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Gunnersbury signal
I've been asked about a signal allegedly at the south/west end of the
eastbound platform at Gunnersbury (that is, at the Richmond end of the platform used by trains coming *from* Richmond). I'm not aware of any such signal - there are no routes from the east into that platform - and won't have a chance to visit in the near future. Does anyone know anything or can describe it to me? -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Gunnersbury signal
On Apr 14, 9:57*pm, "Clive D. W. Feather" cl...@on-the-
train.demon.co.uk wrote: I've been asked about a signal allegedly at the south/west end of the eastbound platform at Gunnersbury (that is, at the Richmond end of the platform used by trains coming *from* Richmond). I'm not aware of any such signal - there are no routes from the east into that platform - and won't have a chance to visit in the near future. Does anyone know anything or can describe it to me? There's an elevated Limit of Shunt signal at the Richmond end of the Up platform (no. GB507). As you say, there are no routes reading up to it. It's fitted with a trainstop and it's there to prevent trains setting back wrong road to Richmond without authority. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Railway Signs and Signals of Great Britain: http://www.railsigns.co.uk/ |
Gunnersbury signal
In message
"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote: I've been asked about a signal allegedly at the south/west end of the eastbound platform at Gunnersbury (that is, at the Richmond end of the platform used by trains coming *from* Richmond). I'm not aware of any such signal - there are no routes from the east into that platform - and won't have a chance to visit in the near future. Does anyone know anything or can describe it to me? I go through there quite often but don't recall such a signal. Next time I go I'll try to remember to look for it. -- Graeme Wall This address is not read, substitute trains for rail. Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html |
Gunnersbury signal
On 14 Apr, 22:23, "Railsigns.co.uk" wrote:
There's an elevated Limit of Shunt signal at the Richmond end of the Up platform (no. GB507). As you say, there are no routes reading up to it. It's fitted with a trainstop and it's there to prevent trains setting back wrong road to Richmond without authority. And you can see a photo of it on page 15 of this 5 MB PDF: http://www.irse.org.hk/chinese/newsl...ary%202007.pdf And also a comprehensive explanation. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Gunnersbury signal
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant wrote:
On 14 Apr, 22:23, "Railsigns.co.uk" wrote: There's an elevated Limit of Shunt signal at the Richmond end of the Up platform (no. GB507). As you say, there are no routes reading up to it. It's fitted with a trainstop and it's there to prevent trains setting back wrong road to Richmond without authority. And you can see a photo of it on page 15 of this 5 MB PDF: http://www.irse.org.hk/chinese/newsl...ary%202007.pdf And also a comprehensive explanation. There's also this page: http://www.trainweb.org/districtdave...nnersbury.html which explains more about the reversing move back to Richmond, from an LU point of view, although it does not mention the 'LOS'. -- WZR |
Gunnersbury signal
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant
wrote: On 14 Apr, 22:23, "Railsigns.co.uk" wrote: There's an elevated Limit of Shunt signal at the Richmond end of the Up platform (no. GB507). As you say, there are no routes reading up to it. It's fitted with a trainstop and it's there to prevent trains setting back wrong road to Richmond without authority. And you can see a photo of it on page 15 of this 5 MB PDF: http://www.irse.org.hk/chinese/newsl...ary%202007.pdf And also a comprehensive explanation. Including that the offending move (as done on at least two previous occasions) being prevented is a train returning to Richmond "wrong line" in error rather than proceeding past the crossover at the London end of the station and using that crossover to return to Richmond on the Down Line. |
Gunnersbury signal
In article
, Mr Thant writes On 14 Apr, 22:23, "Railsigns.co.uk" wrote: There's an elevated Limit of Shunt signal at the Richmond end of the Up platform (no. GB507). As you say, there are no routes reading up to it. It's fitted with a trainstop and it's there to prevent trains setting back wrong road to Richmond without authority. And you can see a photo of it on page 15 of this 5 MB PDF: http://www.irse.org.hk/chinese/newsl...ary%202007.pdf Thanks to both of you. Do either of you know what's on the plate? The PDF seems to show three rows of text. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Gunnersbury signal
"Charles Ellson" wrote in message ... On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant wrote: On 14 Apr, 22:23, "Railsigns.co.uk" wrote: There's an elevated Limit of Shunt signal at the Richmond end of the Up platform (no. GB507). As you say, there are no routes reading up to it. It's fitted with a trainstop and it's there to prevent trains setting back wrong road to Richmond without authority. And you can see a photo of it on page 15 of this 5 MB PDF: http://www.irse.org.hk/chinese/newsl...ary%202007.pdf And also a comprehensive explanation. Including that the offending move (as done on at least two previous occasions) being prevented is a train returning to Richmond "wrong line" in error rather than proceeding past the crossover at the London end of the station and using that crossover to return to Richmond on the Down Line. So is it exactly the sort of set up the RAIB revealed is not 'cost effective' following the incident at Camden Town? Paul |
Gunnersbury signal
On Apr 15, 6:56*am, "Clive D. W. Feather" cl...@on-the-
train.demon.co.uk wrote: Do either of you know what's on the plate? The PDF seems to show three rows of text. I'm not certain, but I think it's "GB507" over "LOS" over a right-hand arrow. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Railway Signs and Signals of Great Britain: http://www.railsigns.co.uk/ |
Gunnersbury signal
On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:27:18 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote: "Charles Ellson" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:40:04 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant wrote: On 14 Apr, 22:23, "Railsigns.co.uk" wrote: There's an elevated Limit of Shunt signal at the Richmond end of the Up platform (no. GB507). As you say, there are no routes reading up to it. It's fitted with a trainstop and it's there to prevent trains setting back wrong road to Richmond without authority. And you can see a photo of it on page 15 of this 5 MB PDF: http://www.irse.org.hk/chinese/newsl...ary%202007.pdf And also a comprehensive explanation. Including that the offending move (as done on at least two previous occasions) being prevented is a train returning to Richmond "wrong line" in error rather than proceeding past the crossover at the London end of the station and using that crossover to return to Richmond on the Down Line. So is it exactly the sort of set up the RAIB revealed is not 'cost effective' following the incident at Camden Town? The circumstances were slightly different. IIRC Camden Town involved a one-off incident of a driver setting off "wrong line" after forgetting which way he and the train were facing while at Gunnersbury there was a (repeated?) misunderstanding of an instruction from a remote signaller concerning a train being sent back by the same route (but not wrong line). I haven't got the details of the Camden Town incident to hand but one thing possibly missed by the driver was that before he set off he failed to check the platform starter; had he done so then its absence should have indicated something was wrong. For practical purposes he seems to have compounded the event by doing a one-man "ding-ding and away". |
Gunnersbury signal
In article , Charles Ellson
writes I haven't got the details of the Camden Town incident to hand but one thing possibly missed by the driver was that before he set off he failed to check the platform starter; He appears to have checked it in the CCTV monitor rather than out of the window (and the report implies this wasn't a totally unreasonable thing to do). You get the same monitor views in both cabs. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Gunnersbury signal
On 15 Apr, 19:56, Charles Ellson wrote:
I haven't got the details of the Camden Town incident to hand but one thing possibly missed by the driver was that before he set off he failed to check the platform starter; had he done so then its absence should have indicated something was wrong. For practical purposes he seems to have compounded the event by doing a one-man "ding-ding and away". He checked the platform repeater in the in-cab CCTV. (which is against the rules, but not a SPAD) U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Gunnersbury signal
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Gunnersbury signal
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Gunnersbury signal
On Apr 15, 8:37 pm, wrote:
On 15 Apr, 19:56, Charles Ellson wrote: I haven't got the details of the Camden Town incident to hand but one thing possibly missed by the driver was that before he set off he failed to check the platform starter; had he done so then its absence should have indicated something was wrong. For practical purposes he seems to have compounded the event by doing a one-man "ding-ding and away". He checked the platform repeater in the in-cab CCTV. (which is against the rules, but not a SPAD) You'd think he might have remembered which side the platform was on and which door he got out of when he arrived. Was the man half asleep? B2003 |
Gunnersbury signal
On 16 Apr, 13:28, Boltar wrote:
You'd think he might have remembered which side the platform was on and which door he got out of when he arrived. Was the man half asleep? But the problem was that he did remember. Camden has two northbound platforms in essentially an island formation, albeit separated by passageways. When he switched to other train he got in what have looked to him like the same end, but was actually the south end. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Gunnersbury signal
Boltar wrote:
On Apr 15, 8:37 pm, wrote: On 15 Apr, 19:56, Charles Ellson wrote: I haven't got the details of the Camden Town incident to hand but one thing possibly missed by the driver was that before he set off he failed to check the platform starter; had he done so then its absence should have indicated something was wrong. For practical purposes he seems to have compounded the event by doing a one-man "ding-ding and away". He checked the platform repeater in the in-cab CCTV. (which is against the rules, but not a SPAD) You'd think he might have remembered which side the platform was on and which door he got out of when he arrived. Was the man half asleep? B2003 The RAIB report explains how this occurred and is well worth a read. Basically an unusual crew change took place at Camden Town so the driver did not get out of the train and back into it but came from another platform. In those circumstances it is inevitable that such a mistake happen eventually. This has been accepted and procedures detailed in the RAIB report should prevent this happening again. |
Gunnersbury signal
On Apr 16, 2:15 pm, Mr Thant
wrote: On 16 Apr, 13:28, Boltar wrote: You'd think he might have remembered which side the platform was on and which door he got out of when he arrived. Was the man half asleep? But the problem was that he did remember. Camden has two northbound platforms in essentially an island formation, albeit separated by passageways. When he switched to other train he got in what have looked to him like the same end, but was actually the south end. Oh I see , I thought he went back into the same train after going for a pee or something. Still , even so , it seems a strange mistake to make. B2003 |
Gunnersbury signal
In article
, Boltar writes I haven't got the details of the Camden Town incident [...] You'd think he might have remembered which side the platform was on and which door he got out of when he arrived. Was the man half asleep? He was changing from one northbound platform to the other. On one of them you turn right from the passageway to get to the cab and the platform is on the right when you're in the cab. On the other you turn left from the passageway and the platform is on your left. However, drivers don't normally change trains there, and the cab is forward of the headwall so you can't see the platform anyway. I suggest you read the report. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Gunnersbury signal
On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:02:16 -0700 (PDT), Boltar
wrote: On Apr 16, 2:15 pm, Mr Thant wrote: On 16 Apr, 13:28, Boltar wrote: You'd think he might have remembered which side the platform was on and which door he got out of when he arrived. Was the man half asleep? But the problem was that he did remember. Camden has two northbound platforms in essentially an island formation, albeit separated by passageways. When he switched to other train he got in what have looked to him like the same end, but was actually the south end. Oh I see , I thought he went back into the same train after going for a pee or something. Still , even so , it seems a strange mistake to make. Not with the lack of the visual references surrounding an open air station which would make the result of such a momentary aberration "upstairs" rather more obvious. The scenery in a tube station is 100% manufactured and consequentially many of the visual references at different locations can be similar if not identical. |
Gunnersbury signal
On Wed, 16 Apr 2008, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:02:16 -0700 (PDT), Boltar wrote: On Apr 16, 2:15 pm, Mr Thant wrote: On 16 Apr, 13:28, Boltar wrote: You'd think he might have remembered which side the platform was on and which door he got out of when he arrived. Was the man half asleep? But the problem was that he did remember. Camden has two northbound platforms in essentially an island formation, albeit separated by passageways. When he switched to other train he got in what have looked to him like the same end, but was actually the south end. Oh I see , I thought he went back into the same train after going for a pee or something. Still , even so , it seems a strange mistake to make. Not with the lack of the visual references surrounding an open air station which would make the result of such a momentary aberration "upstairs" rather more obvious. The scenery in a tube station is 100% manufactured and consequentially many of the visual references at different locations can be similar if not identical. To a point. To head for the north end of a train and end up at the south does require a pretty catastrophic failure of one's internal sense of direction, and it's not as if the route between the platforms is that complicated. There's also the fact that he drove off in a direction which didn't have a green starter next to it. You're right that it's easier to get confused underground than overground, or indeed when wombling free, but i still don't think it's easy, and this was still a "strange mistake to make". tom -- Taking care of business |
Gunnersbury signal
Railsigns.co.uk wrote:
On Apr 15, 6:56 am, "Clive D. W. Feather" cl...@on-the- train.demon.co.uk wrote: Do either of you know what's on the plate? The PDF seems to show three rows of text. I'm not certain, but I think it's "GB507" over "LOS" over a right-hand arrow. That's correct. I've mailed Clive a photo. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
Gunnersbury signal
On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:40:20 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote: On Wed, 16 Apr 2008, Charles Ellson wrote: On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:02:16 -0700 (PDT), Boltar wrote: On Apr 16, 2:15 pm, Mr Thant wrote: On 16 Apr, 13:28, Boltar wrote: You'd think he might have remembered which side the platform was on and which door he got out of when he arrived. Was the man half asleep? But the problem was that he did remember. Camden has two northbound platforms in essentially an island formation, albeit separated by passageways. When he switched to other train he got in what have looked to him like the same end, but was actually the south end. Oh I see , I thought he went back into the same train after going for a pee or something. Still , even so , it seems a strange mistake to make. Not with the lack of the visual references surrounding an open air station which would make the result of such a momentary aberration "upstairs" rather more obvious. The scenery in a tube station is 100% manufactured and consequentially many of the visual references at different locations can be similar if not identical. To a point. To head for the north end of a train and end up at the south does require a pretty catastrophic failure of one's internal sense of direction, and it's not as if the route between the platforms is that complicated. If you watch other people you can often find similar left/right up/down north/south errors being made, usually there is a more immediate "prompt" (such as the wrong action being physically prevented without harm) that causes a quick correction. "Senior moments" are by no means limited to older people. There could also be an element of repetition involved in the form of the driver doing what would have been normal at the station where he changed ends on a normal day. There's also the fact that he drove off in a direction which didn't have a green starter next to it. It would be interesting to know if he'd ever SPADded/tripped at an unlit signal (assuming he'd ever managed to find one) indicating that unconsciously he might only be looking for reds. You're right that it's easier to get confused underground than overground, or indeed when wombling free, but i still don't think it's easy, and this was still a "strange mistake to make". |
Gunnersbury signal
In message , Charles Ellson
writes If you watch other people you can often find similar left/right up/down north/south errors being made, usually there is a more immediate "prompt" (such as the wrong action being physically prevented without harm) that causes a quick correction. "Senior moments" are by no means limited to older people. There could also be an element of repetition involved in the form of the driver doing what would have been normal at the station where he changed ends on a normal day. This is a particularly unusual procedure and it's highly likely the driver has never done it before. It's not a standard thing to do and I suspect won't be done again in a hurry. The bottom line is though that the driver entered the wrong cab (which we've all done at some point!) but instead of checking the starter was clear, relied on the view of the platform repeater in the on-board CCTV. This is all in the RAIB report. For myself, if I do any unusual move, I always ensure I can see exactly what's going on. I would rather delay the service for a couple of minutes than have this happen - but then that's just me. I do remember having to reverse West to East at Hyde Park Corner not long after I passed out. It took me a good two minutes to find the signal (which is tucked away from the cab view on the tailwall in this case) and there was no way that train was going to move until I found it. -- Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building. You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK (please use the reply to address for email) |
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