On 4 Jun, 22:09, Sky Rider wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
I presume terminating the other off-peak trains at City Thameslink and
then perhaps parking them up in the Smithfield sidings until they're
due to head south again is considered impractical given the frequency
of trains on the core Thameslink route.

That is true, and according to Nick Lawford the sidings will close when
the Key Output 0 service starts.

By the by I've heard said sidings referred to as Ratfields before!


At Kentish Town I presume the benefit is that the fast Bedford trains
will be on the fast tracks, hence there's less opportunity for
terminating/reversing trains to jam up the whole Thameslink service.

*All* cross-London FCC TL services use the Moorgate (TL) lines south of
Kentish Town Jn (between West Hampstead Thameslink and Kentish Town).
Using the same point of reference,* services on the fast and
slow/carriage (MML) lines reverse at London St Pancras (high-level) and
Kentish Town respectively.

OK, thanks, I was a bit hazy on where the fast trains moved over (when
up this way on TL I'm normally on the slow trains, and evidently never
paid much attention when I've been on the fast trains, though now I
think about it I do recall waiting occasionally at Kentish Town with
fasts thundering through on the same line).


It is expected that off-peak joint FCC TL/SER services will
start/terminate at Kentish Town on the Moorgate lines, but only by
virtue of heading ECS to/from Cricklewood sidings.

Aha, right that makes more sense - reversing a train at Kentish Town
sounded like a recipe for disaster, but it looks like that was never
on the agenda (was it?). And that explains why people have been saying
that these trains might head further north - they could I suppose
terminate at West Hampstead or Cricklewood, and indeed this might
arguably be preferable given the extra time required to tip out as
compared to a normal stop.


[* OK, Carlton Road Jn (also between WHP and KTN) is the point of
reference for the fast lines since Kentish Town Jn does not include them]

On 4 Jun, 21:29, Mizter T wrote:
On 4 Jun, 20:44, wrote:

"Mr Thant" wrote:

It wouldn't be very useful. The interim arrangement is more about
having somewhere to send the peak services from the north with the
Moorgate branch gone. There's not really anywhere to terminate them,
so running them through as services to Kent (replacing the SET
Blackfriars services) is the only real option.

It's being shut. The platforms at Farringdon can't be extended to 12-
car length without fouling the junction towards Moorgate, so the
branch will be closed.

There are various suggestions here and elsewhere about the alignment
being used for stabling LU trains given that it's adjacent to the Met/
Circle/H&C, though nothing official.

Will we get 12-car trains on Thameslink before we get them on "Kent
Link"?

Another incomplete set of platform extensions on the way (plus the
closure of a route)

But another economic downturn will mean that some stations won't get
extended, the proposed frequency won't happen and trains will remain
eight coaches. But the Moorgate branch will sure as hell close, and
there will be huge disruption for the pointless work.

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

Permanent closure of the NR lines between Farringdon and Moorgate,
primarily so that the NR platforms at Farringdon can be extended
southwards over the existing junction for 12 car Thameslink trains.
Secondly, the 24 tph throughput planned for the central section could not
operate across the flat junction anyway, even if there was an alternative
way of extending the platforms - they can't extend to the north because of
the diveunder to get to the other side of the LU tracks.


When exactly is the closure due to happen and what will thus happen to the
tracks between Farringdon and Moorgate?

The parallel running of LUL trains from Farringdon to Moorgate via Barbican
probably does make this service redundant. But is there really no way of
extending the Farringdom platforms north?

On 5 Jun, 00:28, wrote:
"Paul Scott" wrote in message

...



Permanent closure of the NR lines between Farringdon and Moorgate,
primarily so that the NR platforms at Farringdon can be extended
southwards over the existing junction for 12 car Thameslink trains.
Secondly, the 24 tph throughput planned for the central section could not
operate across the flat junction anyway, even if there was an alternative
way of extending the platforms - they can't extend to the north because of
the diveunder to get to the other side of the LU tracks.

When exactly is the closure due to happen and what will thus happen to the
tracks between Farringdon and Moorgate?

March 2009 I think and no-one knows, one common suggestion is that
they could then be used for LU sidings. Talk on the District Dave
forum is that the new 7-car S-stock trains for the LU SSL lines are
going to be too long for some of the existing berthing points, so
perhaps here's a solution for that, perhaps not - without knowing all
the details it's hard to say.


The parallel running of LUL trains from Farringdon to Moorgate via Barbican
probably does make this service redundant. But is there really no way of
extending the Farringdom platforms north?

No, unless you totally rebuild everything including the alignment of
the Met/Circle line at massive cost whilst causing an enormous
disturbance.

The north end of the platforms are already at a fair old slope, and
even if they were to be extended to the north they still wouldn't be
long enough.

Here's a couple of photos from Wikipedia, though I'm not sure how well
they illustrate the true level of the incline:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:F...n_TL_north.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:F...C_overhead.JPG


I presume that the peaktime Thameslink through trains to Moorgate are
indeed popular with some City commuters, but in the future passengers
will be able to transfer at Farringdon to LU to do this journey. I can
see that the idea of a siding where trains to & from points north
could be reversed or 'parked up' if there was trouble further south
might be useful. However both of these factors have to be weighed
against the crucial need to increase capacity and hence lengthen
platforms. The Moorgate branch just isn't that important.

On 4 Jun, 23:35, MIG wrote:

On 4 Jun, 21:29, Mizter T wrote:

On 4 Jun, 20:44, wrote:

"Mr Thant" wrote:

It wouldn't be very useful. The interim arrangement is more about
having somewhere to send the peak services from the north with the
Moorgate branch gone. There's not really anywhere to terminate them,
so running them through as services to Kent (replacing the SET
Blackfriars services) is the only real option.

It's being shut. The platforms at Farringdon can't be extended to 12-
car length without fouling the junction towards Moorgate, so the
branch will be closed.

There are various suggestions here and elsewhere about the alignment
being used for stabling LU trains given that it's adjacent to the Met/
Circle/H&C, though nothing official.

Will we get 12-car trains on Thameslink before we get them on "Kent
Link"?

For a second there I thought you were coining a snazzy new phrase for
these quasi-Thameslink Kentish Town terminators which will come up
from Sevenoaks (and currently only get as far as Blackfriars).

But then I realised you were giving us a history lesson of how things
don't always work out as they should.


Another incomplete set of platform extensions on the way (plus the
closure of a route)

But another economic downturn will mean that some stations won't get
extended, the proposed frequency won't happen and trains will remain
eight coaches. But the Moorgate branch will sure as hell close, and
there will be huge disruption for the pointless work.


What a delightfully bleak view!

Thameslink 2000 seems to be a pretty committed project. As for
Crossrail...

On Jun 4, 11:07*pm, Mizter T wrote:
It is expected that off-peak joint FCC TL/SER services will
start/terminate at Kentish Town on the Moorgate lines, but only by
virtue of heading ECS to/from Cricklewood sidings.

Aha, right that makes more sense - reversing a train at Kentish Town
sounded like a recipe for disaster, but it looks like that was never
on the agenda (was it?). And that explains why people have been saying
that these trains might head further north - they could I suppose
terminate at West Hampstead or Cricklewood, and indeed this might
arguably be preferable given the extra time required to tip out as
compared to a normal stop.

I'd go further and say that FCC/SER *should* terminate these services
at West Hampstead rather than Kentish Town as this would create an
interchange and, through it, new journey possibilities for Jubilee and
LO users.

THC

On Jun 4, 10:09*pm, Sky Rider wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
I presume terminating the other off-peak trains at City Thameslink and
then perhaps parking them up in the Smithfield sidings until they're
due to head south again is considered impractical given the frequency
of trains on the core Thameslink route.

That is true, and according to Nick Lawford the sidings will close when
the Key Output 0 service starts.

At Kentish Town I presume the benefit is that the fast Bedford trains
will be on the fast tracks, hence there's less opportunity for
terminating/reversing trains to jam up the whole Thameslink service.

*All* cross-London FCC TL services use the Moorgate (TL) lines south of
Kentish Town Jn (between West Hampstead Thameslink and Kentish Town).
Using the same point of reference,* services on the fast and
slow/carriage (MML) lines reverse at London St Pancras (high-level) and
Kentish Town respectively.

It is expected that off-peak joint FCC TL/SER services will
start/terminate at Kentish Town on the Moorgate lines, but only by
virtue of heading ECS to/from Cricklewood sidings.

[* OK, Carlton Road Jn (also between WHP and KTN) is the point of
reference for the fast lines since Kentish Town Jn does not include them]

I'm not sure why the off-peak joint TL/SER services would have to run
ECS to cricklewood sidings. There is spare platform capacity (4
platforms, 6 tracks) at Kentish Town and the current SER service is
only every 30 mins. Running ECS to cricklewood just moves the conflict
with existing services further north, the northbound terminating
trains would have to cross the southbound at a flat junction. Whereas
at Kentish Town, the northbound terminating trains can stop in the
current 'normal' northbound platform whilst the northbound thameslink
trains run past on the other side of the island, as sometimes happens
already when there is a service disruption.

Just because the northbound 'fast' TL trains currently stay on the
Down Moorgate line through the station, doesn't mean that they have to
keep doing so from the timetable change.

The other question is what happens to the imbalance in services during
the peak. At present there are more Moorgate terminators than there
are Blackfriars terminators, so where are the 'extras' from the north
going to go?

Andy wrote:
On Jun 4, 10:09 pm, Sky Rider wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
I presume terminating the other off-peak trains at City Thameslink
and then perhaps parking them up in the Smithfield sidings until
they're due to head south again is considered impractical given the
frequency of trains on the core Thameslink route.


The other question is what happens to the imbalance in services during
the peak. At present there are more Moorgate terminators than there
are Blackfriars terminators, so where are the 'extras' from the north
going to go?

There is a new turnback siding currently being installed at Herne Hill
especially for Thameslink Key Output 0.

Paul S

On 5 Jun, 12:03, "Paul Scott" wrote:

Andy wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
I presume terminating the other off-peak trains at City Thameslink
and then perhaps parking them up in the Smithfield sidings until
they're due to head south again is considered impractical given the
frequency of trains on the core Thameslink route.

The other question is what happens to the imbalance in services during
the peak. At present there are more Moorgate terminators than there
are Blackfriars terminators, so where are the 'extras' from the north
going to go?

There is a new turnback siding currently being installed at Herne Hill
especially for Thameslink Key Output 0.


Aha, now that's what that's for, all now becomes clear (ish).

Where will these trains from the north tip out then - Loughborough Jn,
Elephant, Blackfriars?

On Jun 5, 12:03*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
Andy wrote:
On Jun 4, 10:09 pm, Sky Rider wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
I presume terminating the other off-peak trains at City Thameslink
and then perhaps parking them up in the Smithfield sidings until
they're due to head south again is considered impractical given the
frequency of trains on the core Thameslink route.

The other question is what happens to the imbalance in services during
the peak. At present there are more Moorgate terminators than there
are Blackfriars terminators, so where are the 'extras' from the north
going to go?

There is a new turnback siding currently being installed at Herne Hill
especially for Thameslink Key Output 0.


Arrgghhh, I completely forgot about the new siding at Herne Hill.
Shame that there's no room for an extra platform at Herne Hill to
allow the trains to run in service and prevent the 'tipping out'
delays.