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Distribution of bus types in use
I haven't been to London for a few years. But I've heard a lot on
this newsgroup about the elimination of Routemasters except for a few "heritage" services, and the widespread introduction of articulated single-deck buses. What I haven't heard about is the status of the *other* double-deckers, the ones operated only by a driver. Are these still in use on some routes or have they been totally replaced without my hearing about it? If they are still in use, are they expected to be totally replaced? And what about the smaller single-deck buses that I used to see on some of the quieter routes? And are there other important subcategories these days that I didn't think to ask about? Are there statistics somewhere about how many buses are in use of each of these types, or how many routes they operate on? I'm just looking for a general idea here, and I don't particularly want to know about specific models of bus unless they differ in important ways. -- Mark Brader, Toronto "Information! ... We want information!" -- The Prisoner My text in this article is in the public domain. |
Distribution of bus types in use
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Distribution of bus types in use
On Sun, 18 May 2008, Mark Brader wrote:
I haven't been to London for a few years. But I've heard a lot on this newsgroup about the elimination of Routemasters except for a few "heritage" services, and the widespread introduction of articulated single-deck buses. 'Widespread' is perhaps too strong. Twelve routes (i think) use bendies. They are some of the busiest and most important, though, so you see them quite often if you're somewhere that's anywhere. What I haven't heard about is the status of the *other* double-deckers, the ones operated only by a driver. Are these still in use on some routes or have they been totally replaced without my hearing about it? They're still around, and account, i'd say, for the vast majority of buses. If they are still in use, are they expected to be totally replaced? No. Bendification was only ever planned for the busiest routes, as it's fairly expensive and requires good, wide roads. Double-deckers were always slated to carry on serving the majority of routes. Now that there's a moratorium on further bendification, and a possible rolling-back of bendies under the Boris, that's guaranteed. And what about the smaller single-deck buses that I used to see on some of the quieter routes? Yes, there are still plenty of those. And are there other important subcategories these days that I didn't think to ask about? A tracked, armoured bus is being trialled in Peckham. Are there statistics somewhere about how many buses are in use of each of these types, or how many routes they operate on? I'm just looking for a general idea here, and I don't particularly want to know about specific models of bus unless they differ in important ways. I can't immediately find any such data. I couldn't even find a definitive list of bendy-bus routes! tom -- These spoiled youths forget that when they are shaven they look like boiled potatoes. -- Tara Singh |
Distribution of bus types in use
On 18 May, 21:37, Tom Anderson wrote:
I can't immediately find any such data. I couldn't even find a definitive list of bendy-bus routes! Try the London Free Bus Map: http://www.philippekindelis.net/freetransport.htm U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Distribution of bus types in use
On 2008-05-18, Mark Brader wrote:
I haven't been to London for a few years. But I've heard a lot on this newsgroup about the elimination of Routemasters except for a few "heritage" services, and the widespread introduction of articulated single-deck buses. What I haven't heard about is the status of the *other* double-deckers, the ones operated only by a driver. Are these still in use on some routes or have they been totally replaced without my hearing about it? If they are still in use, are they expected to be totally replaced? And what about the smaller single-deck buses that I used to see on some of the quieter routes? And are there other important subcategories these days that I didn't think to ask about? Are there statistics somewhere about how many buses are in use of each of these types, or how many routes they operate on? I'm just looking for a general idea here, and I don't particularly want to know about specific models of bus unless they differ in important ways. http://www.londonbusroutes.net/routes.htm at least makes the bendies obvious, and http://www.londonbusroutes.net/details.htm has too much detail for you, but would show what are single-deck and double-deck routes (and usually the length of the bus type), but currently there are a number of routes in the list that say DD when they should say SD. E |
Distribution of bus types in use
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Distribution of bus types in use
On Sun, 18 May 2008 21:37:15 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote: Bendification was only ever planned for the busiest routes, as it's fairly expensive and requires good, wide roads. Like some of the ones they use in Central London! |
Distribution of bus types in use
On Sun, 18 May 2008 22:58:54 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote: Boris Johnson, the new Mayor, wants to consign all of these to the scrap yard. Is that actually true, or does he just want to stop using them on TfL services? |
Distribution of bus types in use
Paul Corfield wrote:
The most surprising (to me) aspect is how busy Sunday services are - I've been out most Sundays recently and many buses are full or near to full which is a big turn round from about 10 years ago when demand was much lower. Sometimes too full - how often are Sunday services reviewed and potentially expanded? One particular problem I've seen is the over reliance on existing bus routes to double as rail replacement services. The Central Line betwen Mile End and Stratford is the most obvious case in my normal routine and often I've found the 25 ridiculously crowded (even by its standards) and insufficiently frequent when there's no tube between those points. |
Distribution of bus types in use
On 19 May, 00:17, James Farrar wrote:
Is that actually true, or does he just want to stop using them on TfL services? Not even that. The most reason news is there'll be a design competition to see if anything better is possible, but if not, they'll stay. They seem to be slowly backing away from the policy, especially the "new Routemaster" part. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
Distribution of bus types in use
Tom Anderson wrote:
A tracked, armoured bus is being trialled in Peckham. This is a joke, isn't it? |
Distribution of bus types in use
On Mon, 19 May 2008, James Farrar wrote:
On Sun, 18 May 2008 21:37:15 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote: Bendification was only ever planned for the busiest routes, as it's fairly expensive and requires good, wide roads. Like some of the ones they use in Central London! They *require* good, wide roads. They don't always get them! tom -- If you had a chance to do any experiment you pleased, unconstrained by any considerations of humanity or decency, what would you choose? |
Distribution of bus types in use
On Mon, 19 May 2008, John Rowland wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote: A tracked, armoured bus is being trialled in Peckham. This is a joke, isn't it? Sadly, yes. There is that amphibious 'duck bus' that does sightseeing trips, though. We should get some of those in the TfL fleet. tom -- If you had a chance to do any experiment you pleased, unconstrained by any considerations of humanity or decency, what would you choose? |
Distribution of bus types in use
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Distribution of bus types in use
On May 19, 8:50 am, Martin Rich wrote:
You don't now see many of the very small buses that were once popular: there are exceptions such as routes H2/3 around Hampstead Garden Suburb, which serve roads which could not accommodate bigger vehicles. Theres lots of those still pottering around in north london. 326, 382 & W6 spring to mind. B2003 |
Distribution of bus types in use
On Mon, 19 May 2008 00:17:49 +0100, James Farrar
wrote: On Sun, 18 May 2008 22:58:54 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote: Boris Johnson, the new Mayor, wants to consign all of these to the scrap yard. Is that actually true, or does he just want to stop using them on TfL services? It was a turn of phrase. What I understand is the "policy" position is that bendy buses would be withdrawn from use on TfL services. What is very unclear is how and when this will be done. The other aspect that is unclear is whether the "new Routemaster" scheme is linked to the bendy bus issue or not. Only a few bendy routes are those previously run by RMs and thus we get to an interesting issue about whether the new RM, if it is ever built, would replace standard double decks on routes like the 13, 14, 19, 22, 390. Would they be deployed on routes like the 253 or 254 which are very, very busy and were run with RMs years before but which could justifiably be a stronger candidate for conversion back to crew than some other routes? Would the new RM be put onto routes like the 18 or 29 which are bendy now but were OPO double deck for years before conversion but which were frankly spending more time standing still at stops than going anywhere. None of this has been considered as far as I am aware - if it has then a very tight lid is being kept on the details for probably understandable reasons. You can imagine the campaigns to get the new RM on your local service - bang goes the budget for the scheme. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Distribution of bus types in use
On Mon, 19 May 2008 00:22:29 +0100, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: The most surprising (to me) aspect is how busy Sunday services are - I've been out most Sundays recently and many buses are full or near to full which is a big turn round from about 10 years ago when demand was much lower. Sometimes too full - how often are Sunday services reviewed and potentially expanded? The standard TfL answer is that routes are reviewed every 5 years about 18 months before they are retendered or considered for contract extension (if performance has been good). This is certainly the answer I have had from TfL when corresponding with them about my local services. When routes are retendered then some will get improved frequencies while a 2 year "good performance" extension also triggers frequency improvements and these are typically Evenings and Sundays. Service enhancements can occur independently of that cycle and I would guess that it is the result of surveys, operator or passenger feedback or review of performance information. If routes are chronically overloaded then their performance would fall. Oyster and ticket machine data is another source of info too. One particular problem I've seen is the over reliance on existing bus routes to double as rail replacement services. The Central Line betwen Mile End and Stratford is the most obvious case in my normal routine and often I've found the 25 ridiculously crowded (even by its standards) and insufficiently frequent when there's no tube between those points. I agree that the current extent of weekend engineering works is leading to diversion to bus services. The current Victoria Line closures at weekends either stop me using the tube altogether or else I transfer to the bus. I'm not a great enthusiast for the limited rail replacement services that operate. You cite the 25 as an example but the 25 has been awful for years no matter what day of the week. I remain amazed that it is as busy as it is given that it is duplicated over its length by other rail and bus routes. The Sunday 25 has recently been increased in frequency in an attempt to cope - it had a temporary enhancement between Aldgate and Stratford for a few months. Whether TfL will agree to increase the main service on M-S using spare former route 453 buses will be interesting - will Boris allow it!? -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Distribution of bus types in use
has too much detail for you, but would show what are single-deck and
double-deck routes (and usually the length of the bus type), but currently there are a number of routes in the list that say DD when they should say SD. I find to read that listing you do actually need to have some understanding of bus chassis and body types to know what is single deck and what double deck. In that listing SD means single door and DD dual door. |
Distribution of bus types in use
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Distribution of bus types in use
On Mon, 19 May 2008 01:35:33 -0700 (PDT), Boltar
wrote: On May 19, 8:50 am, Martin Rich wrote: You don't now see many of the very small buses that were once popular: there are exceptions such as routes H2/3 around Hampstead Garden Suburb, which serve roads which could not accommodate bigger vehicles. Theres lots of those still pottering around in north london. 326, 382 & W6 spring to mind. They are all different sizes though and considerably bigger than the Solos on the H2/3. The 326 vehicles are about 10m, the W6 just under and the 382 are midi Darts at 8.8m. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Distribution of bus types in use
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Distribution of bus types in use
On 19 May, 09:55, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 19 May 2008 00:22:29 +0100, "Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: The most surprising (to me) aspect is how busy Sunday services are - I've been out most Sundays recently and many buses are full or near to full which is a big turn round from about 10 years ago when demand was much lower. Sometimes too full - how often are Sunday services reviewed and potentially expanded? The standard TfL answer is that routes are reviewed every 5 years about 18 months before they are retendered or considered for contract extension (if performance has been good). *This is certainly the answer I have had from TfL when corresponding with them about my local services. When routes are retendered then some will get improved frequencies while a 2 year "good performance" extension also triggers frequency improvements and these are typically Evenings and Sundays. Service enhancements can occur independently of that cycle and I would guess that it is the result of surveys, operator or passenger feedback or review of performance information. *If routes are chronically overloaded then their performance would fall. Oyster and ticket machine data is another source of info too. One particular problem I've seen is the over reliance on existing bus routes to double as rail replacement services. The Central Line betwen Mile End and Stratford is the most obvious case in my normal routine and often I've found the 25 ridiculously crowded (even by its standards) and insufficiently frequent when there's no tube between those points. I agree that the current extent of weekend engineering works is leading to diversion to bus services. The current Victoria Line closures at weekends either stop me using the tube altogether or else I transfer to the bus. *I'm not a great enthusiast for the limited rail replacement services that operate. *You cite the 25 as an example but the 25 has been awful for years no matter what day of the week. I remain amazed that it is as busy as it is given that it is duplicated over its length by other rail and bus routes. *The Sunday 25 has recently been increased in frequency in an attempt to cope - it had a temporary enhancement between Aldgate and Stratford for a few months. *Whether TfL will agree to increase the main service on M-S using spare former route 453 buses will be interesting - will Boris allow it!? The 25 is now the only route along stretches that used to be covered by two or three overlapping routes such as the 86 and the 10, which must have taken a lot of pressure off it, given that not everyone goes all the way from Ilford to Oxford Circus. I am not completely clear how all the rationalisation has worked in terms of total capacity. |
Distribution of bus types in use
On Mon, 19 May 2008 06:52:55 -0700 (PDT), MIG
wrote: On 19 May, 09:55, Paul Corfield wrote: You cite the 25 as an example but the 25 has been awful for years no matter what day of the week. I remain amazed that it is as busy as it is given that it is duplicated over its length by other rail and bus routes. *The Sunday 25 has recently been increased in frequency in an attempt to cope - it had a temporary enhancement between Aldgate and Stratford for a few months. *Whether TfL will agree to increase the main service on M-S using spare former route 453 buses will be interesting - will Boris allow it!? The 25 is now the only route along stretches that used to be covered by two or three overlapping routes such as the 86 and the 10, which must have taken a lot of pressure off it, given that not everyone goes all the way from Ilford to Oxford Circus. I am not completely clear how all the rationalisation has worked in terms of total capacity. To be fair the 25 had one capacity boost not long after it went bendy plus the 205 was extended to Mile End within the last year. I accept there's a gap between Mile End and Stratford but that gets filled in by the new 425 in a few weeks time. Thus the 25 will be duplicated along almost all of its length - Aldgate to Bank being the gap. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Distribution of bus types in use
On 19 May, 15:13, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 19 May 2008 06:52:55 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote: On 19 May, 09:55, Paul Corfield wrote: You cite the 25 as an example but the 25 has been awful for years no matter what day of the week. I remain amazed that it is as busy as it is given that it is duplicated over its length by other rail and bus routes. *The Sunday 25 has recently been increased in frequency in an attempt to cope - it had a temporary enhancement between Aldgate and Stratford for a few months. *Whether TfL will agree to increase the main service on M-S using spare former route 453 buses will be interesting - will Boris allow it!? The 25 is now the only route along stretches that used to be covered by two or three overlapping routes such as the 86 and the 10, which must have taken a lot of pressure off it, given that not everyone goes all the way from Ilford to Oxford Circus. I am not completely clear how all the rationalisation has worked in terms of total capacity. To be fair the 25 had one capacity boost not long after it went bendy plus the 205 was extended to Mile End within the last year. *I accept there's a gap between Mile End and Stratford but that gets filled in by the new 425 in a few weeks time. Thus the 25 will be duplicated along almost all of its length - Aldgate to Bank being the gap. -- Been searching TfL to find where the 425 will go, but apart from "The consultation is closed" I can't seem to find anything. Will it cover part of the old 25 (Becontree Heath to Victoria, often in overlapping sections anyway) or does it branch off? |
Distribution of bus types in use
In message
, MIG writes Been searching TfL to find where the 425 will go, but apart from "The consultation is closed" I can't seem to find anything. Will it cover part of the old 25 (Becontree Heath to Victoria, often in overlapping sections anyway) or does it branch off? Unless the plan has changed, it will run from Stratford through Bow, Mile End and Homerton, terminating at Clapton, Nightingale Road. -- Paul Terry |
Distribution of bus types in use
On May 19, 5:41*pm, Paul Terry wrote:
In message , MIG writes Been searching TfL to find where the 425 will go, but apart from "The consultation is closed" I can't seem to find anything. Will it cover part of the old 25 (Becontree Heath to Victoria, often in overlapping sections anyway) or does it branch off? Unless the plan has changed, it will run from Stratford through Bow, Mile End and Homerton, terminating at Clapton, Nightingale Road. Ah thanks. Do you know where the plans can be found now? |
Distribution of bus types in use
In message
, MIG writes On May 19, 5:41*pm, Paul Terry wrote: Unless the plan has changed, it will run from Stratford through Bow, Mile End and Homerton, terminating at Clapton, Nightingale Road. Ah thanks. Do you know where the plans can be found now? http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...hive/6516.aspx -- Paul Terry |
Distribution of bus types in use
Martin Rich wrote:
One effect of the insistence on low-floor buses, whcih have really only been the norm for double-deckers for the last ten years or so, is that currently London has quite a young fleet of buses. About the oldest one-person double-deckers that you see are 'S' registration, which would have been new in 1998-9, but most are much newer than that. Yes. TfL achieved what has only happened once before in London: the replacement of almost the whole fleet over 7 years. The last time was 1947-54, when most existing buses were worn out after the war. I wonder if the current buses will last as long as the RTs and RFs did. Colin McKenzie -- No-one has ever proved that cycle helmets make cycling any safer at the population level, and anyway cycling is about as safe per mile as walking. Make an informed choice - visit www.cyclehelmets.org. |
Distribution of bus types in use
Mark Brader:
What I haven't heard about is the status of the *other* double-deckers, the ones operated only by a driver. Martin Rich: As others have already said, one-person double-deckers remain the commonest type in London. Thanks to Martin and others who have explained this. One effect of the insistence on low-floor buses, whcih have really only been the norm for double-deckers for the last ten years or so... The "low-floor" buses we're now getting in Toronto are only low-floor for about 2/3 of the bus, including both doors. To ride in the back of the bus you have to climb two steps. Compare the window heights in different parts of the bus in either of these photos (taken a few minutes' walk from my house, incidentally): http://transit.toronto.on.ca/images/TTC7860.JPG http://transit.toronto.on.ca/images/TTC7865%20CS.JPG This means that the rear wheels don't cut into the seating capacity and there's more space for underfloor equipment. But it also means that if the bus is full then it's quite likely that people will be on the steps or near the top of the steps when the driver brakes for a bus stop, and if they fall they'll fall forward down the steps. I think that's dangerous and I'm dismayed that it's being widely used here, but I remember encountering a similar design in London. Are most of the present London buses entirely low-floor, or split in a similar way, or of some other pattern? -- Mark Brader | "[Jupiter's] satellites are invisible to the naked eye Toronto | and therefore can have no influence on the Earth | and therefore would be useless | and therefore do not exist." -- Francesco Sizi My text in this article is in the public domain. |
Distribution of bus types in use
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Distribution of bus types in use
On Tue, 20 May 2008, Mark Brader wrote:
Mark Brader: What I haven't heard about is the status of the *other* double-deckers, the ones operated only by a driver. Martin Rich: As others have already said, one-person double-deckers remain the commonest type in London. Thanks to Martin and others who have explained this. One effect of the insistence on low-floor buses, whcih have really only been the norm for double-deckers for the last ten years or so... The "low-floor" buses we're now getting in Toronto are only low-floor for about 2/3 of the bus, including both doors. To ride in the back of the bus you have to climb two steps. Same here. At least, on the 210 i rode yesterday. It's low-floor throughout, except for the rearmost bay, where there are two rows of seats facing each other which are up two steps (er, and the top deck). The seats in front of the high-floor section are also a step up to the side from the main low floor. Those seats and the rearward-facing seats sit on top of the wheel arch. I like sitting right at the back, because i can prop my feet up on the wheel arch (not the seat, of course!). tom -- Get a bicycle. You will not regret it. If you live. -- Mark Twain |
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