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Stratford - huh?
Not a part of London I frequent, but yesterday after training down
from Cambridge in the morning, going to an appointment in Hampstead, followed by meeting friends in Lewisham (Tube + DLR), I needed to head to a meeting near Enfield Lock station. I realised my Oyster PAYG probably wouldn't be valid - no problem, thinks I; I'll just get a paper ticket for the extra few stops. Now if I'd had my wits about me in the morning, instead of buying my usual CDR to London Terminals (11.90 with network railcard), I'd have bought a one day travelcard and not bothered using my Oyster. As it was, I found myself arriving at Stratford, already nicely Oyster capped for the day, on a Jubilee Line train, and that's where the fun starts. I got off the train, touched out, and wandered round the foyer area looking for a ticket machine. I couldn't find one, so went to look for details of when my train was. The information provided there needs a bit of detective work to put together - one set of boards provides the times, but not the ultimate destination, so you can't just find your train from the departure screens if, like me, you have no idea where it's terminating. A second poster, elsewhere in the station, provides a list of platform numbers for various destinations. "Perhaps there will be a ticket machine on the platform?", I think, and so head to Platform 12 for my train (which is waiting idly to depart in 10 minutes time). No such luck, so I wander back to the concourse, find a member of staff, and ask where the ticket machines are. She points to one about 10 metres from me, in a part of the station I hadn't even considered looking in, *because it's the other side of a gateline*. "Just touch out and use that one", she says. I tell her I've already touched out, and she asks where I came from, and I tell her. She then says I have to touch out again, "to end my journey", and buy a ticket. I'm a bit incredulous about this, as I've never yet encountered the situation where I have to go through two sets of gatelines to get out, but I do so, and then buy my paper ticket (6 quid - I'm going entirely within the travelcard zones, I'm already capped for the day - not impressed), and use it to get back in through the barriers I just came through. I'm now hoping I won't be charged for an unresolved journey. What an utterly weird setup. Is there anywhere else on the network where you have to go through two sets of gatelines to get out? |
Stratford - huh?
On 2 Apr, 07:27, Sarah Brown wrote: Not a part of London I frequent, but yesterday after training down from Cambridge in the morning, going to an appointment in Hampstead, followed by meeting friends in Lewisham (Tube + DLR), I needed to head to a meeting near Enfield Lock station. I realised my Oyster PAYG probably wouldn't be valid - no problem, thinks I; I'll just get a paper ticket for the extra few stops. Now if I'd had my wits about me in the morning, instead of buying my usual CDR to London Terminals (11.90 with network railcard), I'd have bought a one day travelcard and not bothered using my Oyster. That would have been the best and most likely the cheapest solution. As it was, I found myself arriving at Stratford, already nicely Oyster capped for the day, on a Jubilee Line train, and that's where the fun starts. I got off the train, touched out, and wandered round the foyer area looking for a ticket machine. I couldn't find one, so went to look for details of when my train was. The information provided there needs a bit of detective work to put together - one set of boards provides the times, but not the ultimate destination, so you can't just find your train from the departure screens if, like me, you have no idea where it's terminating. A second poster, elsewhere in the station, provides a list of platform numbers for various destinations. I agree, the information as currently provided is somewhat shabby at Sttratford. "Perhaps there will be a ticket machine on the platform?", I think, and so head to Platform 12 for my train (which is waiting idly to depart in 10 minutes time). No such luck, so I wander back to the concourse, find a member of staff, and ask where the ticket machines are. She points to one about 10 metres from me, in a part of the station I hadn't even considered looking in, *because it's the other side of a gateline*. "Just touch out and use that one", she says. There is actually a ticket machine within the fare paid area to the right of the Jubilee line 'internal gateline' (as you are leaving the Jubilee platforms), next to the current North London Line (aka London Overground) Richmond-bound platform. I tell her I've already touched out, and she asks where I came from, and I tell her. She then says I have to touch out again, "to end my journey", and buy a ticket. The first gateline would have already 'ended your journey' - however going through the second gateline should not have been a problem at all. Stratford is unique in having this double-gateline arrangement for Jubilee passengers (with the second 'internal gateline'), but it has been set up correctly and so should work fine. I'm a bit incredulous about this, as I've never yet encountered the situation where I have to go through two sets of gatelines to get out, but I do so, and then buy my paper ticket (6 quid - I'm going entirely within the travelcard zones, I'm already capped for the day - not impressed), and use it to get back in through the barriers I just came through. I'm now hoping I won't be charged for an unresolved journey. You certainly shouldn't get charged for an unresolved journey at all. Incidentally you bought a zones 1-6 Day Travelcard just for a rail journey to Enfield Lock (and back?) - no need! You could have just bought a single or return rail ticket, or indeed a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard (at £4.80) as appropriate. What an utterly weird setup. Is there anywhere else on the network where you have to go through two sets of gatelines to get out? No. But that's what you have to do at Stratford. |
Stratford - huh?
On 2 Apr, 07:27, Sarah Brown
wrote: I realised my Oyster PAYG probably wouldn't be valid - no problem, thinks I; I'll just get a paper ticket for the extra few stops. Just FYI Oyster is now valid as far as Tottenham Hale on that route, though you'd have to get off the train and touch out to switch tickets. She points to one about 10 metres from me, in a part of the station I hadn't even considered looking in, *because it's the other side of a gateline*. "Just touch out and use that one", she says. That's the main entrance to the station. The bit you call the "foyer" is really just an interchange hall in the current setup, so you weren't outside yet. The lack of information is due to Stratford being a tube station. There is a National Rail ticket office tacked on the side (outdoors, as I recall) to the right as you enter the station. They might have sold you a better ticket. What an utterly weird setup. Is there anywhere else on the network where you have to go through two sets of gatelines to get out? If you get off the H&C at Paddington you'll reach one gateline to get out onto the footbridge. If you continue along the footbridge and go along platforms 2/3 or 4/5 to reach the concourse, you'll find yourself inside another gateline, probably with a ticket that won't activate them. (this is entirely optional as neither set of gates encloses anything) U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Stratford - huh?
In article ,
Mr Thant wrote: That's the main entrance to the station. The bit you call the "foyer" is really just an interchange hall in the current setup, so you weren't outside yet. How come you need to go through a gateline to get into it? Wouldn't the style of optional readers they have at, e.g. Farringdon for interchanging between tube and national rail work there for some reason? |
Stratford - huh?
In article ,
Mizter T wrote: The first gateline would have already 'ended your journey' - however going through the second gateline should not have been a problem at all. Stratford is unique in having this double-gateline arrangement I guess that's why I never encountered it before. Wonder how often they get bemused passengers standing there in puzzlement? You certainly shouldn't get charged for an unresolved journey at all. Incidentally you bought a zones 1-6 Day Travelcard just for a rail journey to Enfield Lock (and back?) - no need! You could have just bought a single or return rail ticket, or indeed a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard (at £4.80) as appropriate. No, I bought a CDR - that was 6 quid (or 10 with a network railcard)! |
Stratford - huh?
Sarah Brown wrote:
In article , Mr Thant wrote: That's the main entrance to the station. The bit you call the "foyer" is really just an interchange hall in the current setup, so you weren't outside yet. How come you need to go through a gateline to get into it? Wouldn't the style of optional readers they have at, e.g. Farringdon for interchanging between tube and national rail work there for some reason? If there weren't dual gating there would be another potentially large hole in the LU paid area. Basically anyone arriving at Stratford off a longer distance mainline service can already enter or leave the Central line without a valid ticket, due to the 'convenient cross platform interchange'. Like Farringdon and many other NR/LU stations of course. IIRC from one of Paul Corfield's posts a while back, it was considered by TfL that they didn't want this loophole for entry to the Jubilee line as well. Which is why there is a separate gateline. Fortunately for Oyster PAYG users like yourself wishing to leave and re-enter at Stratford the 'interchange timer' seems to be set at 30 mins. OTOH I was caught out there a while back when I left the station, shopped, had a coffee and re-entered within 30 mins, my eventual touch out at Kings Cross led to two unresolved journeys due to it being more than two hours since I first started. Easily fixed though at a ticket office. Paul S |
Stratford - huh?
On 2 Apr, 11:50, "Paul Scott" wrote:
*IIRC from one of Paul Corfield's posts a while back, it was considered by TfL that they didn't want this loophole for entry to the Jubilee line as well. Which is why there is a separate gateline. Ah yes: http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....b03078cd695c86 http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....64e004ec598737 (there's a model of Stratford with a circular ticket hall in Acton Museum Depot, though the photo I have doesn't show any features Paul describes) U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Stratford - huh?
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Stratford - huh?
Sarah Brown wrote:
I got off the train, touched out, and wandered round the foyer area looking for a ticket machine. Problem one. Depending on how you look it at, Stratford either has a concorse with a railway line in the middle or an interchange concourse that you arrived in. The problem is no-one cares to make this clear to the passenger who doesn't know the station or what to do. I couldn't find one, so went to look for details of when my train was. The information provided there needs a bit of detective work to put together - one set of boards provides the times, but not the ultimate destination, so you can't just find your train from the departure screens if, like me, you have no idea where it's terminating. A second poster, elsewhere in the station, provides a list of platform numbers for various destinations. Yes Stratford is dire for this sort of thing. A worse problem is that on platform 8, the eastbound metro service, there are no indicators for a large chunk at the east end of the platform, so you're reliant on either announcements or walking down the platform to find it which stations peak hour trains stop at (and that's when the platform is crowded beyond belief). A favourite of the announcers is to override the destination announcement with a generic "don't leave luggage" one because it's clearly not important to tell people where the train is going. I tell her I've already touched out, and she asks where I came from, and I tell her. She then says I have to touch out again, "to end my journey", and buy a ticket. Another problem is that a lot of TfL staff don't seem to know how to correctly use Oyster at complicated stations like Stratford. There are similar problems with the DLR - I've never been sure if one has to touch in twice if starting at Stratford, or how to correctly change from a ticketed mainline service to the DLR on Oyster. "Always touch in, always touch out" becomes a meaningless mantra if you don't know which is which. |
Stratford - huh?
In article ,
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote: Another problem is that a lot of TfL staff don't seem to know how to correctly use Oyster at complicated stations like Stratford. There are similar problems with the DLR - I've never been sure if one has to touch in twice if starting at Stratford, or how to correctly change from a ticketed mainline service to the DLR on Oyster. "Always touch in, always touch out" becomes a meaningless mantra if you don't know which is which. Yeah! Just when I feel I've got the hang of using Oyster PAYG in tricky situations, a trip to Stratford feels like a trick question on the "Oyster users' test". |
Stratford - huh?
On Apr 2, 3:06*pm, Sarah Brown
wrote: In article , Tim Roll-Pickering wrote: Another problem is that a lot of TfL staff don't seem to know how to correctly use Oyster at complicated stations like Stratford. There are similar problems with the DLR - I've never been sure if one has to touch in twice if starting at Stratford, or how to correctly change from a ticketed mainline service to the DLR on Oyster. "Always touch in, always touch out" becomes a meaningless mantra if you don't know which is which. Yeah! Just when I feel I've got the hang of using Oyster PAYG in tricky situations, a trip to Stratford feels like a trick question on the "Oyster users' test". When I've started or finished PAYG DLR journeys at Stratford, I've only ever touched at the barrier with the outside world (by the NR ticket window) and had no problems, although presumably if I'd touched the readers on the platform as well (the old platform by the Central and NR) it would have made no difference unless I hung around having a cup of tea etc and I'd have two unresolved journeys. |
Stratford - huh?
MIG wrote:
When I've started or finished PAYG DLR journeys at Stratford, I've only ever touched at the barrier with the outside world (by the NR ticket window) and had no problems, although presumably if I'd touched the readers on the platform as well (the old platform by the Central and NR) it would have made no difference unless I hung around having a cup of tea etc and I'd have two unresolved journeys. I think a large part of the problem comes if you enter the station from one of the lines. For example does someone changing between the Central and DLR need to touch the readers on both platforms? What about someone who has to come through the Jubilee barriers onto one of the other Oyster lines? What about someone coming off the mainline from further east and starting to use Oyster for the rest of their journey? |
Stratford - huh?
On Apr 2, 6:24*pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote: MIG wrote: When I've started or finished PAYG DLR journeys at Stratford, I've only ever touched at the barrier with the outside world (by the NR ticket window) and had no problems, although presumably if I'd touched the readers on the platform as well (the old platform by the Central and NR) it would have made no difference unless I hung around having a cup of tea etc and I'd have two unresolved journeys. I think a large part of the problem comes if you enter the station from one of the lines. For example does someone changing between the Central and DLR need to touch the readers on both platforms? What about someone who has to come through the Jubilee barriers onto one of the other Oyster lines? What about someone coming off the mainline from further east and starting to use Oyster for the rest of their journey? Touching at the platform readers is only necessary when changing to or from National Rail from or to either Central or DLR (and then only NR east of Stratford?). But because that's deemed too complicated to understand, one is encouraged to keep on and on touching at every reader one passes, putting one at risk of potential unresolved journeys. |
Stratford - huh?
MIG wrote:
Touching at the platform readers is only necessary when changing to or from National Rail from or to either Central or DLR (and then only NR east of Stratford?). I was told one had to always specifically touch in and out for the DLR, hence the tunnel readers at Bank. National Rail services west of Stratford only go to Liverpool Street and this section is covered by Oyster. But because that's deemed too complicated to understand, one is encouraged to keep on and on touching at every reader one passes, putting one at risk of potential unresolved journeys. Indeed - hence the mass confusion. |
Stratford - huh?
On 2 Apr, 11:28, Sarah Brown wrote: In article , Mizter T wrote: The first gateline would have already 'ended your journey' - however going through the second gateline should not have been a problem at all. Stratford is unique in having this double-gateline arrangement I guess that's why I never encountered it before. Wonder how often they get bemused passengers standing there in puzzlement? Fairly often I reckon! You certainly shouldn't get charged for an unresolved journey at all. Incidentally you bought a zones 1-6 Day Travelcard just for a rail journey to Enfield Lock (and back?) - no need! You could have just bought a single or return rail ticket, or indeed a zones 2-6 Day Travelcard (at £4.80) as appropriate. No, I bought a CDR - that was 6 quid (or 10 with a network railcard)! I know what went wrong here. You bought a Stratford to Enfield Lock "via London" CDR - i.e. for a journey that would have routed you via Liverpool Street. What you really wanted was a Stratford to Enfield Lock "not London" ticket for a direct journey, which costs the slightly more reasonable sum of £4.10. I'm guessing you purchased from a ticket machine, based on your comments about the Network Railcard price of £10, which is something would only ever be presented as an option to a passenger by a machine rather than a human (i.e. a ticket clerk, though perhaps some are on the edge of being robots)! I've no idea if the ticket machines at Stratford can be coaxed into selling a Stratford to Enfield Lock "not London" ticket, though it's would appear to be a shame that the machine seemingly didn't explicitly flag up the two options ("via London" and "not London"), or if it did, it didn't do so in an obvious enough manner. That said if it was an LU ticket machine then I can quite imagine it not being programmed to present or sell the two different fares whatsoever (though the whole Network Railcard £10 fare business does make it sound like one of NXEA's Scheidt & Bachmann machines, because that's what they do). As Mr Thant points out elsewhere, as well as the LU ticket office there is also actually a "National Express East Anglia" (NXEA i.e. TOC) ticket office at Stratford which should certainly have been able to sort you out with the right ticket (though to the confusion of many a tourist it won't sell NX coach tickets to Stratford!). The issue is finding it - one must actually leave the main station building and then turn left and left again, and it's in a quasi-shed tagged on to the side of the main building. The LU ticket office may well have been able to sell you the right ticket too, though the LU windows at Stratford are always very busy and they aren't ever going to be as au fait with mainland rail ticketing as the NXEA ticket office next door. Indeed I'd recommend most people to use the NXEA office as there's likely to be less of a queue, they can now do Oyster top-ups, I guess they can sell LU single tickets and they can certainly sell Day Travelcards. The only problem might be getting stuck behind someone trying to buy tickets for some incredibly complex pan-Britain rail journey! |
Stratford - huh?
On 2 Apr, 14:20, "Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote: Sarah Brown wrote: (snip) I tell her I've already touched out, and she asks where I came from, and I tell her. She then says I have to touch out again, "to end my journey", and buy a ticket. Another problem is that a lot of TfL staff don't seem to know how to correctly use Oyster at complicated stations like Stratford. There are similar problems with the DLR - I've never been sure if one has to touch in twice if starting at Stratford, or how to correctly change from a ticketed mainline service to the DLR on Oyster. "Always touch in, always touch out" becomes a meaningless mantra if you don't know which is which. I don't think you should worry about it, I really don't. My impression is that the system is designed to be tolerant of people touching-in or out more than once at stations such as Stratford. I haven't tested this thesis to destruction yet, but I certainly have tested it - touching in or out twice at stations such as Highbury & Islington that have gates and standalone Oyster readers within the gateline (aimed at interchange passengers coming off/heading to National Rail services). Some day I'll put my money where my mouth is and go to Stratford and touch my Oyster everywhere to see just how tolerant the system really is - but all most passengers are ever going to do is touch-in/out twice, once at the gates and again on the DLR or Central line platforms. I've done this to no ill effect, and if you stand close by and watch the number of people who use these standalone readers for just a short while it seems very clear (to me at least) that they aren't all interchanging to/from National Rail services. |
Stratford - huh?
On Apr 3, 1:12*am, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote: MIG wrote: Touching at the platform readers is only necessary when changing to or from National Rail from or to either Central or DLR (and then only NR east of Stratford?). I was told one had to always specifically touch in and out for the DLR, hence the tunnel readers at Bank. The explanation for those does seem to be the possibility of arriving via the lift without passing a gate. I've never had a problem with not touching there. A touch at the DLR one end and LU the other end, with no touch while changing, has always resulted in me being charged for one LU/DLR journey at the right price. National Rail services west of Stratford only go to Liverpool Street and this section is covered by Oyster. But because that's deemed too complicated to understand, one is encouraged to keep on and on touching at every reader one passes, putting one at risk of potential unresolved journeys. Indeed - hence the mass confusion. |
Stratford - huh?
On 3 Apr, 08:56, MIG wrote:
The explanation for those does seem to be the possibility of arriving via the lift without passing a gate. *I've never had a problem with not touching there. * A touch at the DLR one end and LU the other end, with no touch while changing, has always resulted in me being charged for one LU/DLR journey at the right price. There's a big sign by the departures one at Bank that talks about "if you're going outside your zones", so I think it's for people who have a Travelcard and have arrived from somewhere ungated where they don't need to touch in (Waterloo W&C?). U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Stratford - huh?
On 3 Apr, 09:34, Mr Thant wrote: On 3 Apr, 08:56, MIG wrote: The explanation for those does seem to be the possibility of arriving via the lift without passing a gate. I've never had a problem with not touching there. A touch at the DLR one end and LU the other end, with no touch while changing, has always resulted in me being charged for one LU/DLR journey at the right price. There's a big sign by the departures one at Bank that talks about "if you're going outside your zones", so I think it's for people who have a Travelcard and have arrived from somewhere ungated where they don't need to touch in (Waterloo W&C?). Yes, that has to be it (and the W&C platforms at Waterloo are indeed ungated). However if any such passengers touched-in at the beginning of their journey (i.e. at the ungated Tube station, or touched-in on transferring from National Rail to the Tube at say Ealing Broadway) then they wouldn't need to do so again at Bank DLR. There's no harm in providing some readers at Bank for this purpose anyway though. |
Stratford - huh?
In article ,
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote: MIG wrote: Touching at the platform readers is only necessary when changing to or from National Rail from or to either Central or DLR (and then only NR east of Stratford?). I was told one had to always specifically touch in and out for the DLR, hence the tunnel readers at Bank. I've not used those when transfering tube-DLR and not had an unresolved journey on touching out of the DLR, so it seems to be OK. |
Stratford - huh?
In article ,
Mizter T wrote: No, I bought a CDR - that was 6 quid (or 10 with a network railcard)! I know what went wrong here. You bought a Stratford to Enfield Lock "via London" CDR - i.e. for a journey that would have routed you via Liverpool Street. What you really wanted was a Stratford to Enfield Lock "not London" ticket for a direct journey, which costs the slightly more reasonable sum of £4.10. I'm guessing you purchased from a ticket machine, based on your comments about the Network Railcard price of £10, which is something would only ever be presented as an option to a passenger by a machine rather than a human (i.e. a ticket clerk, though perhaps some are on the edge of being robots)! Yes. One thing I'm wondering with hindsight is whether the return portion of my CDR from Cambridge to London Terminals would have actually been valid for a trip from Stratford to Enfield Lock? In the event, I ended up going straight back home from Enfield Lock, changing at Cheshunt, rather than returning to Stratford. |
Stratford - huh?
On 3 Apr, 11:30, Sarah Brown wrote: In article , Mizter T wrote: No, I bought a CDR - that was 6 quid (or 10 with a network railcard)! I know what went wrong here. You bought a Stratford to Enfield Lock "via London" CDR - i.e. for a journey that would have routed you via Liverpool Street. What you really wanted was a Stratford to Enfield Lock "not London" ticket for a direct journey, which costs the slightly more reasonable sum of £4.10. I'm guessing you purchased from a ticket machine, based on your comments about the Network Railcard price of £10, which is something would only ever be presented as an option to a passenger by a machine rather than a human (i.e. a ticket clerk, though perhaps some are on the edge of being robots)! Yes. One thing I'm wondering with hindsight is whether the return portion of my CDR from Cambridge to London Terminals would have actually been valid for a trip from Stratford to Enfield Lock? In the event, I ended up going straight back home from Enfield Lock, changing at Cheshunt, rather than returning to Stratford. I did think of that, it might have been but I'm just not sure about it. |
Stratford - huh?
MIG wrote:
I was told one had to always specifically touch in and out for the DLR, hence the tunnel readers at Bank. The explanation for those does seem to be the possibility of arriving via the lift without passing a gate. I've never had a problem with not touching there. A touch at the DLR one end and LU the other end, with no touch while changing, has always resulted in me being charged for one LU/DLR journey at the right price. Last week I saw notices by those readers which suggested that they're for Oyster users going out of zone, not people who've come down in the lift. |
Stratford - huh?
Sarah Brown wrote:
One thing I'm wondering with hindsight is whether the return portion of my CDR from Cambridge to London Terminals would have actually been valid for a trip from Stratford to Enfield Lock? In the event, I ended up going straight back home from Enfield Lock, changing at Cheshunt, rather than returning to Stratford. I don't think so. The Routeing Guide only gives this one map: http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/R...aps/map_wa.htm Since Stratford isn't a London Terminal, you can't use the branch on the right on your ticket. But you can use your ticket on that line north of Tottenham Hale, so you only needed to buy a Stratford- Tottenham Hale ticket. Also, as I mentioned, PAYG would also cover Stratford-Tottenham Hale, though you'd have to get off your train to touch out, then re-enter with your train ticket and get on the next one. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Stratford - huh?
On 3 Apr, 12:09, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote: MIG wrote: I was told one had to always specifically touch in and out for the DLR, hence the tunnel readers at Bank. The explanation for those does seem to be the possibility of arriving via the lift without passing a gate. *I've never had a problem with not touching there. * A touch at the DLR one end and LU the other end, with no touch while changing, has always resulted in me being charged for one LU/DLR journey at the right price. Last week I saw notices by those readers which suggested that they're for Oyster users going out of zone, not people who've come down in the lift. Yeah, it's possible that you'd enter the system by a cross-platform interchange and/or ungated station, not needing to touch your Oyster because of using a travelcard, and then realise that you needed to travel beyond your zones on LU. BUT in that case, why only at Bank and only on the DLR? Why can't they provide them for that purpose on all LU platforms so that you don't have to go all the way to the exit at the point when you realise that you are going to use PAYG to complete an unplanned journey (or extension of a paper travelcard as it happens)? |
Stratford - huh?
On Apr 3, 12:11 pm, Mr Thant
wrote: Sarah Brown wrote: One thing I'm wondering with hindsight is whether the return portion of my CDR from Cambridge to London Terminals would have actually been valid for a trip from Stratford to Enfield Lock? In the event, I ended up going straight back home from Enfield Lock, changing at Cheshunt, rather than returning to Stratford. I don't think so. The Routeing Guide only gives this one map:http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/R...aps/map_wa.htm Since Stratford isn't a London Terminal, you can't use the branch on the right on your ticket. But you can use your ticket on that line north of Tottenham Hale, so you only needed to buy a Stratford- Tottenham Hale ticket. Also, as I mentioned, PAYG would also cover Stratford-Tottenham Hale, though you'd have to get off your train to touch out, then re-enter with your train ticket and get on the next one. I was in a similar situation recently. I was at North Greenwich and decided to go home to Cambridge via Stratford and Tottenham Hale, mainly for the novelty of travelling a line I rarely use. I hold a Cambridge - London Terminals season, which I know isn't valid via Stratford except for the direct trains that take that route to Liverpool Street on Sundays). So I touched in with my PAYG Oyster at North Greenwich, caught a Jubilee line train and then touched "out" again at Stratford at the Jubilee gateline. This took me to the confusing interchange area/ concourse that Sarah mentioned. Like her I had difficulty finding the right platform for the train: I found the platform number on a monitor but there seemed to be a complete absence of signs telling you how to get there. Eventually I found the platform, in an obscure corner of the station, and boarded my train. I was aware that PAYG was valid between Stratford and Tottenham Hale. As I had touched in at North Greenwich (and because I believed that touching out at the unique Jubilee Line "inner-gateline" at Stratford would be counted as an interchange rather than actually leaving the system) I assumed I was carrying a valid ticket for this short journey. However I got to Tottenham Hale I didn't get off and touch out; I was now on a route covered by my paper season ticket and simply stayed on the train as far as Bishop's Stortford where I changed to a Cambridge train. My thinking was that failing to touch out wouldn't leave me with an unfinished journey since I had touched out at Stratford. So if I've got this right, I made a perfectly legal PAYG journey from Stratford to TH, but where touching out at the TH was entirely optional. Do people agree? PaulO |
Stratford - huh?
MIG wrote:
Last week I saw notices by those readers which suggested that they're for Oyster users going out of zone, not people who've come down in the lift. Yeah, it's possible that you'd enter the system by a cross-platform interchange and/or ungated station, not needing to touch your Oyster because of using a travelcard, and then realise that you needed to travel beyond your zones on LU. BUT in that case, why only at Bank and only on the DLR? There aren't actually that many other in station Underground-DLR interchanges that I can think of - Stratford and Canning Town are the only ones that spring to mind and I don't know if the latter has any internal readers, but it did used to have a non-Oyster service. Was the original idea perhaps that DLR would be keep distinct and people expected to always touch in upon entry. Why can't they provide them for that purpose on all LU platforms so that you don't have to go all the way to the exit at the point when you realise that you are going to use PAYG to complete an unplanned journey (or extension of a paper travelcard as it happens)? Because that would be too convenient for customers? |
Stratford - huh?
On 3 Apr, 14:01, Paul Oter wrote:
On Apr 3, 12:11 pm, Mr Thant wrote: Sarah Brown wrote: One thing I'm wondering with hindsight is whether the return portion of my CDR from Cambridge to London Terminals would have actually been valid for a trip from Stratford to Enfield Lock? In the event, I ended up going straight back home from Enfield Lock, changing at Cheshunt, rather than returning to Stratford. I don't think so. The Routeing Guide only gives this one map:http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/R...aps/map_wa.htm Since Stratford isn't a London Terminal, you can't use the branch on the right on your ticket. But you can use your ticket on that line north of Tottenham Hale, so you only needed to buy a Stratford- Tottenham Hale ticket. Also, as I mentioned, PAYG would also cover Stratford-Tottenham Hale, though you'd have to get off your train to touch out, then re-enter with your train ticket and get on the next one. I was in a similar situation recently. I was at North Greenwich and decided to go home to Cambridge via Stratford and Tottenham Hale, mainly for the novelty of travelling a line I rarely use. I hold a Cambridge - London Terminals season, which I know isn't valid via Stratford except for the direct trains that take that route to Liverpool Street on Sundays). So I touched in with my PAYG Oyster at North Greenwich, caught a Jubilee line train and then touched "out" again at Stratford at the Jubilee gateline. This took me to the confusing interchange area/ concourse that Sarah mentioned. Like her I had difficulty finding the right platform for the train: I found the platform number on a monitor but there seemed to be a complete absence of signs telling you how to get there. Eventually I found the platform, in an obscure corner of the station, and boarded my train. I was aware that PAYG was valid between Stratford and Tottenham Hale. As I had touched in at North Greenwich (and because I believed that touching out at the unique Jubilee Line "inner-gateline" at Stratford would be counted as an interchange rather than actually leaving the system) *I assumed I was carrying a valid ticket for this short journey. However I got to Tottenham Hale I didn't get off and touch out; I was now on a route covered by my paper season ticket and simply stayed on the train as far as Bishop's Stortford where I changed to a Cambridge train. *My thinking was that failing to touch out wouldn't leave me with an unfinished journey since I had touched out at Stratford. So if I've got this right, I made a perfectly legal PAYG journey from Stratford to TH, but where touching out at the TH was entirely optional. Do people agree? PaulO- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - It wouldn't leave an unresolved journey, and the Oyster fare for both journeys is £1, but not touching out at Tottenham Hale technically retrospectively left you without a valid ticket for Stratford to Tottenham Hale (although it was potentially valid until you left Tottenham Hale.) |
Stratford - huh?
On 3 Apr, 14:32, Matthew Dickinson
wrote: On 3 Apr, 14:01, Paul Oter wrote: On Apr 3, 12:11 pm, Mr Thant wrote: Sarah Brown wrote: One thing I'm wondering with hindsight is whether the return portion of my CDR from Cambridge to London Terminals would have actually been valid for a trip from Stratford to Enfield Lock? In the event, I ended up going straight back home from Enfield Lock, changing at Cheshunt, rather than returning to Stratford. I don't think so. The Routeing Guide only gives this one map:http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/R...aps/map_wa.htm Since Stratford isn't a London Terminal, you can't use the branch on the right on your ticket. But you can use your ticket on that line north of Tottenham Hale, so you only needed to buy a Stratford- Tottenham Hale ticket. Also, as I mentioned, PAYG would also cover Stratford-Tottenham Hale, though you'd have to get off your train to touch out, then re-enter with your train ticket and get on the next one. I was in a similar situation recently. I was at North Greenwich and decided to go home to Cambridge via Stratford and Tottenham Hale, mainly for the novelty of travelling a line I rarely use. I hold a Cambridge - London Terminals season, which I know isn't valid via Stratford except for the direct trains that take that route to Liverpool Street on Sundays). So I touched in with my PAYG Oyster at North Greenwich, caught a Jubilee line train and then touched "out" again at Stratford at the Jubilee gateline. This took me to the confusing interchange area/ concourse that Sarah mentioned. Like her I had difficulty finding the right platform for the train: I found the platform number on a monitor but there seemed to be a complete absence of signs telling you how to get there. Eventually I found the platform, in an obscure corner of the station, and boarded my train. I was aware that PAYG was valid between Stratford and Tottenham Hale. As I had touched in at North Greenwich (and because I believed that touching out at the unique Jubilee Line "inner-gateline" at Stratford would be counted as an interchange rather than actually leaving the system) I assumed I was carrying a valid ticket for this short journey. However I got to Tottenham Hale I didn't get off and touch out; I was now on a route covered by my paper season ticket and simply stayed on the train as far as Bishop's Stortford where I changed to a Cambridge train. My thinking was that failing to touch out wouldn't leave me with an unfinished journey since I had touched out at Stratford. So if I've got this right, I made a perfectly legal PAYG journey from Stratford to TH, but where touching out at the TH was entirely optional. Do people agree? PaulO- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - It wouldn't leave an unresolved journey, and the Oyster fare for both journeys is £1, but not touching out at Tottenham Hale technically retrospectively left you without a valid ticket for Stratford to Tottenham Hale (although it was potentially valid until you left Tottenham Hale.) After typing my previous posting I walked over to a nearby tube station and checked my Oyster journey history. I was charged £1 for North Greenwich to Stratford with no unresolved journey. However the fare finder on www.tfl.gov.uk tells me that the fare from North Greenwich to Tottenham Hale is also £1 so I haven't underpaid, though I accept that this is a happy coincidence, and I could have easily ended up underpaying for my total journey despite holding a valid ticket at every stage of the journey. PaulO |
Stratford - huh?
On 3 Apr, 12:21, MIG wrote:
BUT in that case, why only at Bank and only on the DLR? *Why can't they provide them for that purpose on all LU platforms so that you don't have to go all the way to the exit at the point when you realise that you are going to use PAYG to complete an unplanned journey (or extension of a paper travelcard as it happens)? Because, as previously stated, you can use the lift at street level in King William Street and arrive on the dockloands concourse without having an option of touching in. |
Stratford - huh?
On Thu, 03 Apr 2008 04:21:28 -0700, MIG wrote:
BUT in that case, why only at Bank and only on the DLR? Why can't they provide them for that purpose on all LU platforms so that you don't have to go all the way to the exit at the point when you realise that you are going to use PAYG to complete an unplanned journey (or extension of a paper travelcard as it happens)? I believe part of the reason is it's only if leaving Bank by DLR that the next station is not in Zone 1. -- Phil Reynolds mail: (though I'd prefer followups on group) Web: http://www.tinsleyviaduct.com/phil/ Waltham 66, Emley Moor 69, Droitwich 79, Windows 95 |
Stratford - huh?
On 3 Apr, 14:23, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote: MIG wrote: Last week I saw notices by those readers which suggested that they're for Oyster users going out of zone, not people who've come down in the lift. Yeah, it's possible that you'd enter the system by a cross-platform interchange and/or ungated station, not needing to touch your Oyster because of using a travelcard, and then realise that you needed to travel beyond your zones on LU. BUT in that case, why only at Bank and only on the DLR? There aren't actually that many other in station Underground-DLR interchanges that I can think of - Stratford and Canning Town are the only ones that spring to mind and I don't know if the latter has any internal readers, but it did used to have a non-Oyster service. Canning Town does not have any internal standalone Oyster readers, though it did when the NLL was open. Was the original idea perhaps that DLR would be keep distinct and people expected to always touch in upon entry. I have *never* heard or read the supposed requirement that you state anywhere else beforehand, so might I suggest that you may have somehow come to that erroneous (mis)understanding after having seen the DLR posters which in fact issue a different instruction - that holders of period Travelcards on Oyster who are travelling outside their zones on DLR need to remember to touch-in and out (so as to ensure the correct excess fare is debited from their PAYG balance). Why can't they provide them for that purpose on all LU platforms so that you don't have to go all the way to the exit at the point when you realise that you are going to use PAYG to complete an unplanned journey (or extension of a paper travelcard as it happens)? Because that would be too convenient for customers? No. It would create plentiful opportunities for people who's destination station was ungated (or indeed for those willing to take more of a risk their origination station was ungated) to abuse the system by underpaying their fare, by staring or finishing their journey short. At interchange stations with internal Oyster readers this 'hole' already exists - I'm not keen on utl becoming some masterclass for the dishonest, but ultimately if you think through the system logically this becomes apparent so I'm not divulging some state secret here. As Oyster PAYG expands onto the National Rail network this will become a bigger issue, so TOCs do perhaps have a point when they say they have concerns. Of course the way of countering this, by not having standalone readers at interchange stations, just isn't really practical given the number of people who may be entering the Tube/DLR network from National Rail services. Even when PAYG goes Londonwide and there are readers at every National Rail station in London, there will still be people arriving on trains from origination stations outside the London zonal area. |
Stratford - huh?
On Apr 3, 7:44*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 3 Apr, 14:23, "Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote: MIG wrote: Last week I saw notices by those readers which suggested that they're for Oyster users going out of zone, not people who've come down in the lift. Yeah, it's possible that you'd enter the system by a cross-platform interchange and/or ungated station, not needing to touch your Oyster because of using a travelcard, and then realise that you needed to travel beyond your zones on LU. BUT in that case, why only at Bank and only on the DLR? There aren't actually that many other in station Underground-DLR interchanges that I can think of - Stratford and Canning Town are the only ones that spring to mind and I don't know if the latter has any internal readers, but it did used to have a non-Oyster service. Canning Town does not have any internal standalone Oyster readers, though it did when the NLL was open. Was the original idea perhaps that DLR would be keep distinct and people expected to always touch in upon entry. I have *never* heard or read the supposed requirement that you state anywhere else beforehand, so might I suggest that you may have somehow come to that erroneous (mis)understanding after having seen the DLR posters which in fact issue a different instruction - that holders of period Travelcards on Oyster who are travelling outside their zones on DLR need to remember to touch-in and out (so as to ensure the correct excess fare is debited from their PAYG balance). Why can't they provide them for that purpose on all LU platforms so that you don't have to go all the way to the exit at the point when you realise that you are going to use PAYG to complete an unplanned journey (or extension of a paper travelcard as it happens)? Because that would be too convenient for customers? No. It would create plentiful opportunities for people who's destination station was ungated (or indeed for those willing to take more of a risk their origination station was ungated) to abuse the system by underpaying their fare, by staring or finishing their journey short. Oh come off it. Are you saying that people determined to avoid a fare wouldn't think it was worth the effort of going to the exit to touch in, while those trying to pay the right fare should have obstacles put in their place? This really ain't joined-up. |
Stratford - huh?
On Apr 3, 5:55*pm, " wrote:
On 3 Apr, 12:21, MIG wrote: BUT in that case, why only at Bank and only on the DLR? *Why can't they provide them for that purpose on all LU platforms so that you don't have to go all the way to the exit at the point when you realise that you are going to use PAYG to complete an unplanned journey (or extension of a paper travelcard as it happens)? Because, as previously stated, you can use the lift at street level in King William Street and arrive on the dockloands concourse without having an option of touching in. It was me that stated that, and I was contradicted with the suggestion that it was for out-of-zone travelling. |
Stratford - huh?
On 3 Apr, 22:03, MIG wrote: On Apr 3, 7:44 pm, Mizter T wrote: On 3 Apr, 14:23, "Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote: MIG wrote: (snip) Why can't they provide them for that purpose on all LU platforms so that you don't have to go all the way to the exit at the point when you realise that you are going to use PAYG to complete an unplanned journey (or extension of a paper travelcard as it happens)? Because that would be too convenient for customers? No. It would create plentiful opportunities for people who's destination station was ungated (or indeed for those willing to take more of a risk their origination station was ungated) to abuse the system by underpaying their fare, by staring or finishing their journey short. Oh come off it. Are you saying that people determined to avoid a fare wouldn't think it was worth the effort of going to the exit to touch in, while those trying to pay the right fare should have obstacles put in their place? This really ain't joined-up. I won't come off it and I am thinking in a joined up way. If I'm reading you right I think you're saying that such people would go to the gateline and then touch on a standalone reader next to the manual gate. Well, that would undoubtedly look like suspicious behaviour, and said person might well have to deal with the station staff on the gateline who are normally present next to these readers (and new installations on LO at least that have wide-aisle gates don't have separate manual gates and hence don't have standalone readers). Sure, they might well get away with it but it would look pretty fishy and hence would require some 'balls', and it is also fairly inconvenient as they'd have to go out of their way up from the platform. You speak about 'determined' people, I'm more talking about a somewhat more casual flavour of n'er do wells - those who'd try and get away with it if they can manage. Nonetheless the issue I've outlined will unfortunately rear it's head as and when PAYG rolls out on National Rail with its plethora of ungated stations, and people change at an intermediate station that is fitted with standalone readers for interchange traffic. Access to standalone readers within fare paid areas thus somewhat blunts the max cash fare 'penalty' disincentive to those who fail to touch-out/in given that they might be able to fool the system that they have started or finished their journey when they haven't. There are a number of ways that this can be tackled, which in essense boil down to (a) gating more stations - something that I think passengers who use urban systems in this country are generally supportive of even if out friend Mr Willms is not, and (b) deploying ticket checking staff in an intelligent manner (and having more of them). I do feel somewhat uneasy about discussing this whole issue on a public forum, and I have tried to avoid spelling things out precisely - however as I said above such things can all ultimately be fathomed out by people without any secret knowledge, and some things may become more apparent as people make use of the system even if only through accidental misuse. I would lastly add that I do always ensure I pay the correct fare and I do not approve of those who don't. |
Stratford - huh?
On Apr 3, 10:59*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 3 Apr, 22:03, MIG wrote: On Apr 3, 7:44 pm, Mizter T wrote: On 3 Apr, 14:23, "Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote: MIG wrote: (snip) Why can't they provide them for that purpose on all LU platforms so that you don't have to go all the way to the exit at the point when you realise that you are going to use PAYG to complete an unplanned journey (or extension of a paper travelcard as it happens)? Because that would be too convenient for customers? No. It would create plentiful opportunities for people who's destination station was ungated (or indeed for those willing to take more of a risk their origination station was ungated) to abuse the system by underpaying their fare, by staring or finishing their journey short. Oh come off it. *Are you saying that people determined to avoid a fare wouldn't think it was worth the effort of going to the exit to touch in, while those trying to pay the right fare should have obstacles put in their place? *This really ain't joined-up. I won't come off it and I am thinking in a joined up way. If I'm reading you right I think you're saying that such people would go to the gateline and then touch on a standalone reader next to the manual gate. Well, that would undoubtedly look like suspicious behaviour, and said person might well have to deal with the station staff on the gateline who are normally present next to these readers (and new installations on LO at least that have wide-aisle gates don't have separate manual gates and hence don't have standalone readers). Sure, they might well get away with it but it would look pretty fishy and hence would require some 'balls', and it is also fairly inconvenient as they'd have to go out of their way up from the platform. You speak about 'determined' people, I'm more talking about a somewhat more casual flavour of n'er do wells - those who'd try and get away with it if they can manage. Nonetheless the issue I've outlined will unfortunately rear it's head as and when PAYG rolls out on National Rail with its plethora of ungated stations, and people change at an intermediate station that is fitted with standalone readers for interchange traffic. Access to standalone readers within fare paid areas thus somewhat blunts the max cash fare 'penalty' disincentive to those who fail to touch-out/in given that they might be able to fool the system that they have started or finished their journey when they haven't. Taking it back a bit, the suggestion was that a reason for the DLR readers at Bank could be to allow for people who have entered the system via an ungated or cross-platform station to touch before extending their travelcard with PAYG. My point was that this could happen absolutely anywhere on LU, not just at Bank. You rightly reminded me that passengers are cheating scumbags. But that must include passengers at Bank. I think that the real reason for the Oyster readers at Bank DLR is because there was a general decision to install readers at any location where DLR platforms could be accessed, and no allowances were made for different circumstances (eg being within a gated station). I really think that's all there is to it. |
Stratford - huh?
On 3 Apr, 19:12, Mr Thant
wrote: wrote: Because, as previously stated, you can use the lift at street level in King William Street and arrive on the dockloands concourse without having an option of touching in. That lift only gets you down to the top of the Northern Line lifts, and you can get to several other lines from there depending on your level of mobility (the DLR is the only step-free one). So if your reason was correct the touch pad should be by the lift rather than the DLR platforms. U --http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London No, the lift in King William Street takes you down to the paid side of the Northern ticket hall, behind the main lifts down to the Northern line. Rather than force people to use that lift to go all the way to the reader on the manual gate (the lifts were installed to allow mobility impaired to access the DLR). The lower lift takes you down to the DLR concourse and past the Oyster reader. |
Stratford - huh?
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Stratford - huh?
On Thu, 3 Apr 2008 01:34:17 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant wrote:
The explanation for those does seem to be the possibility of arriving via the lift without passing a gate. *I've never had a problem with not touching there. * A touch at the DLR one end and LU the other end, with no touch while changing, has always resulted in me being charged for one LU/DLR journey at the right price. There's a big sign by the departures one at Bank that talks about "if you're going outside your zones", so I think it's for people who have a Travelcard and have arrived from somewhere ungated where they don't need to touch in (Waterloo W&C?). Coming from Waterloo W&C, you'd have had to pass through the gateline at Bank W&C, wouldn't you? |
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