Northern Line near collision
 

On 14 Jun 2007, 15:34, Christopher A.Lee wrote:
One wonders why the motorman didn't notice there was no signal at that
end of the platform.

The RAIB final report is out:
http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/...port062008.cfm

The basic thrust is that he was looking at the CCTV monitor in the cab
(where a repeater signal was visible) and in a hurry to leave, so
didn't notice the stop disc or lack of a starter signal.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Northern Line near collision
 

On Mar 11, 9:31*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 14 Jun 2007, 15:34, Christopher A.Lee wrote:

One wonders why the motorman didn't notice there was no signal at that
end of the platform.

The RAIB final report is out:http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/...ts/reports_200...

The basic thrust is that he was looking at the CCTV monitor in the cab
(where a repeater signal was visible) and in a hurry to leave, so
didn't notice the stop disc or lack of a starter signal.

U

--http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

The RAIB also point out that it is easier psychologically to notice
things that are there than things which are absent. I think this
report is a model of clarity in detailing all of the factors that go
together to make up the fatal cocktail that lies behind many
accidents.
It demonstrates how right it was to create a blame free accident
investigation culture light years away from the BTP treating
everything as a scene of crime and participants enforced silence on
their lawyers or unions advice. In the not so good old days the recent
problems with flying ISO boxes would have assumed the significance of
the corner gauge cracking shut down, Well done the RAIB.

Northern Line near collision
 

"Mr Thant" wrote in message
...
On 14 Jun 2007, 15:34, Christopher A.Lee wrote:
One wonders why the motorman didn't notice there was no signal at that
end of the platform.

The RAIB final report is out:
http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/...port062008.cfm


Did the driver get the sack over that??

Northern Line near collision
 

On 12 Mar, 08:23, Mwmbwls wrote:
On Mar 11, 9:31*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 14 Jun 2007, 15:34, Christopher A.Lee wrote:

One wonders why the motorman didn't notice there was no signal at that
end of the platform.

The RAIB final report is out:http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/...ts/reports_200...

The basic thrust is that he was looking at the CCTV monitor in the cab
(where a repeater signal was visible) and in a hurry to leave, so
didn't notice the stop disc or lack of a starter signal.

U

--http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

The RAIB also point out that it is easier psychologically to notice
things that are there than things which are absent. I think this
report is a model of clarity in detailing all of the factors that go
together to make up the fatal cocktail that lies behind many
accidents.
It demonstrates how right it was to create a blame free accident
investigation culture light years away from the BTP treating
everything as a scene of crime and participants enforced silence on
their lawyers or unions advice. In the not so good old days the recent
problems with flying ISO boxes would have assumed the significance of
the corner gauge cracking shut down, Well done the RAIB.

It kind of demonstrates how a safety feature can indirectly cause an
accident, given that without the CCTV he would have looked for, and
noticed the lack of, the signal.

More importantly, like other near accidents (eg the opening of the
rear doors over the junction in the dark at Hither Green when the
driver forgot the length of the train), it couldn't have happened if
they still had guards.

Northern Line near collision
 

On 12 Mar, 19:57, MIG wrote:
On 12 Mar, 08:23, Mwmbwls wrote:





On Mar 11, 9:31*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 14 Jun 2007, 15:34, Christopher A.Lee wrote:

One wonders why the motorman didn't notice there was no signal at that
end of the platform.

The RAIB final report is out:http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/...ts/reports_200...

The basic thrust is that he was looking at the CCTV monitor in the cab
(where a repeater signal was visible) and in a hurry to leave, so
didn't notice the stop disc or lack of a starter signal.

U

--http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

The RAIB also point out that it is easier psychologically to notice
things that are there than things which are absent. I think this
report is a model of clarity in detailing all of the factors that go
together to make up the fatal cocktail that lies behind many
accidents.
It demonstrates how right it was to create a blame free accident
investigation culture light years away from the BTP treating
everything as a scene of crime and participants enforced silence on
their lawyers or unions advice. In the not so good old days the recent
problems with flying ISO boxes would have assumed the significance of
the corner gauge cracking shut down, Well done the RAIB.

It kind of demonstrates how a safety feature can indirectly cause an
accident, given that without the CCTV he would have looked for, and
noticed the lack of, the signal.

More importantly, like other near accidents (eg the opening of the
rear doors over the junction in the dark at Hither Green when the
driver forgot the length of the train), it couldn't have happened if
they still had guards.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My congratulations to the RAIB for the quality of their investigation,
too. This is, I feel, the quiet revolution of recent years.

However, I feel that an obvious suggestion has been overlooked. Why
not paint the end walls of platform tunnels a distinctive colour to
indicate the normal direction of travel - or perhaps to mark ends from
which movements are not normally carried out? The driver would have
clocked he was heading the wrong way down the platform straight away.

Rob.

Northern Line near collision
 

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 12:57:10 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be MIG
wrote this:-

More importantly, like other near accidents (eg the opening of the
rear doors over the junction in the dark at Hither Green when the
driver forgot the length of the train), it couldn't have happened if
they still had guards.

Couldn't?

More likely not to have happened, quite likely, but guards have been
responsible for a number of incidents which could have been
dangerous. IIRC at least one of the door opening incidents on London
Transport was caused by a guard, perhaps one of the ones involving a
moving train.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Northern Line near collision
 

On 12 Mar, 20:44, wrote:
On 12 Mar, 19:57, MIG wrote:





On 12 Mar, 08:23, Mwmbwls wrote:

On Mar 11, 9:31*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 14 Jun 2007, 15:34, Christopher A.Lee wrote:

One wonders why the motorman didn't notice there was no signal at that
end of the platform.

The RAIB final report is out:http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/...ts/reports_200...

The basic thrust is that he was looking at the CCTV monitor in the cab
(where a repeater signal was visible) and in a hurry to leave, so
didn't notice the stop disc or lack of a starter signal.

U

--http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

The RAIB also point out that it is easier psychologically to notice
things that are there than things which are absent. I think this
report is a model of clarity in detailing all of the factors that go
together to make up the fatal cocktail that lies behind many
accidents.
It demonstrates how right it was to create a blame free accident
investigation culture light years away from the BTP treating
everything as a scene of crime and participants enforced silence on
their lawyers or unions advice. In the not so good old days the recent
problems with flying ISO boxes would have assumed the significance of
the corner gauge cracking shut down, Well done the RAIB.

It kind of demonstrates how a safety feature can indirectly cause an
accident, given that without the CCTV he would have looked for, and
noticed the lack of, the signal.

More importantly, like other near accidents (eg the opening of the
rear doors over the junction in the dark at Hither Green when the
driver forgot the length of the train), it couldn't have happened if
they still had guards.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My congratulations to the RAIB for the quality of their investigation,
too. This is, I feel, the quiet revolution of recent years.

However, I feel that an obvious suggestion has been overlooked. Why
not paint the end walls of platform tunnels a distinctive colour to
indicate the normal direction of travel - or perhaps to mark ends from
which movements are not normally carried out? The driver would have
clocked he was heading the wrong way down the platform straight away.

Rob.

Yeah, I thought that. At a cost of a pot of paint and a few hours'
work per line. Could just be a coloured square or something.

Northern Line near collision
 

MIG wrote:
On 12 Mar, 20:44, wrote:

However, I feel that an obvious suggestion has been overlooked. Why
not paint the end walls of platform tunnels a distinctive colour to
indicate the normal direction of travel - or perhaps to mark ends
from which movements are not normally carried out? The driver would
have clocked he was heading the wrong way down the platform straight
away.

Yeah, I thought that. At a cost of a pot of paint and a few hours'
work per line. Could just be a coloured square or something.

A red disc with a white cross bar is more traditional.

Northern Line near collision
 

On 13 Mar, 12:46, "John Rowland"
wrote:
MIG wrote:
On 12 Mar, 20:44, wrote:

However, I feel that an obvious suggestion has been overlooked. Why
not paint the end walls of platform tunnels a distinctive colour to
indicate the normal direction of travel - or perhaps to mark ends
from which movements are not normally carried out? The driver would
have clocked he was heading the wrong way down the platform straight
away.

Yeah, I thought that. *At a cost of a pot of paint and a few hours'
work per line. *Could just be a coloured square or something.

A red disc with a white cross bar is more traditional.

Two pots of paint then.

Northern Line near collision
 

On Thu, 13 Mar 2008, MIG wrote:

On 13 Mar, 12:46, "John Rowland"
wrote:
MIG wrote:
On 12 Mar, 20:44, wrote:

However, I feel that an obvious suggestion has been overlooked. Why
not paint the end walls of platform tunnels a distinctive colour to
indicate the normal direction of travel - or perhaps to mark ends
from which movements are not normally carried out? The driver would
have clocked he was heading the wrong way down the platform straight
away.

Yeah, I thought that. *At a cost of a pot of paint and a few hours'
work per line. *Could just be a coloured square or something.

A red disc with a white cross bar is more traditional.

Two pots of paint then.

Or you write on the floor by the cab door 'NORTH' or 'SOUTH' as
appropriate. or 'HIGH BARNET' or 'MORDEN', whichever you like.

My idea was to mark the insides of tunnels in such a way that it's obvious
when you're running the wrong way, even if just for the first hundred
metres after a platform. A load of cat's eyes on the walls, which you'd
only see when going the wrong way, would do it. Or an equivalent of the
'no entry' sign that was on the tunnel wall, but not seen, that can be
seen in peripheral vision - maybe painting the 50 metres of tunnel at the
wrong end of the platform bright orange?

tom

--
The Web isn't hypertext, it's DECORATED DIRECTORIES! -- Ted Nelson

Northern Line near collision
 

John Rowland wrote:
MIG wrote:
On 12 Mar, 20:44, wrote:

However, I feel that an obvious suggestion has been overlooked. Why
not paint the end walls of platform tunnels a distinctive colour to
indicate the normal direction of travel - or perhaps to mark ends
from which movements are not normally carried out? The driver would
have clocked he was heading the wrong way down the platform straight
away.

Yeah, I thought that. At a cost of a pot of paint and a few hours'
work per line. Could just be a coloured square or something.

A red disc with a white cross bar is more traditional.

Or you could have repeater signals in the correct direction and a sign
visible from the cab saying STOP in the wrong direction. Oh, they had those
already, so what makes people think another sign would work?

When we discussed this in June (thread at http://tinyurl.com/2v5qcb ), there
was a rumour that there was a fixed red signal next to the STOP sign, but it
had been bagged over.

My photo of the site at which is at
http://rjnews.fotopic.net/p42305755.html does indeed show what looks like a
bagged object. It's also just visible in the photo of the STOP sign in the
AAIB report, though no mention is made of it. They say in paragraph 109
that it would not be worth the cost of installing a trainstop with a signal,
but they don't comment on whether a fixed red signal without a trainstop
would be better than an unlit STOP sign. My feeling is that this would be a
better solution than painting the headwalls in distinctive colours.

(My photo also shows the sodium lights illuminating the junction, referred
to in the AAIB report.)
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Northern Line near collision
 

Richard J. wrote:

Or you could have repeater signals in the correct direction and a sign
visible from the cab saying STOP in the wrong direction. Oh, they
had those already, so what makes people think another sign would work?

When we discussed this in June (thread at http://tinyurl.com/2v5qcb
), there was a rumour that there was a fixed red signal next to the
STOP sign, but it had been bagged over.

My photo of the site at which is at
http://rjnews.fotopic.net/p42305755.html does indeed show what looks
like a bagged object. It's also just visible in the photo of the
STOP sign in the AAIB report, though no mention is made of it. They
say in paragraph 109 that it would not be worth the cost of
installing a trainstop with a signal, but they don't comment on
whether a fixed red signal without a trainstop would be better than
an unlit STOP sign. My feeling is that this would be a better
solution than painting the headwalls in distinctive colours.

Would a sign such as that one be a reflective material like a road sign, or
just painted normally? As Tom has suggested, maybe red 'cats eyes' might
stand out more, and be cheaper to install than a fixed light, I suppose
whatever was done the cleaning requirement would be similar?

Paul S

Northern Line near collision
 

On 13 Mar, 21:18, "Richard J." wrote:
John Rowland wrote:
MIG wrote:
On 12 Mar, 20:44, wrote:

However, I feel that an obvious suggestion has been overlooked. Why
not paint the end walls of platform tunnels a distinctive colour to
indicate the normal direction of travel - or perhaps to mark ends
from which movements are not normally carried out? The driver would
have clocked he was heading the wrong way down the platform straight
away.

Yeah, I thought that. *At a cost of a pot of paint and a few hours'
work per line. *Could just be a coloured square or something.

A red disc with a white cross bar is more traditional.

Or you could have repeater signals in the correct direction and a sign
visible from the cab saying STOP in the wrong direction. *Oh, they had those
already, so what makes people think another sign would work?

I and the earlier poster were assuming something visible from the
platform (useful to passengers also) indicating which was the front or
not the front.

The point at which the mistake was made was when walking along the
platform, so that might be the place to prevent it.

Sitting in the cab facing the wrong way is not something that anyone
would be used to, so the warnings wouldn't be familiar, whereas
looking along the platform and finding the right end happens
constantly.

Northern Line near collision
 

MIG wrote:
On 13 Mar, 12:46, "John Rowland"
wrote:
MIG wrote:
On 12 Mar, 20:44, wrote:

However, I feel that an obvious suggestion has been overlooked. Why
not paint the end walls of platform tunnels a distinctive colour to
indicate the normal direction of travel - or perhaps to mark ends
from which movements are not normally carried out? The driver would
have clocked he was heading the wrong way down the platform
straight away.

Yeah, I thought that. At a cost of a pot of paint and a few hours'
work per line. Could just be a coloured square or something.

A red disc with a white cross bar is more traditional.

Two pots of paint then.

Or you could just buy the signs in from the Highways Agency - they have lots
of them. Alternatively, put the name of the station across the white cross
bar, and you'd have one of the old-style solid roundels. Just so the driver
never forgets which station he got the sack at.

Northern Line near collision
 

this is off topic kind of, im not very good at staying on topic but i
think theres some kind of clever thing to stop piccadilly line trains
near Earl's Court eastbound/northbound from going into the district
line tunnels which are smaller, something to do with cylinders of
mercury hanging in mid-air somehow, the idea is if the piccadilly line
train goes onto the wrong track the train will be big enough to smash
the cylinders and the mercury short circuits the track so the train
won't go any further, its really clever

so if they can do something like that wouldn't it be no more difficult
to set something up that short circuits if the train goes the wrong
way down the track?

Northern Line near collision
 

MIG wrote:
On 13 Mar, 21:18, "Richard J." wrote:
John Rowland wrote:
MIG wrote:
On 12 Mar, 20:44, wrote:

However, I feel that an obvious suggestion has been overlooked.
Why not paint the end walls of platform tunnels a distinctive
colour to indicate the normal direction of travel - or perhaps to
mark ends from which movements are not normally carried out? The
driver would have clocked he was heading the wrong way down the
platform straight away.

Yeah, I thought that. At a cost of a pot of paint and a few hours'
work per line. Could just be a coloured square or something.

A red disc with a white cross bar is more traditional.

Or you could have repeater signals in the correct direction and a
sign visible from the cab saying STOP in the wrong direction. Oh,
they had those already, so what makes people think another sign
would work?

I and the earlier poster were assuming something visible from the
platform (useful to passengers also) indicating which was the front or
not the front.

The point at which the mistake was made was when walking along the
platform, so that might be the place to prevent it.

It wasn't *the* mistake, it was the first of at least three. Also, since
the driver seems to have turned right without thinking about whether it was
the right direction, why do you suppose that he would have noticed some
feature on the headwall with which he would not normally be familiar?

Sitting in the cab facing the wrong way is not something that anyone
would be used to, so the warnings wouldn't be familiar, whereas
looking along the platform and finding the right end happens
constantly.

No, it happens constantly to *passengers*, but drivers normally join their
trains at a few well-known stations where the knowledge of which way to turn
would not require a conscious process of "finding the right end".

--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Northern Line near collision
 

In message
Sophie wrote:

this is off topic kind of, im not very good at staying on topic but i
think theres some kind of clever thing to stop piccadilly line trains
near Earl's Court eastbound/northbound from going into the district
line tunnels which are smaller, something to do with cylinders of
mercury hanging in mid-air somehow, the idea is if the piccadilly line
train goes onto the wrong track the train will be big enough to smash
the cylinders and the mercury short circuits the track so the train
won't go any further, its really clever

so if they can do something like that wouldn't it be no more difficult
to set something up that short circuits if the train goes the wrong
way down the track?

Cost a fortune in mercury because the train would trip it evry time it passed
regardless of the direction of travel. The point of the Piccadilly line
devices is that they are high enough for tube trains to pass under but the
taller suface stock will hit them.

To be technical they don't short circuit but break a circuit which puts the
signals to red and activates the trip stops.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

Northern Line near collision
 

Graeme Wall wrote:
In message


Sophie wrote:

this is off topic kind of, im not very good at staying on topic but i
think theres some kind of clever thing to stop piccadilly line trains
near Earl's Court eastbound/northbound from going into the district
line tunnels which are smaller, something to do with cylinders of
mercury hanging in mid-air somehow, the idea is if the piccadilly
line train goes onto the wrong track the train will be big enough to
smash the cylinders and the mercury short circuits the track so the
train won't go any further, its really clever

so if they can do something like that wouldn't it be no more
difficult to set something up that short circuits if the train goes
the wrong way down the track?

Cost a fortune in mercury because the train would trip it evry time
it passed regardless of the direction of travel. The point of the
Piccadilly line devices is that they are high enough for tube trains
to pass under but the taller suface stock will hit them.

To be technical they don't short circuit but break a circuit which
puts the signals to red and activates the trip stops.

And because mercury is supposed to be dangerous, they use something else
instead; I think it's now a metal coating inside a glass tube.

But to return to Sophie's suggestion, they could set up something to stop
any train which attempts to go the wrong way. The standard way of doing
this would be a fixed red signal and trainstop, but the RAIB report said
that the costs would not be justified. "The control of the associated train
stop to prevent a northbound train being inappropriately stopped would incur
costs disproportionate to the benefit and the RAIB does not recommend it."
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Northern Line near collision
 

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Thu, 13 Mar 2008, MIG wrote:


Or you write on the floor by the cab door 'NORTH' or 'SOUTH' as
appropriate. or 'HIGH BARNET' or 'MORDEN', whichever you like.


....or just a couple of large white arrows pointing the right way ?
A few minutes work with a stencil and paintpot.

Jim Hawkins