DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

I've got some queries that might take a bit of working out and could
take a bit of time and money to test.

The PAYG fare from the southern end of the DLR to Bethnal Green (zone
2) is £1, which presumably means that it is assumed to involve going
via Stratford.

If one went on PAYG via Bank, touching only at the start and end of
the journey, it wouldn't know the difference and would charge £1, and
anyone checking on the way would see that you'd touched in and have no
complaint.

Question 1: If you touched at the mysterious readers at Bank DLR,
would it treat it as a continuation of a journey nevertheless always
priced at £1, or would it work out that you'd been via zone 1 and
charge £1.50/£2?

If you had a zone 1 and 2 travelcard loaded on the Oyster, went via
Bank and didn't touch beforehand, it would let you through the gates
at Bethnal Green and would be valid if it was checked on the DLR on
the way to Bank whether you touched in or not.

Question 2: If you touched the travelcard on entering the DLR, would
it just acknowledge that it was valid, or would it figure that you've
used a zone 1 and 2 travelcard on a journey priced as involving zone
3, and deduct the extension fare, in which case would it be one
extension or two?

(I think probably not, but if so I'd have hit on a way that you would
pay extra by touching a travelcard valid for the whole of the DLR
journey, nevertheless unfairly.)

Question 3: In the unlikely event of the answer to question 2 being
that you'd be charged an extension for zone 3, could this be avoided
by touching the mysterious readers at Bank?

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On 28 Apr, 00:47, MIG wrote:
I've got some queries that might take a bit of working out and could
take a bit of time and money to test.

The PAYG fare from the southern end of the DLR to Bethnal Green (zone
2) is £1, which presumably means that it is assumed to involve going
via Stratford.

Indeed.


If one went on PAYG via Bank, touching only at the start and end of
the journey, it wouldn't know the difference and would charge £1, and
anyone checking on the way would see that you'd touched in and have no
complaint.


Yes, AFAICS that's fine.


Question 1: If you touched at the mysterious readers at Bank DLR,
would it treat it as a continuation of a journey nevertheless always
priced at £1, or would it work out that you'd been via zone 1 and
charge £1.50/£2?


You'd be charged the via zone 1 fare.


If you had a zone 1 and 2 travelcard loaded on the Oyster, went via
Bank and didn't touch beforehand, it would let you through the gates
at Bethnal Green and would be valid if it was checked on the DLR on
the way to Bank whether you touched in or not.


On the DLR you don't need to touch-in with a Travelcard if your
journey is entirely within the zonal validity of that Travelcard.

Note that whilst the Oyster T&Cs do not actually contain a specific
exemption from the requirement for users to touch-in if they have a
period Travelcard, such usage is nonetheless implicitly allowed when
one considers the relevant DLR publicity. In essence the same
situation applies on bendy-buses with Oyster users who have a period
Travelcard/ Bus Pass. (A while back I gathered a load of evidence to
support that but in the end never got round to posting it, so I'll try
and gather it up and get around to doing so soon.)

An Oyster loaded with a zone 1&2 Travelcard that hadn't been touched-
in would still be accepted as valid if checked on the DLR, and would
also still let someone out through the gates at Bethnal Green without
any issue (at least the way things are currently configured).


Question 2: If you touched the travelcard on entering the DLR, would
it just acknowledge that it was valid, or would it figure that you've
used a zone 1 and 2 travelcard on a journey priced as involving zone
3, and deduct the extension fare, in which case would it be one
extension or two?

(I think probably not, but if so I'd have hit on a way that you would
pay extra by touching a travelcard valid for the whole of the DLR
journey, nevertheless unfairly.)


Because the presumed route to Bethnal Green is via Stratford which is
in zone 3, aha I see what you're saying.

Interesting question, I'm not entirely sure, and I'm pretty sure I've
pondered on very similar issues in the past.

Touching-in on the DLR when using an Oyster loaded with a Travelcard
doesn't just lead to the system acknowledging it is valid, it acts as
an entry or exit to the system (and thus electronically 'marks' the
card as appropriate).

Like you, I think it quite possible that there's some leeway built
into the system that would mean one wouldn't get charged for
travelling via Stratford/ zone 3.


Question 3: In the unlikely event of the answer to question 2 being
that you'd be charged an extension for zone 3, could this be avoided
by touching the mysterious readers at Bank?


Yes, I'd certainly think so.

This touches (ho ho) on a number of issues with Oyster than I'm most
interested in, and I've got some evolving thinking about how Oyster
works in more complicated cases such as this. I'd thus be most
interested to hear about people's real experiences as to how things
actually work out on the ground.

Dare I suggest that the easiest way to get to the bottom of this
specific question is for it to be tried in practice!

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On 28 Apr, 09:52, Mizter T wrote:
On 28 Apr, 00:47, MIG wrote:

I've got some queries that might take a bit of working out and could
take a bit of time and money to test.

The PAYG fare from the southern end of the DLR to Bethnal Green (zone
2) is £1, which presumably means that it is assumed to involve going
via Stratford.

Indeed.

You can also get to Bethnal Green without going to Z3, changing at Bow
Church/Road and Mile End.

Question 1: If you touched at the mysterious readers at Bank DLR,
would it treat it as a continuation of a journey nevertheless always
priced at £1, or would it work out that you'd been via zone 1 and
charge £1.50/£2?

You'd be charged the via zone 1 fare.

I don't know if you would. I think we've concluded before that you're
always charged based on your end points, regardless of where you touch
during your journey (within reason).

Interesting question, I'm not entirely sure, and I'm pretty sure I've
pondered on very similar issues in the past.

I believe the charging extra for out-of-zone journeys only applies if
you don't have Z1 and the presumed route is via Z1.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On 28 Apr, 10:26, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 28 Apr, 09:52, Mizter T wrote:

On 28 Apr, 00:47, MIG wrote:

I've got some queries that might take a bit of working out and could
take a bit of time and money to test.

The PAYG fare from the southern end of the DLR to Bethnal Green (zone
2) is £1, which presumably means that it is assumed to involve going
via Stratford.

Indeed.

You can also get to Bethnal Green without going to Z3, changing at Bow
Church/Road and Mile End.

Ah right. That messes up my query. I wonder if there is another
route that is priced via outer zones making it normally cheaper but
which could be done via zone 1 with a period travelcard? Will need to
think. The original was due to the fact that I really was thinking of
going to Bethnal Green (although didn't).


Question 1: If you touched at the mysterious readers at Bank DLR,
would it treat it as a continuation of a journey nevertheless always
priced at £1, or would it work out that you'd been via zone 1 and
charge £1.50/£2?

You'd be charged the via zone 1 fare.

I don't know if you would. I think we've concluded before that you're
always charged based on your end points, regardless of where you touch
during your journey (within reason).

This one can be tested at some point.


Interesting question, I'm not entirely sure, and I'm pretty sure I've
pondered on very similar issues in the past.

I believe the charging extra for out-of-zone journeys only applies if
you don't have Z1 and the presumed route is via Z1.

U

--http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

Mr Thant wrote:

On 28 Apr, 09:52, Mizter T wrote:

On 28 Apr, 00:47, MIG wrote:

I've got some queries that might take a bit of working out and could
take a bit of time and money to test.

The PAYG fare from the southern end of the DLR to Bethnal Green (zone
2) is £1, which presumably means that it is assumed to involve going
via Stratford.

Indeed.

You can also get to Bethnal Green without going to Z3, changing at Bow
Church/Road and Mile End.


True, that's a good point and thus suggests that a straightforward
Lewisham to Bethnal Green journey may not actually be defined as being
via Stratford (zone 3), but instead via the Bows (and thus zone 2).

Perhaps the only way to tell would be to do some complicated
experimentation to see whether an Oyster with the zones 1&2 price cap
then shifted to having the zones 1-4 price cap after making a journey
from (for example) Bethnal Green to Lewisham DLR (i.e. to determine
exactly which way the system did define the route).

Of course if one changed at Bow Church/ Bow Road then one would have
to pass through some ticket gates, however from past experience simply
passing through gates (for an out-of-station interchange) which
clearly demonstrated that I didn't pass through zone 1 nonetheless
didn't ensure that I wasn't charged the via zone 1 fare, because the
presumed route between my start and end-points was defined as via zone
1 and hence the fare was charged as such. More on that later!


Question 1: If you touched at the mysterious readers at Bank DLR,
would it treat it as a continuation of a journey nevertheless always
priced at £1, or would it work out that you'd been via zone 1 and
charge £1.50/£2?

You'd be charged the via zone 1 fare.

I don't know if you would. I think we've concluded before that you're
always charged based on your end points, regardless of where you touch
during your journey (within reason).


I'm pretty sure I'm right on this one - because what would happen is
that the system would first of all regard your journeys as (for
example) Lewisham to Bank, and then on exiting at Bethnal Green that
journey would be extended so as to be Lewisham to Bethnal Green.

It would appear thus on your Journey History (if you checked it at a
Tube ticket machine)...

-----
Lewisham - Bank
Lewisham - Bethnal Green
-----

...with (if you were using PAYG) the appropriate fare being deducted
on the second line. However the via zone 1
fare would not be recalculated on exit at Bethnal Green simply because
a straightforward Lewisham to Bethnal Green journey is defined as
being via Stratford, because the foundation of the journey's fare is
the Lewisham to Bank leg if one touched-in at Bank DLR.

(Which would thus make it worthwhile ensuring that one does *not*
touch on one of the standalone Oyster readers at Bank DLR, at least
for certain journeys.)

The basic point being that if an end-to-end journey is charged as via
zone 1 for any of its length (because one touches-in/out in zone 1
even on a standalone Oyster reader), the whole journey is then charged
on the basis of being via zone 1 and one is not refunded as if one did
not travel through zone 1. (There was a recent example of this from a
poster here that I'll try and dig up.)

Anyway MIG has successfully piqued my interest enough to persuade me
to waste (yet) more of my money on conducting a few experiments, which
I will do in the not-too-distant future and then report back here.


Interesting question, I'm not entirely sure, and I'm pretty sure I've
pondered on very similar issues in the past.

I believe the charging extra for out-of-zone journeys only applies if
you don't have Z1 and the presumed route is via Z1.


OK, that kinda makes sense.

By the by, I'm sure I'm not the only person who finds it quite hard to
discuss these issues using unambiguous plain English!

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 03:22:58 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:

You can also get to Bethnal Green without going to Z3, changing at Bow
Church/Road and Mile End.

Ah right. That messes up my query. I wonder if there is another
route that is priced via outer zones making it normally cheaper but
which could be done via zone 1 with a period travelcard? Will need to
think. The original was due to the fact that I really was thinking of
going to Bethnal Green (although didn't).

Make the destination Hackney Wick instead of Bethnal Green.

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 16:47:00 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:

Question 1: If you touched at the mysterious readers at Bank DLR,
would it treat it as a continuation of a journey nevertheless always
priced at £1, or would it work out that you'd been via zone 1 and
charge £1.50/£2?

What happens here depends on whether the validator is (still) set to
"Entry only", as someone once said here.

What's the layout of barriers and validators at Bank/Monument? Am I
right in thinking it's as shown (logically) in the diagram below?
(Ignoring the current passageway/escalator closures.)

Exit Lift to KWS
| |
*---B---W&C |
| |
*---B------*-----*--V---DLR
|
C,N,D&C

B = Barrier line
V = "Mysterious" validator
KWS = King William Street

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 03:25:08 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T wrote:

I don't know if you would. I think we've concluded before that you're
always charged based on your end points, regardless of where you touch
during your journey (within reason).

The basic point being that if an end-to-end journey is charged as via
zone 1 for any of its length (because one touches-in/out in zone 1
even on a standalone Oyster reader), the whole journey is then charged
on the basis of being via zone 1 and one is not refunded as if one did
not travel through zone 1. (There was a recent example of this from a
poster here that I'll try and dig up.)

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....0411f7139b6538

Anyway MIG has successfully piqued my interest enough to persuade me
to waste (yet) more of my money on conducting a few experiments, which
I will do in the not-too-distant future and then report back here.

What experiments are you planning? I'd be interested in making a
prediction on the outcome beforehand and seeing if my understanding of
the underlying system is correct.

I believe the charging extra for out-of-zone journeys only applies if
you don't have Z1 and the presumed route is via Z1.

OK, that kinda makes sense.

It makes no sense at all to me. Are you saying that, if you had a Z34
Travelcard, and travelled from Alperton to Preston Road (both in Z4
but presumed route via Z5), you wouldn't be charged an extension fare?

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On 29 Apr, 16:30, asdf wrote:
What's the layout of barriers and validators at Bank/Monument? Am I
right in thinking it's as shown (logically) in the diagram below?

Yes, although there's a behind barriers route between the W&C and the
rest of the station, and the lift to KWS is in the Lombard Street
ticket hall rather than anywhere near the validator.

(Ignoring the current passageway/escalator closures.)

Well, you now [sometimes] have to pass the validator when arriving on
the DLR due to the one way system, which sends you along the
departures platform (which doesn't have its own validator, does it?).

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On 29 Apr, 17:13, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 29 Apr, 16:30, asdf wrote:

What's the layout of barriers and validators at Bank/Monument? Am I
right in thinking it's as shown (logically) in the diagram below?

Yes, although there's a behind barriers route between the W&C and the
rest of the station, and the lift to KWS is in the Lombard Street
ticket hall rather than anywhere near the validator.

(Ignoring the current passageway/escalator closures.)

Well, you now [sometimes] have to pass the validator when arriving on
the DLR due to the one way system, which sends you along the
departures platform (which doesn't have its own validator, does it?).

Yes, there's one near the bottom of the stairs from the Northern Line
platforms.

(It's the one I touched "in" at when I forgot to touch in at Euston
and exited at Monument (for Cannon Street) and got charged the correct
zone 1 fare, as anecdoted before.)

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On 29 Apr, 18:01, MIG wrote:
Yes, there's one near the bottom of the stairs from the Northern Line
platforms.

Sorry, I meant to ask about the arrivals platform. There's not a
second DLR validator, is there?

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On 29 Apr, 18:01, MIG wrote:
On 29 Apr, 17:13, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 29 Apr, 16:30, asdf wrote:

What's the layout of barriers and validators at Bank/Monument? Am I
right in thinking it's as shown (logically) in the diagram below?

Yes, although there's a behind barriers route between the W&C and the
rest of the station, and the lift to KWS is in the Lombard Street
ticket hall rather than anywhere near the validator.

(Ignoring the current passageway/escalator closures.)

Well, you now [sometimes] have to pass the validator when arriving on
the DLR due to the one way system, which sends you along the
departures platform (which doesn't have its own validator, does it?).

Yes, there's one near the bottom of the stairs from the Northern Line
platforms.

(It's the one I touched "in" at when I forgot to touch in at Euston
and exited at Monument (for Cannon Street) and got charged the correct
zone 1 fare, as anecdoted before.)

Or is that the one you meant? I was comparing with the one in the
central passageway at the bottom of the escalators at the north end,
and can't remember if there's one at the bottom of the escalators from
Monument.

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On 29 Apr, 18:10, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 29 Apr, 18:01, MIG wrote:

Yes, there's one near the bottom of the stairs from the Northern Line
platforms.

Sorry, I meant to ask about the arrivals platform. There's not a
second DLR validator, is there?

Ah, no; don't think so. I can picture two in the DLR part of the
station, but think logically that there must be a third.

That is, there must be one in each of the middle passageways at the
bottom of both sets of Escalators (to Central and District lines
respectively) and the one at the bottom of the Northern Line stairs.
I can't actually picture one at the Monument escalators, but think it
would have to be there.

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:13:29 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant wrote:

What's the layout of barriers and validators at Bank/Monument? Am I
right in thinking it's as shown (logically) in the diagram below?

Yes, although there's a behind barriers route between the W&C and the
rest of the station, and the lift to KWS is in the Lombard Street
ticket hall rather than anywhere near the validator.

Ah, right. So it's not entirely obvious that the purpose of the
validator is for those entering/leaving the station using the lift to
KWS?

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

asdf wrote:
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:13:29 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant wrote:

What's the layout of barriers and validators at Bank/Monument? Am I
right in thinking it's as shown (logically) in the diagram below?

Yes, although there's a behind barriers route between the W&C and the
rest of the station, and the lift to KWS is in the Lombard Street
ticket hall rather than anywhere near the validator.

Ah, right. So it's not entirely obvious that the purpose of the
validator is for those entering/leaving the station using the lift to
KWS?

Perhaps they should put a barrier line across the lift door! :-)

[not a serious suggestion - I'm unaware of the physical constraints down
there...]

Paul S

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On Apr 29, 7:54*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:13:29 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant wrote:

What's the layout of barriers and validators at Bank/Monument? Am I
right in thinking it's as shown (logically) in the diagram below?

Yes, although there's a behind barriers route between the W&C and the
rest of the station, and the lift to KWS is in the Lombard Street
ticket hall rather than anywhere near the validator.

Ah, right. So it's not entirely obvious that the purpose of the
validator is for those entering/leaving the station using the lift to
KWS?

Perhaps they should put a barrier line across the lift door! *:-)

[not a serious suggestion - I'm unaware of the physical constraints down
there...]


I really don't think it's anything to do with the lifts. I
hypothesise that there was a general decision to place validators
wherever anyone could enter or leave a DLR platform, regardless of the
barrier situation.

Not having them at Bank would have made Bank an exception, rather than
the other way round, and maybe the argument was never made.

Far more mysterious (has this been raised before?) are the Carnet
validators, which don't seem to exist at any other DLR stations.
Maybe they are to do with the lifts.

By the way, there are two Oyster validators at the north end, one
nearer the bottom of the escalators and one right by the cut through
to the departure platform. So that's three with the one at the bottom
of the Northern Line stairs and four with the one I am assuming to be
near the bottom of the Monument escalators.

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

MIG wrote

Not having them at Bank would have made Bank an exception, rather
than
the other way round, and maybe the argument was never made.

Far more mysterious (has this been raised before?) are the Carnet
validators, which don't seem to exist at any other DLR stations.
Maybe they are to do with the lifts.

Bank got Carnet validators because of the W&C line which had no
barriers at Bank in those distant days as it still hasn't at Waterloo.

--
Mike D

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On 29 Apr, 23:54, MIG wrote:

(snip)

I really don't think it's anything to do with the lifts. I
hypothesise that there was a general decision to place validators
wherever anyone could enter or leave a DLR platform, regardless
of the barrier situation.

Not having them at Bank would have made Bank an exception, rather than
the other way round, and maybe the argument was never made.


Not true - there are no standalone Oyster readers/ validators at
Canning Town station, which is a gated station run by LU. There did
used to be standalone validators at the entrance to the NLL platforms
to enable those pax transferring between a paper rail ticket and
Oyster PAYG to touch-in/out, but the NLL at Canning Town is no longer
and neither are the validators.

The standalone Oyster validators at Bank are indeed somewhat
mysterious, though here on utl we have come up with a number of
theories about it in the past, the details of which I forget now!

How about this one - a passenger with a zones 1&2 Travelcard loaded on
Oyster boards a District line train at Olympia without touching-in
(the station is ungated), travels to Monument and then changes to the
DLR at Bank before travelling out to Beckton in zone 3 - this
passenger can thus validate their Oyster card at Bank DLR to enable
them to use Oyster PAYG to pay for the extra to travel in zone 3.
True, perhaps knowing that they were going to travel outside their
Travelcard's zones they should have touched-in at Olympia before they
began their journey, but nonetheless these readers at Bank DLR cater
for those who didn't for some reason.

I have a second theory, but you'll have to read on for that one...


Far more mysterious (has this been raised before?) are the Carnet
validators, which don't seem to exist at any other DLR stations.
Maybe they are to do with the lifts.


Carnets were only for use on the Underground in zone 1, so these
Carnet validators provided for passengers arriving into Bank on the
DLR who were using another DLR-only ticket to continue their journey
on the Underground with a pre-purchased carnet ticket.

Now someone's going to ask me about DLR-only tickets! Well, a number
of DLR rover and season tickets used to exist, though I'm not sure if
you could ever get a DLR-only single ticket to/from Bank, as I forget
the details of DLR ticketing in days gone by.

Indeed, one DLR-only ticket does still exist - or should I say DLR-and-
riverboat only, because it's the "DLR Rail & River Rover" ticket.

May I therefore suggest that the mysterious standalone validators at
Bank DLR cater for people who wish to touch-in/out and transfer
between using this DLR-only ticket and Oyster PAYG. Obscure perhaps,
but bear in mind that when Oyster was being planned there were still
other DLR-only tickets around, so maybe these validators are the
vestiges of this earlier planning. Additionally, perhaps the thinking
at one time was that the DLR might possibly charge different PAYG
fares from the Underground, in which case these validators would cater
for that (though it would be a nightmare nonetheless!).

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

Michael R N Dolbear wrote:

MIG wrote

Not having them at Bank would have made Bank an
exception, rather than the other way round, and maybe
the argument was never made.

Far more mysterious (has this been raised before?)
are the Carnet validators, which don't seem to exist
at any other DLR stations. Maybe they are to do with
the lifts.

Bank got Carnet validators because of the W&C line which had no
barriers at Bank in those distant days as it still hasn't at Waterloo.


Sorry, that doesn't make any sense - before the W&C line platforms at
Bank were brought inside the gated area, passengers transferring from
the W&C to DLR at Bank had to go through gates to enter the gated
area. These gates were located in the passageway that has the
Greathead shield in it leading away from the W&C platforms - you can
still see an equipment box for the gates down there, indeed the box
still has some kit in it.

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On Apr 30, 6:07*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 29 Apr, 23:54, MIG wrote:



(snip)

I really don't think it's anything to do with the lifts. *I
hypothesise that there was a general decision to place validators
wherever anyone could enter or leave a DLR platform, regardless
of the barrier situation.

Not having them at Bank would have made Bank an exception, rather than
the other way round, and maybe the argument was never made.

Not true - there are no standalone Oyster readers/ validators at
Canning Town station, which is a gated station run by LU. There did
used to be standalone validators at the entrance to the NLL platforms
to enable those pax transferring between a paper rail ticket and
Oyster PAYG to touch-in/out, but the NLL at Canning Town is no longer
and neither are the validators.

The standalone Oyster validators at Bank are indeed somewhat
mysterious, though here on utl we have come up with a number of
theories about it in the past, the details of which I forget now!

How about this one - a passenger with a zones 1&2 Travelcard loaded on
Oyster boards a District line train at Olympia without touching-in
(the station is ungated), travels to Monument and then changes to the
DLR at Bank before travelling out to Beckton in zone 3 - this
passenger can thus validate their Oyster card at Bank DLR to enable
them to use Oyster PAYG to pay for the extra to travel in zone 3.
True, perhaps knowing that they were going to travel outside their
Travelcard's zones they should have touched-in at Olympia before they
began their journey, but nonetheless these readers at Bank DLR cater
for those who didn't for some reason.

This came up before, and by that logic every LU platform ought to have
validators for people who realise after the start of their journey
that they want to go beyond their travelcard zones.

So, reasonable and helpful though it might be, I can't believe that
that's the reason.



I have a second theory, but you'll have to read on for that one...



Far more mysterious (has this been raised before?) are the Carnet
validators, which don't seem to exist at any other DLR stations.
Maybe they are to do with the lifts.

Carnets were only for use on the Underground in zone 1, so these
Carnet validators provided for passengers arriving into Bank on the
DLR who were using another DLR-only ticket to continue their journey
on the Underground with a pre-purchased carnet ticket.

Now someone's going to ask me about DLR-only tickets! Well, a number
of DLR rover and season tickets used to exist, though I'm not sure if
you could ever get a DLR-only single ticket to/from Bank, as I forget
the details of DLR ticketing in days gone by.

Indeed, one DLR-only ticket does still exist - or should I say DLR-and-
riverboat only, because it's the "DLR Rail & River Rover" ticket.

May I therefore suggest that the mysterious standalone validators at
Bank DLR cater for people who wish to touch-in/out and transfer
between using this DLR-only ticket and Oyster PAYG. Obscure perhaps,
but bear in mind that when Oyster was being planned there were still
other DLR-only tickets around, so maybe these validators are the
vestiges of this earlier planning. Additionally, perhaps the thinking
at one time was that the DLR might possibly charge different PAYG
fares from the Underground, in which case these validators would cater
for that (though it would be a nightmare nonetheless!).

This may be the answer then, given what you say about Canning Town (my
journeys there via DLR could be counted on the hands of one finger).

It does remind me about the standalone validator I saw in the corridor
at West Ham that was out of either order or service, possibly since
the closure of the Silverlink route.

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

Mizter T wrote

Michael R N Dolbear wrote:

MIG wrote

Far more mysterious (has this been raised before?)
are the Carnet validators, which don't seem to exist
at any other DLR stations. Maybe they are to do with
the lifts.

Bank got Carnet validators because of the W&C line which had no
barriers at Bank in those distant days as it still hasn't at
Waterloo.


Sorry, that doesn't make any sense - before the W&C line platforms at
Bank were brought inside the gated area, passengers transferring from
the W&C to DLR at Bank had to go through gates to enter the gated
area. These gates were located in the passageway that has the
Greathead shield in it leading away from the W&C platforms - you can
still see an equipment box for the gates down there, indeed the box
still has some kit in it.

I agree that as constructed it make no sense unless someone has a
scenario of how they could serve a useful purpose, but my intent was to
point out an answer to the "what's the difference between Bank and
other DLR stations", ie the W&C.

--
Mike D

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

In message
, Mizter
T wrote:

The standalone Oyster validators at Bank are indeed somewhat
mysterious, though here on utl we have come up with a number of
theories about it in the past, the details of which I forget now!

A passenger touches in in Zones 1 & 2 with Zones 1 & 2 travelcard, then
touches at Beckton. Did they change onto the DLR from LU, or did they leave
at an ungated LU station then travel to Beckton by some other means?

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On Fri, 02 May 2008 23:15:13 +0100, Timothy Baldwin wrote:

The standalone Oyster validators at Bank are indeed somewhat
mysterious, though here on utl we have come up with a number of
theories about it in the past, the details of which I forget now!

A passenger touches in in Zones 1 & 2 with Zones 1 & 2 travelcard, then
touches at Beckton. Did they change onto the DLR from LU, or did they leave
at an ungated LU station then travel to Beckton by some other means?

If less than 2 hours pass between touch-in and touching at Beckton,
the system assumes the former. If more than 2 hours, the system
assumes the latter.

(This is irrespective of whether the passenger touched at Bank.)

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On May 3, 9:46*pm, asdf wrote:
On Fri, 02 May 2008 23:15:13 +0100, Timothy Baldwin wrote:
The standalone Oyster validators at Bank are indeed somewhat
mysterious, though here on utl we have come up with a number of
theories about it in the past, the details of which I forget now!

A passenger touches in in Zones 1 & 2 with Zones 1 & 2 travelcard, then
touches at Beckton. Did they change onto the DLR from LU, or did they leave
at an ungated LU station then travel to Beckton by some other means?

If less than 2 hours pass between touch-in and touching at Beckton,
the system assumes the former. If more than 2 hours, the system
assumes the latter.

(This is irrespective of whether the passenger touched at Bank.)

A similar point arose a while ago. This is, in certain circumstances,
effectively a ban on starting a second journey within a certain time
period.

The other story was someone getting charged for two unresolved
journeys due to starting a new journey at Bow being treated as a
continuation of the same journey which then went over two hours. (Why
the system can't recalculate it as two journeys, particularly in a
situation where it's clear where the person has been, I don't
understand.)

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On Sat, 3 May 2008 14:15:40 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:

A passenger touches in in Zones 1 & 2 with Zones 1 & 2 travelcard, then
touches at Beckton. Did they change onto the DLR from LU, or did they leave
at an ungated LU station then travel to Beckton by some other means?

If less than 2 hours pass between touch-in and touching at Beckton,
the system assumes the former. If more than 2 hours, the system
assumes the latter.

(This is irrespective of whether the passenger touched at Bank.)

A similar point arose a while ago. This is, in certain circumstances,
effectively a ban on starting a second journey within a certain time
period.

If the passenger wanted to start a second journey, couldn't they just
touch at Beckton twice? (OK, so in this example they'd get charged
extra.) Or would the validator reject a second touch in too short a
time?

The other story was someone getting charged for two unresolved
journeys due to starting a new journey at Bow being treated as a
continuation of the same journey which then went over two hours. (Why
the system can't recalculate it as two journeys, particularly in a
situation where it's clear where the person has been, I don't
understand.)

Because, if PAYG uses a state model (a system of logic flow for
deciding what happens when each touch occurs), and it works the way I
think it does[1], this is actually very difficult to achieve. It would
involve adding lots of data and logic to the system, which would make
it more expensive to design and implement, for little perceived
benefit.


[1] Mizter T, if you're reading this and still keen on experimenting,
here's one that would help here. When you do an out-of-station
interchange, what happens if you miss out one of the touches at the
interchange? For example, if you travel from Ravenscourt Park to
Goldhawk Road, normally you touch 4 times:
1. Touch in at Ravenscourt Park
2. Touch out at Hammersmith (D&P)
3. Touch in at Hammersmith (H&C)
4. Touch out at Goldhawk Road

There are 2 experiments he (a) What happens if you miss out #2
(i.e. do 1, 3, 4)? (b) What happens if you miss out #3 (i.e. do 1, 2,
4)?

I *suspect* that in both cases, you'd actually get charged the same
amount, and have the same journey history, as if you'd done all of 1-4
(though I'm less sure that this would be the case in (b)).

You'd need some method (tailgating, paper Travelcard, other Oyster
card, etc) to get through gates without touching when required.

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On May 3, 11:48*pm, asdf wrote:
On Sat, 3 May 2008 14:15:40 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:
A passenger touches in in Zones 1 & 2 with Zones 1 & 2 travelcard, then
touches at Beckton. Did they change onto the DLR from LU, or did they leave
at an ungated LU station then travel to Beckton by some other means?

If less than 2 hours pass between touch-in and touching at Beckton,
the system assumes the former. If more than 2 hours, the system
assumes the latter.

(This is irrespective of whether the passenger touched at Bank.)

A similar point arose a while ago. *This is, in certain circumstances,
effectively a ban on starting a second journey within a certain time
period.

If the passenger wanted to start a second journey, couldn't they just
touch at Beckton twice? (OK, so in this example they'd get charged
extra.) Or would the validator reject a second touch in too short a
time?

Presumably, but I don't know the time limit.


The other story was someone getting charged for two unresolved
journeys due to starting a new journey at Bow being treated as a
continuation of the same journey which then went over two hours. *(Why
the system can't recalculate it as two journeys, particularly in a
situation where it's clear where the person has been, I don't
understand.)

Because, if PAYG uses a state model (a system of logic flow for
deciding what happens when each touch occurs), and it works the way I
think it does[1], this is actually very difficult to achieve. It would
involve adding lots of data and logic to the system, which would make
it more expensive to design and implement, for little perceived
benefit.

[1] Mizter T, if you're reading this and still keen on experimenting,
here's one that would help here. When you do an out-of-station
interchange, what happens if you miss out one of the touches at the
interchange?

I think I can answer that one. Due to the awful positioning of the
readers at Heron Quays, I had marched well past them on leaving the
DLR before realising they were behind me, and assumed that as long as
I touched in at Canary Wharf Jubilee, it would tag me as going through
that interchange.

I was wrong. It wouldn't let me through the gate. It then wouldn't
let me rectify the situation by going back to the DLR, having touched
and been rejected at the Jubilee gate.

In fact, I couldn't proceed before queuing at the ticket office, where
it was still coct up and I ended up being charged two journeys instead
of a continuation.

For example, if you travel from Ravenscourt Park to
Goldhawk Road, normally you touch 4 times:
1. Touch in at Ravenscourt Park
2. Touch out at Hammersmith (D&P)
3. Touch in at Hammersmith (H&C)
4. Touch out at Goldhawk Road

There are 2 experiments he (a) What happens if you miss out #2
(i.e. do 1, 3, 4)? (b) What happens if you miss out #3 (i.e. do 1, 2,
4)?

I *suspect* that in both cases, you'd actually get charged the same
amount, and have the same journey history, as if you'd done all of 1-4
(though I'm less sure that this would be the case in (b)).

You'd need some method (tailgating, paper Travelcard, other Oyster
card, etc) to get through gates without touching when required.

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On Sat, 3 May 2008 15:58:46 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:

[1] Mizter T, if you're reading this and still keen on experimenting,
here's one that would help here. When you do an out-of-station
interchange, what happens if you miss out one of the touches at the
interchange?

I think I can answer that one. Due to the awful positioning of the
readers at Heron Quays, I had marched well past them on leaving the
DLR before realising they were behind me, and assumed that as long as
I touched in at Canary Wharf Jubilee, it would tag me as going through
that interchange.

I was wrong. It wouldn't let me through the gate. It then wouldn't
let me rectify the situation by going back to the DLR, having touched
and been rejected at the Jubilee gate.

In fact, I couldn't proceed before queuing at the ticket office, where
it was still coct up and I ended up being charged two journeys instead
of a continuation.

Now that's really odd. Not letting you through the Jubilee gate I can
understand, but what (specifically) was it that made the DLR reader
reject the card? Maybe the card gets put into some sort of "get
rejected by everything until situation manually resolved" state.

Was this before or after the £4 penalty was introduced? ISTR (BICBW)
stories of exit gates not letting people out if they tried to touch
out without having previously touched in, but not recently.

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On May 4, 12:12*am, asdf wrote:
On Sat, 3 May 2008 15:58:46 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:
[1] Mizter T, if you're reading this and still keen on experimenting,
here's one that would help here. When you do an out-of-station
interchange, what happens if you miss out one of the touches at the
interchange?

I think I can answer that one. *Due to the awful positioning of the
readers at Heron Quays, I had marched well past them on leaving the
DLR before realising they were behind me, and assumed that as long as
I touched in at Canary Wharf Jubilee, it would tag me as going through
that interchange.

I was wrong. *It wouldn't let me through the gate. *It then wouldn't
let me rectify the situation by going back to the DLR, having touched
and been rejected at the Jubilee gate.

In fact, I couldn't proceed before queuing at the ticket office, where
it was still coct up and I ended up being charged two journeys instead
of a continuation.

Now that's really odd. Not letting you through the Jubilee gate I can
understand, but what (specifically) was it that made the DLR reader
reject the card? Maybe the card gets put into some sort of "get
rejected by everything until situation manually resolved" state.

Was this before or after the £4 penalty was introduced? ISTR (BICBW)
stories of exit gates not letting people out if they tried to touch
out without having previously touched in, but not recently.-

It wasn't evident from the errors, but I am guessing that a penalty
had been charged, thus not leaving enough credit to let me through the
Jubilee gate.

It also would then not have enough credit to start a new DLR journey
(if by then that's what it thought I was doing).

BUT it was well within the time limit, so it seemed to decide that
being at the Jubilee gate was reason to prematurely unresolve my
previous DLR journey about fifteen minutes after it had started.

This would have to have been done instantaneously in one touch at the
Jubilee gate, ie prematurely unresolve my DLR journey ... charge me
the penalty ... decide I haven't got enough credit to start a Jubilee
journey ... reject my passage.

If it's got the logic to figure that one out ... Well, you'd think it
could be programmed with the logic to work out the true situation as
well.

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On Sat, 3 May 2008 16:26:30 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:

I think I can answer that one. *Due to the awful positioning of the
readers at Heron Quays, I had marched well past them on leaving the
DLR before realising they were behind me, and assumed that as long as
I touched in at Canary Wharf Jubilee, it would tag me as going through
that interchange.

I was wrong. *It wouldn't let me through the gate. *It then wouldn't
let me rectify the situation by going back to the DLR, having touched
and been rejected at the Jubilee gate.

In fact, I couldn't proceed before queuing at the ticket office, where
it was still coct up and I ended up being charged two journeys instead
of a continuation.

Now that's really odd. Not letting you through the Jubilee gate I can
understand, but what (specifically) was it that made the DLR reader
reject the card? Maybe the card gets put into some sort of "get
rejected by everything until situation manually resolved" state.

It wasn't evident from the errors, but I am guessing that a penalty
had been charged, thus not leaving enough credit to let me through the
Jubilee gate.

It also would then not have enough credit to start a new DLR journey
(if by then that's what it thought I was doing).

Ah, good explanation. That makes perfect sense.

BUT it was well within the time limit, so it seemed to decide that
being at the Jubilee gate was reason to prematurely unresolve my
previous DLR journey about fifteen minutes after it had started.

This would have to have been done instantaneously in one touch at the
Jubilee gate, ie prematurely unresolve my DLR journey ... charge me
the penalty ... decide I haven't got enough credit to start a Jubilee
journey ... reject my passage.

Yes. (Well, strictly speaking, the penalty had already been deducted
when you started your journey, and would have been refunded had you
finished it cleanly.)

I think the logic works as follows. Your card was in the state of
being inside the fare-paid area. You touched it on a validator of type
"entry-part-of-interchange". The logic for this combination is to
carry out the following steps:
- Reset card state to being outside fare-paid area (without refunding
the £4)
- Then proceed as if originally presented with a card in that state.

If it's got the logic to figure that one out ... Well, you'd think it
could be programmed with the logic to work out the true situation as
well.

Indeed. All they'd need to do is remove the distinction between
validators of type entry-part-of-interchange and those of type
any-part-of-interchange (the DLR one at Heron Quays would be an
example of the latter).

The main purpose of the second experiment I proposed was to work out
if there actually was such a difference (I didn't think there would be
as on the face of it it seems a bit of a pointless over-complication).

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On May 4, 1:52*am, asdf wrote:
On Sat, 3 May 2008 16:26:30 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:
I think I can answer that one. *Due to the awful positioning of the
readers at Heron Quays, I had marched well past them on leaving the
DLR before realising they were behind me, and assumed that as long as
I touched in at Canary Wharf Jubilee, it would tag me as going through
that interchange.

I was wrong. *It wouldn't let me through the gate. *It then wouldn't
let me rectify the situation by going back to the DLR, having touched
and been rejected at the Jubilee gate.

In fact, I couldn't proceed before queuing at the ticket office, where
it was still coct up and I ended up being charged two journeys instead
of a continuation.

Now that's really odd. Not letting you through the Jubilee gate I can
understand, but what (specifically) was it that made the DLR reader
reject the card? Maybe the card gets put into some sort of "get
rejected by everything until situation manually resolved" state.

It wasn't evident from the errors, but I am guessing that a penalty
had been charged, thus not leaving enough credit to let me through the
Jubilee gate.

It also would then not have enough credit to start a new DLR journey
(if by then that's what it thought I was doing).

Ah, good explanation. That makes perfect sense.

BUT it was well within the time limit, so it seemed to decide that
being at the Jubilee gate was reason to prematurely unresolve my
previous DLR journey about fifteen minutes after it had started.

This would have to have been done instantaneously in one touch at the
Jubilee gate, ie prematurely unresolve my DLR journey ... charge me
the penalty ... decide I haven't got enough credit to start a Jubilee
journey ... reject my passage.

Yes. (Well, strictly speaking, the penalty had already been deducted
when you started your journey, and would have been refunded had you
finished it cleanly.)

I think the logic works as follows. Your card was in the state of
being inside the fare-paid area. You touched it on a validator of type
"entry-part-of-interchange". The logic for this combination is to
carry out the following steps:
- Reset card state to being outside fare-paid area (without refunding
the £4)
- Then proceed as if originally presented with a card in that state.

If it's got the logic to figure that one out ... *Well, you'd think it
could be programmed with the logic to work out the true situation as
well.

Indeed. All they'd need to do is remove the distinction between
validators of type entry-part-of-interchange and those of type
any-part-of-interchange (the DLR one at Heron Quays would be an
example of the latter).

The main purpose of the second experiment I proposed was to work out
if there actually was such a difference (I didn't think there would be
as on the face of it it seems a bit of a pointless over-complication).

The Hammersmith example would involve one-way gates, so I think you
are right.

The remaining experiment is to see what happens if you touch out via a
DLR/luggage gate at stage 2 and somehow avoid touching in at stage 3.

Or don't touch out at stage 2 but touch in at a DLR or luggage gate at
stage 3 (maybe if I'd touched in at the luggage gate I would have been
OK).

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On Sun, 4 May 2008 01:57:40 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:

The main purpose of the second experiment I proposed was to work out
if there actually was such a difference (I didn't think there would be
as on the face of it it seems a bit of a pointless over-complication).

The Hammersmith example would involve one-way gates, so I think you
are right.

The remaining experiment is to see what happens if you touch out via a
DLR/luggage gate at stage 2 and somehow avoid touching in at stage 3.

I'd prefer one where you touch out at a one-way gate at stage 2 and
avoid touching in (preferably at another one-way gate) at stage 3.

If this works OK (which I suspect it would), it would give a slightly
stronger result.

Or don't touch out at stage 2 but touch in at a DLR or luggage gate at
stage 3 (maybe if I'd touched in at the luggage gate I would have been
OK).

Yes, you would have been; there's no way for such a reader to tell
whether you're entering or leaving the system, so it can't punish you
for touching it while you're supposed to be "inside". (Although it's
not entirely clear whether you would then have been OK touching out at
your destination. The other experiment would reveal this.)

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On Apr 29, 4:10*pm, asdf wrote:
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 03:22:58 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:
You can also get to Bethnal Green without going to Z3, changing at Bow
Church/Road and Mile End.

Ah right. *That messes up my query. *I wonder if there is another
route that is priced via outer zones making it normally cheaper but
which could be done via zone 1 with a period travelcard? *Will need to
think. *The original was due to the fact that I really was thinking of
going to Bethnal Green (although didn't).

Make the destination Hackney Wick instead of Bethnal Green.

Engineering works have inhibited my ability to test this out (and
denied me an opportunity for some tourism in Hackney) but I think that
the only way it could be done in zone 1 and 2 only, without going
through a barrier (thus invalidating the experiment), would be via
Olympia and might take too long, specially with all the changes,
adding an interesting complication if it did decide to asume a PAYG
extension.

Or possibly via Bakerloo and Willesden Junction if that doesn't
involve a barrier, but I can't remember. I am assuming that there is
definitely one at Highbury and Islington.

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On Mon, 5 May 2008 10:17:37 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:

You can also get to Bethnal Green without going to Z3, changing at Bow
Church/Road and Mile End.

Ah right. *That messes up my query. *I wonder if there is another
route that is priced via outer zones making it normally cheaper but
which could be done via zone 1 with a period travelcard? *Will need to
think. *The original was due to the fact that I really was thinking of
going to Bethnal Green (although didn't).

Make the destination Hackney Wick instead of Bethnal Green.

Engineering works have inhibited my ability to test this out (and
denied me an opportunity for some tourism in Hackney) but I think that
the only way it could be done in zone 1 and 2 only, without going
through a barrier (thus invalidating the experiment), would be via
Olympia and might take too long, specially with all the changes,
adding an interesting complication if it did decide to asume a PAYG
extension.

Or possibly via Bakerloo and Willesden Junction if that doesn't
involve a barrier, but I can't remember. I am assuming that there is
definitely one at Highbury and Islington.

There isn't. You can pass freely between the NLL, Vic, and GN&C; the
only barriers are at the exit to the street.

My prediction is that it will charge the greater fare of Origin - Bank
and Origin - Hackney Wick, which would be the latter if you have a Z12
Travelcard, or the former if you just have PAYG.

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On 5 May, 20:35, asdf wrote:
On Mon, 5 May 2008 10:17:37 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:
You can also get to Bethnal Green without going to Z3, changing at Bow
Church/Road and Mile End.

Ah right. *That messes up my query. *I wonder if there is another
route that is priced via outer zones making it normally cheaper but
which could be done via zone 1 with a period travelcard? *Will need to
think. *The original was due to the fact that I really was thinking of
going to Bethnal Green (although didn't).

Make the destination Hackney Wick instead of Bethnal Green.

Engineering works have inhibited my ability to test this out (and
denied me an opportunity for some tourism in Hackney) but I think that
the only way it could be done in zone 1 and 2 only, without going
through a barrier (thus invalidating the experiment), would be via
Olympia and might take too long, specially with all the changes,
adding an interesting complication if it did decide to asume a PAYG
extension.

Or possibly via Bakerloo and Willesden Junction if that doesn't
involve a barrier, but I can't remember. *I am assuming that there is
definitely one at Highbury and Islington.

There isn't. You can pass freely between the NLL, Vic, and GN&C; the
only barriers are at the exit to the street.

I was forgetting that PAYG had already been accepted on NLL, and
assumed a legacy barrier.


My prediction is that it will charge the greater fare of Origin - Bank
and Origin - Hackney Wick, which would be the latter if you have a Z12
Travelcard, or the former if you just have PAYG.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

DLR to Bethnal Green: Priced via Bank or Stratford?
 

On Tue, 6 May 2008 04:50:46 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:

Or possibly via Bakerloo and Willesden Junction if that doesn't
involve a barrier, but I can't remember. *I am assuming that there is
definitely one at Highbury and Islington.

There isn't. You can pass freely between the NLL, Vic, and GN&C; the
only barriers are at the exit to the street.

I was forgetting that PAYG had already been accepted on NLL, and
assumed a legacy barrier.

There never was a barrier.