On Thu, 03 Apr 2008 04:21:28 -0700, MIG wrote:
BUT in that case, why only at Bank and only on the DLR? Why can't
they provide them for that purpose on all LU platforms so that you
don't have to go all the way to the exit at the point when you realise
that you are going to use PAYG to complete an unplanned journey (or
extension of a paper travelcard as it happens)?

I believe part of the reason is it's only if leaving Bank by DLR that the
next station is not in Zone 1.

--
Phil Reynolds
mail: (though I'd prefer followups on group)
Web: http://www.tinsleyviaduct.com/phil/
Waltham 66, Emley Moor 69, Droitwich 79, Windows 95

wrote:

Because, as previously stated, you can use the lift at street level in
King William Street and arrive on the dockloands concourse without
having an option of touching in.

That lift only gets you down to the top of the Northern Line lifts,
and you can get to several other lines from there depending on your
level of mobility (the DLR is the only step-free one). So if your
reason was correct the touch pad should be by the lift rather than the
DLR platforms.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On 3 Apr, 14:23, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

MIG wrote:
Last week I saw notices by those readers which suggested that they're
for
Oyster users going out of zone, not people who've come down in the lift.

Yeah, it's possible that you'd enter the system by a cross-platform
interchange and/or ungated station, not needing to touch your Oyster
because of using a travelcard, and then realise that you needed to
travel beyond your zones on LU.
BUT in that case, why only at Bank and only on the DLR?

There aren't actually that many other in station Underground-DLR
interchanges that I can think of - Stratford and Canning Town are the only
ones that spring to mind and I don't know if the latter has any internal
readers, but it did used to have a non-Oyster service.

Canning Town does not have any internal standalone Oyster readers,
though it did when the NLL was open.


Was the original idea perhaps that DLR would be keep distinct and people
expected to always touch in upon entry.


I have *never* heard or read the supposed requirement that you state
anywhere else beforehand, so might I suggest that you may have somehow
come to that erroneous (mis)understanding after having seen the DLR
posters which in fact issue a different instruction - that holders of
period Travelcards on Oyster who are travelling outside their zones on
DLR need to remember to touch-in and out (so as to ensure the correct
excess fare is debited from their PAYG balance).

Why can't
they provide them for that purpose on all LU platforms so that you
don't have to go all the way to the exit at the point when you realise
that you are going to use PAYG to complete an unplanned journey (or
extension of a paper travelcard as it happens)?

Because that would be too convenient for customers?

No. It would create plentiful opportunities for people who's
destination station was ungated (or indeed for those willing to take
more of a risk their origination station was ungated) to abuse the
system by underpaying their fare, by staring or finishing their
journey short.

At interchange stations with internal Oyster readers this 'hole'
already exists - I'm not keen on utl becoming some masterclass for the
dishonest, but ultimately if you think through the system logically
this becomes apparent so I'm not divulging some state secret here. As
Oyster PAYG expands onto the National Rail network this will become a
bigger issue, so TOCs do perhaps have a point when they say they have
concerns.

Of course the way of countering this, by not having standalone readers
at interchange stations, just isn't really practical given the number
of people who may be entering the Tube/DLR network from National Rail
services. Even when PAYG goes Londonwide and there are readers at
every National Rail station in London, there will still be people
arriving on trains from origination stations outside the London zonal
area.

On Apr 3, 7:44*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 3 Apr, 14:23, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

MIG wrote:
Last week I saw notices by those readers which suggested that they're
for
Oyster users going out of zone, not people who've come down in the lift.

Yeah, it's possible that you'd enter the system by a cross-platform
interchange and/or ungated station, not needing to touch your Oyster
because of using a travelcard, and then realise that you needed to
travel beyond your zones on LU.
BUT in that case, why only at Bank and only on the DLR?

There aren't actually that many other in station Underground-DLR
interchanges that I can think of - Stratford and Canning Town are the only
ones that spring to mind and I don't know if the latter has any internal
readers, but it did used to have a non-Oyster service.

Canning Town does not have any internal standalone Oyster readers,
though it did when the NLL was open.



Was the original idea perhaps that DLR would be keep distinct and people
expected to always touch in upon entry.

I have *never* heard or read the supposed requirement that you state
anywhere else beforehand, so might I suggest that you may have somehow
come to that erroneous (mis)understanding after having seen the DLR
posters which in fact issue a different instruction - that holders of
period Travelcards on Oyster who are travelling outside their zones on
DLR need to remember to touch-in and out (so as to ensure the correct
excess fare is debited from their PAYG balance).

Why can't
they provide them for that purpose on all LU platforms so that you
don't have to go all the way to the exit at the point when you realise
that you are going to use PAYG to complete an unplanned journey (or
extension of a paper travelcard as it happens)?

Because that would be too convenient for customers?

No. It would create plentiful opportunities for people who's
destination station was ungated (or indeed for those willing to take
more of a risk their origination station was ungated) to abuse the
system by underpaying their fare, by staring or finishing their
journey short.

Oh come off it. Are you saying that people determined to avoid a fare
wouldn't think it was worth the effort of going to the exit to touch
in, while those trying to pay the right fare should have obstacles put
in their place? This really ain't joined-up.

On Apr 3, 5:55*pm, " wrote:
On 3 Apr, 12:21, MIG wrote:



BUT in that case, why only at Bank and only on the DLR? *Why can't
they provide them for that purpose on all LU platforms so that you
don't have to go all the way to the exit at the point when you realise
that you are going to use PAYG to complete an unplanned journey (or
extension of a paper travelcard as it happens)?

Because, as previously stated, you can use the lift at street level in
King William Street and arrive on the dockloands concourse without
having an option of touching in.

It was me that stated that, and I was contradicted with the suggestion
that it was for out-of-zone travelling.

On 3 Apr, 22:03, MIG wrote:

On Apr 3, 7:44 pm, Mizter T wrote:

On 3 Apr, 14:23, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

MIG wrote:

(snip)

Why can't
they provide them for that purpose on all LU platforms so that you
don't have to go all the way to the exit at the point when you realise
that you are going to use PAYG to complete an unplanned journey (or
extension of a paper travelcard as it happens)?

Because that would be too convenient for customers?

No. It would create plentiful opportunities for people who's
destination station was ungated (or indeed for those willing to take
more of a risk their origination station was ungated) to abuse the
system by underpaying their fare, by staring or finishing their
journey short.

Oh come off it. Are you saying that people determined to avoid a fare
wouldn't think it was worth the effort of going to the exit to touch
in, while those trying to pay the right fare should have obstacles put
in their place? This really ain't joined-up.


I won't come off it and I am thinking in a joined up way. If I'm
reading you right I think you're saying that such people would go to
the gateline and then touch on a standalone reader next to the manual
gate. Well, that would undoubtedly look like suspicious behaviour, and
said person might well have to deal with the station staff on the
gateline who are normally present next to these readers (and new
installations on LO at least that have wide-aisle gates don't have
separate manual gates and hence don't have standalone readers). Sure,
they might well get away with it but it would look pretty fishy and
hence would require some 'balls', and it is also fairly inconvenient
as they'd have to go out of their way up from the platform.

You speak about 'determined' people, I'm more talking about a somewhat
more casual flavour of n'er do wells - those who'd try and get away
with it if they can manage.

Nonetheless the issue I've outlined will unfortunately rear it's head
as and when PAYG rolls out on National Rail with its plethora of
ungated stations, and people change at an intermediate station that is
fitted with standalone readers for interchange traffic. Access to
standalone readers within fare paid areas thus somewhat blunts the max
cash fare 'penalty' disincentive to those who fail to touch-out/in
given that they might be able to fool the system that they have
started or finished their journey when they haven't.

There are a number of ways that this can be tackled, which in essense
boil down to (a) gating more stations - something that I think
passengers who use urban systems in this country are generally
supportive of even if out friend Mr Willms is not, and (b) deploying
ticket checking staff in an intelligent manner (and having more of
them).

I do feel somewhat uneasy about discussing this whole issue on a
public forum, and I have tried to avoid spelling things out precisely
- however as I said above such things can all ultimately be fathomed
out by people without any secret knowledge, and some things may become
more apparent as people make use of the system even if only through
accidental misuse.

I would lastly add that I do always ensure I pay the correct fare and
I do not approve of those who don't.

On Apr 3, 10:59*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 3 Apr, 22:03, MIG wrote:





On Apr 3, 7:44 pm, Mizter T wrote:

On 3 Apr, 14:23, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

MIG wrote:

(snip)

Why can't
they provide them for that purpose on all LU platforms so that you
don't have to go all the way to the exit at the point when you realise
that you are going to use PAYG to complete an unplanned journey (or
extension of a paper travelcard as it happens)?

Because that would be too convenient for customers?

No. It would create plentiful opportunities for people who's
destination station was ungated (or indeed for those willing to take
more of a risk their origination station was ungated) to abuse the
system by underpaying their fare, by staring or finishing their
journey short.

Oh come off it. *Are you saying that people determined to avoid a fare
wouldn't think it was worth the effort of going to the exit to touch
in, while those trying to pay the right fare should have obstacles put
in their place? *This really ain't joined-up.

I won't come off it and I am thinking in a joined up way. If I'm
reading you right I think you're saying that such people would go to
the gateline and then touch on a standalone reader next to the manual
gate. Well, that would undoubtedly look like suspicious behaviour, and
said person might well have to deal with the station staff on the
gateline who are normally present next to these readers (and new
installations on LO at least that have wide-aisle gates don't have
separate manual gates and hence don't have standalone readers). Sure,
they might well get away with it but it would look pretty fishy and
hence would require some 'balls', and it is also fairly inconvenient
as they'd have to go out of their way up from the platform.

You speak about 'determined' people, I'm more talking about a somewhat
more casual flavour of n'er do wells - those who'd try and get away
with it if they can manage.

Nonetheless the issue I've outlined will unfortunately rear it's head
as and when PAYG rolls out on National Rail with its plethora of
ungated stations, and people change at an intermediate station that is
fitted with standalone readers for interchange traffic. Access to
standalone readers within fare paid areas thus somewhat blunts the max
cash fare 'penalty' disincentive to those who fail to touch-out/in
given that they might be able to fool the system that they have
started or finished their journey when they haven't.


Taking it back a bit, the suggestion was that a reason for the DLR
readers at Bank could be to allow for people who have entered the
system via an ungated or cross-platform station to touch before
extending their travelcard with PAYG.

My point was that this could happen absolutely anywhere on LU, not
just at Bank.

You rightly reminded me that passengers are cheating scumbags. But
that must include passengers at Bank.

I think that the real reason for the Oyster readers at Bank DLR is
because there was a general decision to install readers at any
location where DLR platforms could be accessed, and no allowances were
made for different circumstances (eg being within a gated station). I
really think that's all there is to it.

On 3 Apr, 19:12, Mr Thant
wrote:
wrote:
Because, as previously stated, you can use the lift at street level in
King William Street and arrive on the dockloands concourse without
having an option of touching in.

That lift only gets you down to the top of the Northern Line lifts,
and you can get to several other lines from there depending on your
level of mobility (the DLR is the only step-free one). So if your
reason was correct the touch pad should be by the lift rather than the
DLR platforms.

U

--http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

No, the lift in King William Street takes you down to the paid side of
the Northern ticket hall, behind the main lifts down to the Northern
line. Rather than force people to use that lift to go all the way to
the reader on the manual gate (the lifts were installed to allow
mobility impaired to access the DLR). The lower lift takes you down to
the DLR concourse and past the Oyster reader.

wrote:

On 3 Apr, 19:12, Mr Thant
wrote:
wrote:
Because, as previously stated, you can use the lift at street level in
King William Street and arrive on the dockloands concourse without
having an option of touching in.

That lift only gets you down to the top of the Northern Line lifts,
and you can get to several other lines from there depending on your
level of mobility (the DLR is the only step-free one). So if your
reason was correct the touch pad should be by the lift rather than the
DLR platforms.

U

--http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

No, the lift in King William Street takes you down to the paid side of
the Northern ticket hall, behind the main lifts down to the Northern
line. Rather than force people to use that lift to go all the way to
the reader on the manual gate (the lifts were installed to allow
mobility impaired to access the DLR). The lower lift takes you down to
the DLR concourse and past the Oyster reader.
One thing that is unusual about the DLR validators at Bank is that
they are set to Entry only, unlike all other standalone validators. I
wonder how a DLR traveller using the lift to exit at Bank would avoid
an unresolved journey?

On Thu, 3 Apr 2008 01:34:17 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant wrote:

The explanation for those does seem to be the possibility of arriving
via the lift without passing a gate. *I've never had a problem with
not touching there. * A touch at the DLR one end and LU the other end,
with no touch while changing, has always resulted in me being charged
for one LU/DLR journey at the right price.

There's a big sign by the departures one at Bank that talks about "if
you're going outside your zones", so I think it's for people who have
a Travelcard and have arrived from somewhere ungated where they don't
need to touch in (Waterloo W&C?).

Coming from Waterloo W&C, you'd have had to pass through the gateline
at Bank W&C, wouldn't you?