual season for zones 1 and 2, which is loaded onto an
oyster. I use the DLR almost every day.

I do not touch in / touch out when travelling on DLR. Nor do lots of
my fellow (honest) travellers who use the DLR every day.

I frequently have my ticket checked by DLR/tfl inspectors during my
journeys - in fact it happened this morning on my way to work. The
ticket inspectors use one of those portable reader things. I never
get any problem from them. Their machine always gives the green light
- confirming that I have valid ticket for the journey. The irrelevant
detail that I didn't swipe in doesn't bother them at all.

DLR Oyster validator
 

but not to the many RPOs who's
machines gave green lights when they checked my card.

Oh my God. I deserve to be penalty-fared for that apostrophe. Just a
case of my fingers leading my brain I'm afraid.

DLR Oyster validator
 

First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged with
fare evasion if you have a valid ticket.
If you go to this page - a current page -
http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/carriage/index.asp
you can get the .pdf of the DLR's Cs of C; which reads exactly as it
did two years ago:

6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey. If the ticket gates at stations are open you must
still touch your Oyster card on the card reader.

That is what it says at the moment - does anyone have a link to a more
up-to-date version where the DLR is exempted? That would be very
useful.

Why does one have to touch in - apart from it being a condition of
your carriage?

Someone with a zone 2 weekly, who is travelling from Prince Regent to
Canary Wharf, and who does not swipe in at Prince Regent "because I
don't have to touch in there" and then gets a call on his mobile to
meet a friend at Camden Town, and changes at Bank and travels to that
meeting and touches out at Camden Town... what is that? Fare evasion
or a penalty fare?

Or someone has a zones 1 & 2 travelcard and is stopped by an RCI
between Euston Square and King's Cross, and has travelled from
Heathrow, but who says he has travelled from Prince Regent, "because I
don't have to touch in there," is he liable for a penalty fare (or
prosecution)?

Just a reminder - the last one:
"When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and National
Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey."

Some people seem to think this is a massive disaster - it may be, but
it is a c of c.

DLR Oyster validator
 

Offramp wrote:
First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged
with fare evasion if you have a valid ticket.
If you go to this page - a current page -
http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/carriage/index.asp
you can get the .pdf of the DLR's Cs of C; which reads exactly as it
did two years ago:

6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card
reader at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket
gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on
the card reader.

That is what it says at the moment - does anyone have a link to a
more up-to-date version where the DLR is exempted? That would be
very useful.

I posted such a link this morning at 10:23. It's
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...e-08-01-02.pdf
If you go to www.tfl.gov.uk and click on Tickets and then on a link on
the right-hand side "See Conditions of Carriage", the latest TfL C-o-C
are the first link, followed admittedly by the 2006 DLR C-o-C which the
TfL ones say that they supersede!

Clearly there is confusion on the TfL site about this. I've flagged
this to them this evening.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

DLR Oyster validator
 

On Feb 29, 10:48*pm, Offramp wrote:
First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged with
fare evasion if you have a valid ticket.
If you go to this page - a current page -http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/carriage/index.asp
you can get the .pdf of the DLR's Cs of C; which reads exactly as it
did two years ago:

6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey. If the ticket gates at stations are open you must
still touch your Oyster card on the card reader.

That is what it says at the moment - does anyone have a link to a more
up-to-date version where the DLR is exempted? That would be very
useful.

Given that all of NR without Oyster can't be included, such conditions
would be nonsensical. If they are not current, as suggested, they
were even more nonsensical when written.


Why does one have to touch in - apart from it being a condition of
your carriage?

If the only reason for a rule is to enforce the rule that you must
follow the rules, then the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
(Yeah, with Oyster I often think that they have.)

Or perhaps a sensible reason might be to make sure that people pay the
right fare. People who have a valid travelcard have paid the fare and
can demonstrate that they have, to the satisfaction of anyone who has
ever checked tickets on on the DLR, and are not punished for not
touching in. Do you seriously think that they should be?


Someone with a zone 2 weekly, who is travelling from Prince Regent to
Canary Wharf, and who does not swipe in at Prince Regent "because I
don't have to touch in there" and then gets a call on his mobile to
meet a friend at Camden Town, and changes at Bank and travels to that
meeting and touches out at Camden Town... what is that? Fare evasion
or a penalty fare?

If they are doing that, they are not travelling within the zones
covered by their travelcard. The call must have come while they still
were, or else they are already evading their fare. So they touch in
at the station where they were originally planning to get off and
start again.


Or someone has a zones 1 & 2 travelcard and is stopped by an RCI
between Euston Square and King's Cross, and has travelled from
Heathrow, but who says he has travelled from Prince Regent, "because I
don't have to touch in there," is he liable for a penalty fare (or
prosecution)?

Should be liable for prosecution, but should have been checked between
Heathrow and zone 2. How would he have got in anyway?

You have highlighted the different assumptions of guilt between PAYG
and travelcards, but the situation is the same as it would with a
paper travelcard. Swap an NR zone 6 station for Heathrow and how
could he touch in?


Just a reminder - the last one:
"When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and National
Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey."

Some people seem to think this is a massive disaster - it may be, but
it is a c of c.

It's also impossible for many journeys. If, as suggested, it's out of
date, then it was even more impossible when it was written, because
there were less Oyster validators in the past.

DLR Oyster validator
 

On 29 Feb, 23:42, "Richard J." wrote:
Offramp wrote:
First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged
with fare evasion if you have a valid ticket.
If you go to this page - a current page -
http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/carriage/index.asp
you can get the .pdf of the DLR's Cs of C; which reads exactly as it
did two years ago:

6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card
reader at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket
gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on
the card reader.

That is what it says at the moment - does anyone have a link to a
more up-to-date version where the DLR is exempted? That would be
very useful.

I posted such a link this morning at 10:23. *It'shttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage-08-01-0...
If you go towww.tfl.gov.ukand click on Tickets and then on a link on
the right-hand side "See Conditions of Carriage", the latest TfL C-o-C
are the first link, followed admittedly by the 2006 DLR C-o-C which the
TfL ones say that they supersede!

Clearly there is confusion on the TfL site about this. *I've flagged
this to them this evening.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Has anyone yet responded?
Presumably, in your world, the latest Cs-o-C say that you have to
touch in everywhere with whatever ticket UNLESS you are on the DLR,
where you only touch in if you have PAYG.

DLR Oyster validator
 

Offramp wrote:
On 29 Feb, 23:42, "Richard J." wrote:
Offramp wrote:
First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged
with fare evasion if you have a valid ticket.
If you go to this page - a current page -
http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/carriage/index.asp
you can get the .pdf of the DLR's Cs of C; which reads exactly as it
did two years ago:

6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card
reader at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket
gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on
the card reader.

That is what it says at the moment - does anyone have a link to a
more up-to-date version where the DLR is exempted? That would be
very useful.

I posted such a link this morning at 10:23.
It'shttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage-08-01-0...
If you go towww.tfl.gov.ukand click on Tickets and then on a link on
the right-hand side "See Conditions of Carriage", the latest TfL
C-o-C
are the first link, followed admittedly by the 2006 DLR C-o-C which
the TfL ones say that they supersede!

Clearly there is confusion on the TfL site about this. I've flagged
this to them this evening.

Has anyone yet responded?

No, not yet.

Presumably, in your world, the latest Cs-o-C say that you have to
touch in everywhere with whatever ticket UNLESS you are on the DLR,
where you only touch in if you have PAYG.

Why don't you read the TfL C-O-C yourself? It omits the DLR from the
services where you have to touch in when using a season ticket on Oyster,
but (I've just noticed on re-reading it) it also fails to mention touching
in on DLR when using PAYG!

--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

DLR Oyster validator
 

On Mar 8, 12:19*am, "Richard J." wrote:
Offramp wrote:
On 29 Feb, 23:42, "Richard J." wrote:
Offramp wrote:
First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged
with fare evasion if you have a valid ticket.
If you go to this page - a current page -
http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/carriage/index.asp
you can get the .pdf of the DLR's Cs of C; which reads exactly as it
did two years ago:

6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card
reader at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket
gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on
the card reader.

That is what it says at the moment - does anyone have a link to a
more up-to-date version where the DLR is exempted? That would be
very useful.

I posted such a link this morning at 10:23.
It'shttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage-08-01-0...
If you go towww.tfl.gov.ukandclick on Tickets and then on a link on
the right-hand side "See Conditions of Carriage", the latest TfL
C-o-C
are the first link, followed admittedly by the 2006 DLR C-o-C which
the TfL ones say that they supersede!

Clearly there is confusion on the TfL site about this. I've flagged
this to them this evening.

Has anyone yet responded?

No, not yet.

Presumably, in your world, the latest Cs-o-C say that you have to
touch in everywhere with whatever ticket UNLESS you are on the DLR,
where you only touch in if you have PAYG.

Why don't you read the TfL C-O-C yourself? *It omits the DLR from the
services where you have to touch in when using a season ticket on Oyster,
but (I've just noticed on re-reading it) it also fails to mention touching
in on DLR when using PAYG!

Whatever they say seems to be nonsense. If extending beyond zones on
LU or DLR, you do have to touch in on the DLR with a travelcard.

If not extending, and travelling where your travelcard is valid, you
don't need to touch in at all on LU or NR or DLR or bendy buses except
to get through barriers.

As for "... touch in everywhere with whatever ticket UNLESS you are on
the DLR ...", that's still rather difficult at places without Oyster
pads.

DLR Oyster validator
 

On Mar 8, 12:55 am, MIG wrote:
On Mar 8, 12:19 am, "Richard J." wrote:



Offramp wrote:
On 29 Feb, 23:42, "Richard J." wrote:
Offramp wrote:
First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged
with fare evasion if you have a valid ticket.
If you go to this page - a current page -
http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/carriage/index.asp
you can get the .pdf of the DLR's Cs of C; which reads exactly as it
did two years ago:

6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card
reader at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket
gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on
the card reader.

That is what it says at the moment - does anyone have a link to a
more up-to-date version where the DLR is exempted? That would be
very useful.

I posted such a link this morning at 10:23.
It'shttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage-08-01-0...
If you go towww.tfl.gov.ukandclickon Tickets and then on a link on
the right-hand side "See Conditions of Carriage", the latest TfL
C-o-C
are the first link, followed admittedly by the 2006 DLR C-o-C which
the TfL ones say that they supersede!

Clearly there is confusion on the TfL site about this. I've flagged
this to them this evening.

Has anyone yet responded?

No, not yet.

Presumably, in your world, the latest Cs-o-C say that you have to
touch in everywhere with whatever ticket UNLESS you are on the DLR,
where you only touch in if you have PAYG.

Why don't you read the TfL C-O-C yourself? It omits the DLR from the
services where you have to touch in when using a season ticket on Oyster,
but (I've just noticed on re-reading it) it also fails to mention touching
in on DLR when using PAYG!

Whatever they say seems to be nonsense. If extending beyond zones on
LU or DLR, you do have to touch in on the DLR with a travelcard.

If not extending, and travelling where your travelcard is valid, you
don't need to touch in at all on LU or NR or DLR or bendy buses except
to get through barriers.

As for "... touch in everywhere with whatever ticket UNLESS you are on
the DLR ...", that's still rather difficult at places without Oyster
pads.

http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/pdf/cond...f_carriage.pdf
"6.6. Using a season ticket on your Oyster card
6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey. If the ticket gates at stations are open you must
still touch your Oyster card on the card reader."

That's "Using a season ticket on your Oyster card."

Otherwise no one needs to touch in anywhere; he, when asked, just
needs to say he has travelled from a DLR station.

DLR Oyster validator
 

On Mar 8, 1:16*am, Offramp wrote:
On Mar 8, 12:55 am, MIG wrote:





On Mar 8, 12:19 am, "Richard J." wrote:

Offramp wrote:
On 29 Feb, 23:42, "Richard J." wrote:
Offramp wrote:
First of all I should point out to you that you cannot be charged
with fare evasion if you have a valid ticket.
If you go to this page - a current page -
http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/carriage/index.asp
you can get the .pdf of the DLR's Cs of C; which reads exactly as it
did two years ago:

6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card
reader at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket
gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on
the card reader.

That is what it says at the moment - does anyone have a link to a
more up-to-date version where the DLR is exempted? That would be
very useful.

I posted such a link this morning at 10:23.
It'shttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage-08-01-0...
If you go towww.tfl.gov.ukandclickonTickets and then on a link on
the right-hand side "See Conditions of Carriage", the latest TfL
C-o-C
are the first link, followed admittedly by the 2006 DLR C-o-C which
the TfL ones say that they supersede!

Clearly there is confusion on the TfL site about this. I've flagged
this to them this evening.

Has anyone yet responded?

No, not yet.

Presumably, in your world, the latest Cs-o-C say that you have to
touch in everywhere with whatever ticket UNLESS you are on the DLR,
where you only touch in if you have PAYG.

Why don't you read the TfL C-O-C yourself? *It omits the DLR from the
services where you have to touch in when using a season ticket on Oyster,
but (I've just noticed on re-reading it) it also fails to mention touching
in on DLR when using PAYG!

Whatever they say seems to be nonsense. *If extending beyond zones on
LU or DLR, you do have to touch in on the DLR with a travelcard.

If not extending, and travelling where your travelcard is valid, you
don't need to touch in at all on LU or NR or DLR or bendy buses except
to get through barriers.

As for "... touch in everywhere with whatever ticket UNLESS you are on
the DLR ...", that's still rather difficult at places without Oyster
pads.

http://getoutmore.dlr.co.uk/pdf/cond...f_carriage.pdf
"6.6. Using a season ticket on your Oyster card
6.6.1. When you use Docklands Light Railway, London Underground and
National Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the card reader at both
the start and the end
of your journey. If the ticket gates at stations are open you must
still touch your Oyster card on the card reader."

That's "Using a season ticket on your Oyster card."

Otherwise no one needs to touch in anywhere; he, when asked, just
needs to say he has travelled from a DLR station.-

I can't think of any situation in which someone with a travelcard
valid for their DLR journey could avoid any fares by not touching in.
They would be charged a maximum fare if they touched out somewhere
that required PAYG on top of their travelcard.

You still seem to be convinced that any non-compliance with
(nonsensical) ToCs must be fare evasion and that "when asked" implies
being caught out somehow.

The assumption of guilt when stepping onto public transport is one of
the things that makes it unattractive, but even RPOs don't take the
attitude to touching in with travelcards that you do.

DLR Oyster validator
 

On Mar 8, 1:46 am, MIG wrote:
On Mar 8, 1:16 am, Offramp wrote:

You still seem to be convinced that any non-compliance with
(nonsensical) ToCs must be fare evasion and that "when asked" implies
being caught out somehow.

Your argument - and other posters' arguments - is based on the premise
that the Cs-o-C are nonsensical.

Imagine that a man is checked on a train between Bank and London
Bridge. He has a zone 1 and 2 weekly. The Inspector sees that he has
not touched in. The man says that he has travelled from Prince Regent,
but the Inspector checks the man's address and he in fact lives at
Finchley Central, and is registered there. In fact he lives on Station
Road, the very side where there are no gates!

The travel history shows touching validators only at London Bridge.

How does the man prove where he has travelled from in order to avoid a
PFN or prosecution?

DLR Oyster validator
 

"Offramp" wrote in message
...
On Mar 8, 1:46 am, MIG wrote:
On Mar 8, 1:16 am, Offramp wrote:

You still seem to be convinced that any non-compliance with
(nonsensical) ToCs must be fare evasion and that "when asked" implies
being caught out somehow.

Your argument - and other posters' arguments - is based on the premise
that the Cs-o-C are nonsensical.

County Sheriffs of Colorado?
Canadian Sidecar Owners Club?
Consolidated Space Operations Centers?

Nope, I give up

tim

DLR Oyster validator
 

On Mar 8, 4:55 pm, "tim \(not at home\)"
wrote:
"Offramp" wrote in message

...

On Mar 8, 1:46 am, MIG wrote:
On Mar 8, 1:16 am, Offramp wrote:

You still seem to be convinced that any non-compliance with
(nonsensical) ToCs must be fare evasion and that "when asked" implies
being caught out somehow.

Your argument - and other posters' arguments - is based on the premise
that the Cs-o-C are nonsensical.

County Sheriffs of Colorado?
Canadian Sidecar Owners Club?
Consolidated Space Operations Centers?

Nope, I give up

tim

It is actually short for "Conditions of Carriage."

DLR Oyster validator
 

On Mar 8, 4:38*pm, Offramp wrote:
On Mar 8, 1:46 am, MIG wrote:

On Mar 8, 1:16 am, Offramp wrote:
You still seem to be convinced that any non-compliance with
(nonsensical) ToCs must be fare evasion and that "when asked" implies
being caught out somehow.

Your argument - and other posters' arguments - is based on the premise
that the Cs-o-C are nonsensical.

Imagine that *a man is checked on a train between Bank and London
Bridge. He has a zone 1 and 2 weekly. The Inspector sees that he has
not touched in. The man says that he has travelled from Prince Regent,
but the Inspector checks the man's address and he in fact lives at
Finchley Central, and is registered there. In fact he lives on Station
Road, the very side where there are no gates!

The travel history shows touching validators only at London Bridge.

How does the man prove where he has travelled from in order to avoid a
PFN or prosecution?

He doesn't have to, any more than he would need to if his travelcard
was on paper or if he had travelled on NR. Green light, no address
check, everyone happy.

By your logic, why not just arrest everyone in the world on the
grounds that they can't prove that they didn't travel from Finchley
Central without a valid ticket? None of them could prove it.

DLR Oyster validator
 

On Mar 8, 7:10 pm, MIG wrote:
On Mar 8, 4:38 pm, Offramp wrote:



On Mar 8, 1:46 am, MIG wrote:

On Mar 8, 1:16 am, Offramp wrote:
You still seem to be convinced that any non-compliance with
(nonsensical) ToCs must be fare evasion and that "when asked" implies
being caught out somehow.

Your argument - and other posters' arguments - is based on the premise
that the Cs-o-C are nonsensical.

Imagine that a man is checked on a train between Bank and London
Bridge. He has a zone 1 and 2 weekly. The Inspector sees that he has
not touched in. The man says that he has travelled from Prince Regent,
but the Inspector checks the man's address and he in fact lives at
Finchley Central, and is registered there. In fact he lives on Station
Road, the very side where there are no gates!

The travel history shows touching validators only at London Bridge.

How does the man prove where he has travelled from in order to avoid a
PFN or prosecution?

He doesn't have to, any more than he would need to if his travelcard
was on paper or if he had travelled on NR. Green light, no address
check, everyone happy.

Inspectors don't just look for a green light - they are also looking
for where the Oyster was last used (among other things). An inspector
would ask if there was no station of ingress shown and may well ask
for an address if he thinks fare evasion has taken place.

By your logic, why not just arrest everyone in the world on the
grounds that they can't prove that they didn't travel from Finchley
Central without a valid ticket? None of them could prove it.

There is no need to arrest everyone in the world, and I don't quite
see how my logic and the logic of the conditions of carriage could be
stretched to being a demand to arrest everyone in the world.
What the Cs-of-C ask for is that everyone with an Oyster has to touch
in where there are validators. It is in the section under 'Season
tickets'.
That way, our hypothetical man who travels from Finchley Central every
day with a zones 1 & 2 weekly, but who says he has travelled from
Prince Regent, can have his penalty fare.

I know that you will reply again saying that the Conditions of
Carriage are nonsensical and that everyone is happy, but those are
things for you to take up with Tfl's legal department. All I have done
is point out the relevant section and given at least one good reason
why that section would be there.

DLR Oyster validator
 

On Mar 8, 7:58*pm, Offramp wrote:
On Mar 8, 7:10 pm, MIG wrote:





On Mar 8, 4:38 pm, Offramp wrote:

On Mar 8, 1:46 am, MIG wrote:

On Mar 8, 1:16 am, Offramp wrote:
You still seem to be convinced that any non-compliance with
(nonsensical) ToCs must be fare evasion and that "when asked" implies
being caught out somehow.

Your argument - and other posters' arguments - is based on the premise
that the Cs-o-C are nonsensical.

Imagine that *a man is checked on a train between Bank and London
Bridge. He has a zone 1 and 2 weekly. The Inspector sees that he has
not touched in. The man says that he has travelled from Prince Regent,
but the Inspector checks the man's address and he in fact lives at
Finchley Central, and is registered there. In fact he lives on Station
Road, the very side where there are no gates!

The travel history shows touching validators only at London Bridge.

How does the man prove where he has travelled from in order to avoid a
PFN or prosecution?

He doesn't have to, any more than he would need to if his travelcard
was on paper or if he had travelled on NR. *Green light, no address
check, everyone happy.

Inspectors don't just look for a green light - they are also looking
for where the Oyster was last used (among other things). An inspector
would ask if there was no station of ingress shown and may well ask
for an address if he thinks fare evasion has taken place.

By your logic, why not just arrest everyone in the world on the
grounds that they can't prove that they didn't travel from Finchley
Central without a valid ticket? *None of them could prove it.

There is no need to arrest everyone in the world, and I don't quite
see how my logic and the logic of the conditions of carriage could be
stretched to being a demand to arrest everyone in the world.
What the Cs-of-C ask for is that everyone with an Oyster has to touch
in where there are validators. It is in the section under 'Season
tickets'.
That way, our hypothetical man who travels from Finchley Central every
day with a zones 1 & 2 weekly, but who says he has travelled from
Prince Regent, can have his penalty fare.

I know that you will reply again saying that the Conditions of
Carriage are nonsensical and that everyone is happy, but those are
things for you to take up with Tfl's legal department. All I have done
is point out the relevant section and given at least one good reason
why that section would be there

You accused people of fare-evasion for using travelcards on the DLR
without touching in.

I asked you for an example of how someone whose DLR journey is covered
by a travelcard can evade a fare by not touching in on the DLR.

Your response involved a simple case of fare-evasion between Finchley
Central and zone 2 and no DLR travel.