Oh No Kenny O
 

On 24 Apr, 16:01, "Paul Scott" wrote:

Mr Thant wrote:

On 24 Apr, 15:09, Mwmbwls wrote:
Is that it - letting the station building to a retailer and build a
couple of sheds – why not use the air rights over the station to
build a substantial high rise complex – office, retail, housing ala
Dalston Junction and use the profits to have decent station
facilities.

Probably best to read the press release TB is repeating:
http://www.lsh.co.uk/pages/news_deta...1&q=overground

"New stations are also proposed including one at Kensington and
Olympia, where there are plans to let the existing station let to a
retailer following the development of a new smaller station."

I think a more accurate interpretation might be:

"New station buildings are also proposed including one at Kensington
Olympia, where there are plans to let the existing building to a retailer
following the development of a new smaller ticket office."

That's how I read it.

However, as nice as it is, the current spacious booking hall and
waiting lounge is completely underused, somewhat hidden away and
little known about. It's also on the wrong side of the tracks for
Gatwick-bound pax. A smaller but more obvious ticket office would be
welcome - untold times, whilst waiting for a train at KO, I've
directed ticketless passengers struggling with the ticket machines
towards the invisible ticket office.


I suspect air rights here would be objected to by owners of the existing
terraced properties along the east side of the railway?


For a great many reasons I very much doubt it's on the agenda, and
that is surely one of them.

Oh No Kenny O
 

On 24 Apr, 15:48, Mizter T wrote:
On 24 Apr, 15:29, MIG wrote:





On 24 Apr, 15:17, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 24 Apr, 15:09, Mwmbwls wrote:

Is that it *- letting the station building to a retailer and build a
couple of sheds – why not use the air rights over the station to build
a substantial high rise complex – office, retail, housing ala Dalston
Junction and use the profits to have decent station facilities.

Probably best to read the press release TB is repeating:
http://www.lsh.co.uk/pages/news_deta...1&q=overground

"New stations are also proposed including one at Kensington and
Olympia, where there are plans to let the existing station let to a
retailer following the development of a new smaller station."

I think they're referring to letting out the land rather than just the
building - which is just a small scruffy single storey concrete thing
isn't it?

So, new facilities based on the number of people who currently go
there attracted by services which are about to be withdrawn.

You're referring to the withdrawal of direct services from KO to
Gatwick, which I do think is a great shame but the argument put
forward strongly by the RUS is that they simply weren't the best use
of scarce capacity.

However the plan is for there to be both *more* LO trains between
Clapham and Willesden Junctions, and also *more* Southern services
from Watford Jn to, er, South Croydon was it (I think the RUS proposes
making these half-hourly).

So despite the withdrawal of Gatwick trains Olympia is still set to
get busier. Lots and lots of people are attracted there by the local
services.



Nearly as bizarre as demolishing Camden in order to accommodate the
number of people who go to Camden to visit the things that are being
demolished.

Whilst I absolutely understand where you're coming from, the plan
doesn't involve "demolishing Camden", it just doesn't.


Poetic licence, but the points are ... points.

Oh No Kenny O
 

On 24 Apr, 16:14, TimB wrote:

(snip)

Are we going to see the Imperial Wharf project (see recent thread) put
on ice while they decide how to make more money out of it? Not to
mention the Shepherds Bush rebuild.


No and no.

The Imperial Wharf station project is the result of a tie-in with
developers, in fact I think it's the result of a tie in with two
developers - the developer which was responsible for the already built
Chelsea Harbour development on the east side of the line (and who has
already paid their contribution), and the developer who wants to
develop land to the west side of the line. Whilst TfL obviously backs
this new station, it's not a TfL project per-se - it's really being
handled by LB Hammersmith & Fulham. Anyway very recent developments
suggest it is indeed going to happen, hopefully by 2010 - see:
http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...n-by-2010.html

Shepherd's Bush station is meanwhile the responsibility of the
developers of the new mega shopping centre north of Shepherd's Bush,
Westfield. Things now look like they're moving there as well - see:
http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...-platform.html

This announcement is all about better exploiting commercial
opportunities at existing stations on the LO network.

Oh No Kenny O
 

On 24 Apr, 16:19, MIG wrote:

On 24 Apr, 15:48, Mizter T wrote:

On 24 Apr, 15:29, MIG wrote:

(big snip)

Nearly as bizarre as demolishing Camden in order to accommodate the
number of people who go to Camden to visit the things that are being
demolished.

Whilst I absolutely understand where you're coming from, the plan
doesn't involve "demolishing Camden", it just doesn't.

Poetic licence, but the points are ... points.


Understood. TBH I haven't properly got my head round the plans for
Camden Town yet, but whilst my initial thoughts were along the lines
of yours, I've since come to the understanding that they are not in
fact that radical. It probably deserves a separate thread on utl
sometime soon.

I absolutely give you credit for putting such viewpoints forward
forcefully, as on these newsgroups there are many who are of the 'just
knock-it down school' if something gets in the way of new transport
infrastructure. That said, I'm also not of the 'preserve everything'
school of thinking. Indeed sometimes the knee-jerk reaction that x,y
or z development is going to obliterate everything simply isn't backed
up on closer scrutiny of the plans (and I think the Camden Town
redevelopment might fall into that category).

All that said, whilst passing through Cutty Sark DLR station and
making illicit use of the lavatorial facilities in the adjacent fast-
food emporium, I was somewhat saddened by all these tourists who had
ventured to Greenwich to see the sights and ended up eating in a
McDonalds or Subway or Ben & Jerry's outlet. As I'm sure you know, the
construction of the DLR station led to the controversial demolition of
a number of older buildings and a new development going up in it's
place, one which houses these outlets and various other distinctly
bland retail offerings. However, all that said I must admit I can't
quite recall anything of particular note of what buildings stood there
beforehand, so I'm left wondering if its demolition really was that
big a loss... or whether my memory just isn't that good!

Oh No Kenny O
 

On 24 Apr, 16:54, Mizter T wrote:
On 24 Apr, 16:19, MIG wrote:

On 24 Apr, 15:48, Mizter T wrote:

On 24 Apr, 15:29, MIG wrote:

(big snip)

Nearly as bizarre as demolishing Camden in order to accommodate the
number of people who go to Camden to visit the things that are being
demolished.

Whilst I absolutely understand where you're coming from, the plan
doesn't involve "demolishing Camden", it just doesn't.

Poetic licence, but the points are ... points.

Understood. TBH I haven't properly got my head round the plans for
Camden Town yet, but whilst my initial thoughts were along the lines
of yours, I've since come to the understanding that they are not in
fact that radical. It probably deserves a separate thread on utl
sometime soon.

I absolutely give you credit for putting such viewpoints forward
forcefully, as on these newsgroups there are many who are of the 'just
knock-it down school' if something gets in the way of new transport
infrastructure. That said, I'm also not of the 'preserve everything'
school of thinking. Indeed sometimes the knee-jerk reaction that x,y
or z development is going to obliterate everything simply isn't backed
up on closer scrutiny of the plans (and I think the Camden Town
redevelopment might fall into that category).

All that said, whilst passing through Cutty Sark DLR station and
making illicit use of the lavatorial facilities in the adjacent fast-
food emporium, I was somewhat saddened by all these tourists who had
ventured to Greenwich to see the sights and ended up eating in a
McDonalds or Subway or Ben & Jerry's outlet. As I'm sure you know, the
construction of the DLR station led to the controversial demolition of
a number of older buildings and a new development going up in it's
place, one which houses these outlets and various other distinctly
bland retail offerings. However, all that said I must admit I can't
quite recall anything of particular note of what buildings stood there
beforehand, so I'm left wondering if its demolition really was that
big a loss... or whether my memory just isn't that good!

I may be guilty of lumping other developments in both Camden and
Greenwich with the ones that are directly related to transport
infrastructure.

In Camden, far from the station, the Stables market at least is under
threat, and in Greenwich the main touristy market is under threat. I
have no particular interest in such markets, but logically, if people
are attracted by them, it makes no sense to accommodate large numbers
of people without retaining the character of whatever attracts them
(unpleasant dodgy character that it may be).

The logic seems to be

1) Lots of people seem to be attracted by something unique about the
area.

2) Let's knock down a little bit of it to improve the transport
facilities to bring people to the area that they are attracted to.

3) Oh look, there's loads of people attracted to the area and a shiny
new station to bring them here, so we can make money by putting a
supermarket here (for which we'll have to knock down everything else).

I don't blame transport developments for this, but something a bit
bonkers does seem to be going on in both cases. With a bit of luck
stage 3) will be averted.

Oh No Kenny O
 

On 24 Apr, 16:05, Mizter T wrote:
Here's a 'bird's eye view' of the station buildings from Live Search
Maps:
http://tinyurl.com/5mwrqx

Blimey, didn't realise there was quite so much of it. It would make a
lot of sense to rent that out.

Though it does also show how much other out-of-use land there is
around the station.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Oh No Kenny O
 

In message
MIG wrote:

On 24 Apr, 15:17, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 24 Apr, 15:09, Mwmbwls wrote:

Is that it =A0- letting the station building to a retailer and build a
couple of sheds =96 why not use the air rights over the station to build=

a substantial high rise complex =96 office, retail, housing ala Dalston
Junction and use the profits to have decent station facilities.

Probably best to read the press release TB is repeating:http://www.lsh.co.=
uk/pages/news_detail.asp?id=3D711&q=3Doverground

"New stations are also proposed including one at Kensington and
Olympia, where there are plans to let the existing station let to a
retailer following the development of a new smaller station."

I think they're referring to letting out the land rather than just the
building - which is just a small scruffy single storey concrete thing
isn't it?

So, new facilities based on the number of people who currently go
there attracted by services which are about to be withdrawn.


What are you talking about?

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

Oh No Kenny O
 

On 24 Apr, 16:15, Mizter T wrote:

However, as nice as it is, the current spacious booking hall and
waiting lounge is completely underused, somewhat hidden away and
little known about. It's also on the wrong side of the tracks for
Gatwick-bound pax. A smaller but more obvious ticket office would be
welcome - untold times, whilst waiting for a train at KO, I've
directed ticketless passengers struggling with the ticket machines
towards the invisible ticket office.

Well, the previous ticket office still exists, at least it did the
nast time I was there, not long ago, I don't know what it's used for
now, but the ticket windows were behind the timetables are in the
passage leading onto the Northbound platform. That was part of the
post-war rebuilding of the station; the original station had the main
buildings on the East side of the line; I think there were just open
fields to the West when the line was built, until the building of the
original exhibition hall, now the Grand Hall.

Once the re-building of Euston was completed, and Motorail departed,
the only regular passenger trains were the 'Exhibition service only'
District Line service to Earl's Court, High Street Kensington and
sometimes Edgeware Road which used the new platform 7, now 1, and the
handful of rush-hour shuttles to Clapham Junction, from platform 6,
now 2. There was nothing at all on the East side of the station, from
either the through platform, or any of the bays.

I find it difficult to understand why it took so long to get a proper
passenger service back on this line.

Another strange thing about this line is the number of stations which
it had, no less than six intermediate ones between Clapham Junction
and Willesden Junction.

Oh No Kenny O
 

In message
TimB wrote:

On Apr 24, 3:34 pm, Graeme Wall wrote:
[snip]

That's just the proposal for Olympia, I expect LSH will be keen on
exploiting all sources of income as doubtless they are on a percentage.
The Olympia scheme is a quick and easy job, the building already exists
and is presumably in good enough condition. That gets the ball rolling
and money coming in. Would keeping the current building preclude the sort
of development you are considering?


Are we going to see the Imperial Wharf project (see recent thread) put
on ice while they decide how to make more money out of it? Not to
mention the Shepherds Bush rebuild.

As I understand it Imperial Wharf is already going ahead and Shepherds Bush
has been built but to the wrong scale.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

Oh No Kenny O
 

On 24 Apr, 18:03, Stephen Furley wrote:

On 24 Apr, 16:15, Mizter T wrote:

However, as nice as it is, the current spacious booking hall and
waiting lounge is completely underused, somewhat hidden away and
little known about. It's also on the wrong side of the tracks for
Gatwick-bound pax. A smaller but more obvious ticket office would be
welcome - untold times, whilst waiting for a train at KO, I've
directed ticketless passengers struggling with the ticket machines
towards the invisible ticket office.

Well, the previous ticket office still exists, at least it did the
nast time I was there, not long ago, I don't know what it's used for
now, but the ticket windows were behind the timetables are in the
passage leading onto the Northbound platform. That was part of the
post-war rebuilding of the station; the original station had the main
buildings on the East side of the line; I think there were just open
fields to the West when the line was built, until the building of the
original exhibition hall, now the Grand Hall.


Nothing's changed, said ticket windows are still hidden behind the
timetables in that passage (which I perhaps somewhat confusingly
described elsewhere as a 'tunnel'), and if you look up you can see the
old (and unilluminated) lightbox signs above them (different windows
for LU and main line train tickets). I'm curious as to when they were
last in use, and when the main ticket office moved into the old
Motorail lounge? Perhaps when BR attempted to reintroduce cross-London
Intercity services in the 80's, perhaps when North London Railways
(the precursor to Silverlink) started running the Clapham Jn to
Willesden Jn service in the early/mid 90's (at least I think it was
them wot did it)...

As ever it's hard to imagine the open fields, but of course that's
exactly how it once was.


Once the re-building of Euston was completed, and Motorail departed,
the only regular passenger trains were the 'Exhibition service only'
District Line service to Earl's Court, High Street Kensington and
sometimes Edgware Road which used the new platform 7, now 1, and the
handful of rush-hour shuttles to Clapham Junction, from platform 6,
now 2. There was nothing at all on the East side of the station, from
either the through platform, or any of the bays.

I find it difficult to understand why it took so long to get a proper
passenger service back on this line.


As do I - it's a very useful and increasingly popular link. I think
some of today's passengers would be completely amazed to hear that
it's a relatively recent reintroduction.


Another strange thing about this line is the number of stations which
it had, no less than six intermediate ones between Clapham Junction
and Willesden Junction.


Indeed. Pendar Silwood's Abandoned Stations website has an interesting
section on the West London Line he
http://www.loveplums.co.uk/Tube/West_London_Line.html

I suppose the waxing and waning fortunes of some of the urban railway
lines in London, such as the WLL and WLL, are really just a reflection
of a whole host of other factors - the changing fortunes as a whole of
the capital city, the vast demographic changes within it, the
depopulation and repopulation of areas, the decline and
regentrification of districts, changes in levels of affluence, the
varying level of employment, growing commutes to work, changing
attitudes to mobility, higher expectations of public transport
provision, and crucially the increasing level of ownership of the
private motorcar and then the gradually ensuing gridlock caused by
them.