On Apr 13, 10:37*pm, Boltar wrote:
On 13 Apr, 22:23, Paul Corfield wrote:

sympathy at all for the RMT's tactics in trying to drag the tube into
strike action several times a year. *However Boris has neither the
political support, the resources or frankly the time to concoct a
strategy that would allow him to defeat the RMT. They've already said

Probably true unfortunately.

All I'll say is that I'm fed up with the current relentless round of
threat and counter threat. *There has to be a better way than this but I
have no idea what it is.

Probably a new set of laws whereby even strike threats can't be made
without a membership vote and union leaders must come to the
negotiating table at all times if requested to do so by the other
party or forfeit their right to strike with the threat of arrest of
the leaders and/or huge fine for their union if they do anyway.
Draconian possibly but if ts whats needed to reign in Crowe and his
merry band of extortionists so be it.

Given that the calling of a ballot is reported as a "strike threat" I
am not clear what distinction you are making.

But in general, I think that what you propose about arrest and fines
for a refusal to negotiate meaningfully is fair enough, as long as it
applies equally to chief executives who try to impose changes to
conditions, job losses etc.

(Oh why don't I go and live in Russia and why don't you go and live in
Colombia.)

In message , Paul Corfield
writes

Not sure there's any sort of procedure for here. In another group I
frequent the "organiser" simply starts a new thread and states a date,
time and venue and people can either turn up or they can't. To try to
cater for the wide range of opinions and options is impossible for the
"organiser" to deal with. Alternatively you can request suggestions but
you'll ultimately need to make a ruling to curtail the almost inevitable
"debate".

In answer to your other question I would like to meet a few of the other
"faces" in utl so tentatively I'm in.

Suggestions for a venue are The Doric Arch at Euston (formerly the Head
of Steam) - never been in it myself but well located or the Jugged Hare
on Vauxhall Bridge Road - 5 mins from Victoria. Not too busy but decent
enough beer and food. They will cordon off an area for a group if
requested. Both suggestions are Fullers Pubs which may not be to
everyone's taste but they are reasonably located for bus, tube and rail
links.

I'm with Mr. C. here, both in that I'll turn up (if shifts allow) and
the two pubs he recommends; I have used both of them and they're
perfectly fine.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

On Apr 13, 11:29 pm, MIG wrote:
Given that the calling of a ballot is reported as a "strike threat" I
am not clear what distinction you are making.

Well of course it is , what else is the ballot for , a vote on
tommorows sandwich filler in the canteen? What I would want is a vote
on whether the membership think the union should even persue their
current whinge since I sometimes wonder when union leaders start yet
another complaint , how many of their membership actually agree with
them.

But in general, I think that what you propose about arrest and fines
for a refusal to negotiate meaningfully is fair enough, as long as it
applies equally to chief executives who try to impose changes to
conditions, job losses etc.

They can't impose changes if the job conditions etc are written in a
legally binding contract. If there is no such contract then tough ,
thats the way it is and if you don't like it go get another job.

(Oh why don't I go and live in Russia and why don't you go and live in
Colombia.)

You'll find unions have even less friends in russia these days than
over here.

B2003

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:26:34 +0100, Ian Jelf
wrote:

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 19:18:21 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

We should go out boozing one
night, and then try some test trips on the buses [1]. In fact, we
should have
a utl meet, and settle it once and for all!

Well volunteered Mr Anderson. On what date is this grand event going to
occur? ;-)

I thought we were doing this sometime in Burton-on-Trent. :-))

For once this thread is not cross posted to uk.railway which is where
Burton sprang up from. I note Mr Anderson has not responded yet!

Sorry, I completely forgot where I was when posting that.

Apologies for confusing posting.


(In which case you would **all** be seriously shocked about how elastic
the term "public transport" can be.......

But, but Arriva provide the buses there, don't they? Oh I see what you
mean .....

Quite.......


PS - I shall be up in Brum in a couple of weekends time if you fancy a
beer / balti.


That would be great. Send me an e-mail with the dates, though
ironically, most of the coming weekends see me in either London or
Wiltshire/Bath!

--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message , Steve Fitzgerald
] writes
In message , Paul Corfield
writes

Not sure there's any sort of procedure for here. In another group I
frequent the "organiser" simply starts a new thread and states a date,
time and venue and people can either turn up or they can't. To try to
cater for the wide range of opinions and options is impossible for the
"organiser" to deal with. Alternatively you can request suggestions but
you'll ultimately need to make a ruling to curtail the almost inevitable
"debate".

In answer to your other question I would like to meet a few of the other
"faces" in utl so tentatively I'm in.

Suggestions for a venue are The Doric Arch at Euston (formerly the Head
of Steam) - never been in it myself but well located or the Jugged Hare
on Vauxhall Bridge Road - 5 mins from Victoria. Not too busy but decent
enough beer and food. They will cordon off an area for a group if
requested. Both suggestions are Fullers Pubs which may not be to
everyone's taste but they are reasonably located for bus, tube and rail
links.

I'm with Mr. C. here, both in that I'll turn up (if shifts allow) and
the two pubs he recommends; I have used both of them and they're
perfectly fine.

If any of this could reasonably fit in with my time in London you could
count me in no trouble! (Don't know the Jugged Hare but the Head of
Steam is fine.)
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message
,
Boltar writes
On 13 Apr, 22:23, Paul Corfield wrote:
sympathy at all for the RMT's tactics in trying to drag the tube into
strike action several times a year. However Boris has neither the
political support, the resources or frankly the time to concoct a
strategy that would allow him to defeat the RMT. They've already said

Probably true unfortunately.

All I'll say is that I'm fed up with the current relentless round of
threat and counter threat. There has to be a better way than this but I
have no idea what it is.

Probably a new set of laws whereby even strike threats can't be made
without a membership vote

Well, you'd have to define "strike threat", wouldn't you? Going to a
ballot basically *is* a strike threat.


and union leaders must come to the
negotiating table at all times if requested to do so by the other
party or forfeit their right to strike with the threat of arrest of
the leaders

Direct but I think once you go down the road of imprisoning Union
leaders you're in a pretty scary country where people's basic freedoms
are near worthless. Oh hang on a minute....... :-)

--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message
,
Boltar writes
You'll find unions have even less friends in russia these days than
over here.

They never did.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 14:37:23 -0700 (PDT), Boltar
wrote:

On 13 Apr, 22:23, Paul Corfield wrote:
sympathy at all for the RMT's tactics in trying to drag the tube into
strike action several times a year. However Boris has neither the
political support, the resources or frankly the time to concoct a
strategy that would allow him to defeat the RMT. They've already said

Probably true unfortunately.

All I'll say is that I'm fed up with the current relentless round of
threat and counter threat. There has to be a better way than this but I
have no idea what it is.

Probably a new set of laws whereby even strike threats can't be made
without a membership vote and union leaders must come to the
negotiating table at all times if requested to do so by the other
party or forfeit their right to strike with the threat of arrest of
the leaders and/or huge fine for their union if they do anyway.

A minimum turnout requirement for strike ballots might help too.

On Apr 14, 12:08 pm, Ian Jelf wrote:
Direct but I think once you go down the road of imprisoning Union
leaders you're in a pretty scary country where people's basic freedoms
are near worthless.

Only if they were to break the law. Unions are supposed to exist to
protect workers rights, not be a heavy handed mob threatening trouble
if the employer doesn't bow to their latest unreasonable demand.
Unfortunately Crowe and people like him seem to forget this, so if
they want to behave like bully boys they need to be treated as such.

B2003

On 2008-04-14, Boltar wrote:
On Apr 14, 12:08 pm, Ian Jelf wrote:
Direct but I think once you go down the road of imprisoning Union
leaders you're in a pretty scary country where people's basic freedoms
are near worthless.

Only if they were to break the law. Unions are supposed to exist to
protect workers rights, not be a heavy handed mob threatening trouble
if the employer doesn't bow to their latest unreasonable demand.
Unfortunately Crowe and people like him seem to forget this, so if
they want to behave like bully boys they need to be treated as such.

B2003



How do you tell the difference between "protect workers rights" and
"unreasonable demands". I think it depends on where you are. You seem to
take the view that every issue can only be the latter.

E