On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 19:11:25 +0100, Steve Fitzgerald
] wrote:

In message , Scott
writes

It must be very common for people in that situation to be in the habit
of touching their Oyster at every gate, thus getting charged twice
(and possibly unresolved journeys). If the ODTC was on Oyster, it
would know not to charge PAYG.

Much better to include National Rail in the PAYG and Oyster capping
arrangements.

No doubt he was, though he isn't now, having been voted out of office.
Not that you'd realise it, the way the press are repeating his every
word.

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:38:44 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 19:11:25 +0100, Steve Fitzgerald
] wrote:

I actually guess there will always be a need for the ODTC if only to
appease the ATOC in ticket issuing.

There is that. But I can see LUL wanting to do away with magstripe
tickets completely as it'd save them money in maintaining the
barriers.

Won't happen because of the through ticketing arrangements across
London. TfL may end up issuing a tiny amount of magnetic tickets but I
don't see a move towards complete removal. You might get certain
walkways being Oyster only but probably only at the biggest stations.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


"Scott" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not
the
ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless
Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still
need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will
the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.

So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?

There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.

There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.

Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about
3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.

I'm answering the question that was asked:

"how much more is an 'add on' zone 1 ticket from outside Zone 6 than a SDR
to London"

tim

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:57:07 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the
ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless
Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still
need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.
So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?
There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.
There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.
Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about
3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.

Taking a step back, you and Michael have made my point very well. I
am entirely disinterested in having to think about the intricacies of
ticketing theory before making a journey on public transport. I just
want to wave the blue card about and get on my way.

Go ahead and do so, you'll just pay a few more quid each day if you do
it that way. But please don't try to eliminate the option for those who
would prefer to save that money.

There are winners and losers in every change. Fares are set to
produce an intended level of revenue. Any zonal system distributes
the cost fairly crudely between users. There is no reason why Oyster
card should result in higher fares overall. It is just a matter of
setting the level of fares to produce the required revenue.

A clue here is in the name - Transport FOR London. Those living
elsewhere just have to fit in. If you live in Edinburgh you have to
get yourself to London and get a ticket when you get there and I don't
see why anyone else should be treated differently. Everyone has the
option to buy an Oyser card so there is no discrimination against
non-Londoners in that respect.

It is now recognised that one of the biggest problems with the rail
system is the complexity of the fares. Look at the simplification
currently taking place with National Rail fares. We need to get rid
of outdated technical distinctions that are of interest to 'anoraks'
and move to a simple fare structure that users (and perhaps more
importantly non-users) can understand. If some pay a bit more and
others a bit less then so be it. That is what happened when the zones
were introduced. That is what happens to non Oyster users paying £4
on the tube instead of £1.50.

So I say as soon as National Rail services in the London area are
equipped with Oyster then Oyser card should become the only form of
One Day Travelcard. Bring it on.

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


"Scott" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not
the
ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless
Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still
need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will
the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.

So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?

There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.

There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.

Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about
3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.

Taking a step back, you and Michael have made my point very well. I
am entirely disinterested in having to think about the intricacies of
ticketing theory before making a journey on public transport. I just
want to wave the blue card about and get on my way.

I am sure most passengers have no interest in 'out-boundary
Travelcards', 'zone edge options' or anything else. They just want ot
get from A to B. What we need is a simply system that is easy to
understand and easy to use.

Oyster card is the way forward. Bring it on.

The problem here isn't the willingness of TFL to implement, or the user to
use, it's the (lack of) willingness of the TOCs to install Oyster validators
at their stations. Until that happens, the idea is a non-starter, so no
amount of coercion will make the many South Londoners who have no local
underground station, use Oyster this way.

tim

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:34:48 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


"Scott" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not
the
ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless
Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still
need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will
the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.

So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?

There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.

There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.

Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about
3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.

I'm answering the question that was asked:

"how much more is an 'add on' zone 1 ticket from outside Zone 6 than a SDR
to London"

tim

Sorry, I misread it late at night. I was not thinking about
Railcards. I see what you mean. So it is £1.30 less than the capping
that would be applied by the Oyser card (which would charge £4.80).

As I said in my other posting there will be winners and losers in any
change, but some passengers paying an extra £1.30 seems to me a small
price to pay for all the benefits that flexible cashless ticketing
brings.

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:40:26 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


"Scott" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not
the
ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless
Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still
need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will
the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.

So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?

There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.

There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.

Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about
3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.

Taking a step back, you and Michael have made my point very well. I
am entirely disinterested in having to think about the intricacies of
ticketing theory before making a journey on public transport. I just
want to wave the blue card about and get on my way.

I am sure most passengers have no interest in 'out-boundary
Travelcards', 'zone edge options' or anything else. They just want ot
get from A to B. What we need is a simply system that is easy to
understand and easy to use.

Oyster card is the way forward. Bring it on.

The problem here isn't the willingness of TFL to implement, or the user to
use, it's the (lack of) willingness of the TOCs to install Oyster validators
at their stations. Until that happens, the idea is a non-starter, so no
amount of coercion will make the many South Londoners who have no local
underground station, use Oyster this way.

tim

I understand that. My argument is that after the TOCs install Oyster
validators in all stations in the TfL area Oyster card should become
ths sole form of One Day Travelcard. The thread has launched off in
two directions and I have posted a longer explanation elsewhere.

I understand the any lack of willingness of the TOCs will be resolved
when they discover the terms of the next franchise deal.

On 29 Jun, 20:35, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:
It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

They will be able to, from the stations in the provinces as a paper
ticket.

They won't be able to once in London, but why would they want to,
having travelled into London?
Don't see the problem above.....

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:36:05 +0100, Scott
wrote:

There are winners and losers in every change. Fares are set to
produce an intended level of revenue. Any zonal system distributes
the cost fairly crudely between users. There is no reason why Oyster
card should result in higher fares overall. It is just a matter of
setting the level of fares to produce the required revenue.

[...]

So I say as soon as National Rail services in the London area are
equipped with Oyster then Oyser card should become the only form of
One Day Travelcard. Bring it on.

I would add "within London" to that... There is *no* reason at all
why "out-boundary" (from outside zone 6) paper One Day Travelcards
should not continue to exist - the same is true for
weekly/monthly/etc. - even if Oyster becomes the only way to get an
equivalent product within the zones.

Surely what we are discussing here is a sensible change TfL are making
to their own retailing arrangements, even if misunderstood by some
agents, and nothing to do with the train companies and what happens on
National Rail.

Richard.

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:57:07 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Scott wrote:

It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the
ODTC +
return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless
Oyster is
going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still
need to
be able to buy this Travelcard option.

You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
twice. An interesting point that I had not thought of. But will the
discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
No.
So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
to an off-peak rail ticket?
There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.
There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
from the same place to Zones 1-2. That was the question. I do not
know all the terminology.
Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the
differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.

If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about
3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.

I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.

Taking a step back, you and Michael have made my point very well. I
am entirely disinterested in having to think about the intricacies of
ticketing theory before making a journey on public transport. I just
want to wave the blue card about and get on my way.
Go ahead and do so, you'll just pay a few more quid each day if you do
it that way. But please don't try to eliminate the option for those who
would prefer to save that money.

There are winners and losers in every change. Fares are set to
produce an intended level of revenue. Any zonal system distributes
the cost fairly crudely between users. There is no reason why Oyster
card should result in higher fares overall. It is just a matter of
setting the level of fares to produce the required revenue.

A clue here is in the name - Transport FOR London.

Travelcards are not a TfL-exclusive product.

Those living elsewhere just have to fit in.

Apparently, for now you are just going to have to fit in. Sorry if you
don't like it.
--
Michael Hoffman