On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:08:07 -0700 (PDT), John B
wrote:

...which makes sense. It's a shame they haven't arranged for London
Midland to stop at Queens Park during the trial period, though.

LM do not need overcrowding to their mid-distance services as a result
of underprovision of local services caused by a childish and
poorly-planned experiment.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 01:14:22 -0700 (PDT), Andy
wrote:

The more overcrowded services seem to be those that are
first stop Watford and then most stops to Milton Keynes.

From what I can see, the *most* overcrowded are the Tring locals,
followed by the Bletchley semi-locals, followed by the
Leighton/MKC/Northampton fasts, followed by the (Harrow), Watford then
most stops to Northampton runs as the least busy.

But remember that the LM timetable won't now change substantially in
the near future after the 2009 changes, and it needs to take into
account massive growth in the Milton Keynes/Bletchley to/from Euston
run. Thus, piling on the local passengers makes about as much sense
as crowding out Euston to Glasgow services between Euston and MKC,
which VT are very keen on avoiding.

LO do have a point in that the Bakerloo might actually take up the
slack (and given that most people aren't actually going *to* Euston it
probably will), with people changing from that as appropriate. But
does the Bakerloo have capacity?

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 02:17:59 -0700 (PDT), John B
wrote:

Really? Unless things have changed a lot since it was Silverlink
County, I'm sceptical - I've *never* seen a peak SC train that was
overcrowded. But maybe my experience commuting on the NLL has
permanently warped my understanding of what the term "overcrowded"
means when applied to a train.

And I enjoy my daily pretty-much-guaranteed seat on some LM services.
But I only really get that by turning up quite early on the way home
(except during August when things are a bit quieter). Anyway, just
because some services are crush-loaded doesn't mean they all should
be.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Aug 20, 8:21*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 01:14:22 -0700 (PDT), Andy
wrote:

The more overcrowded services seem to be those that are
first stop Watford and then most stops to Milton Keynes.

From what I can see, the *most* overcrowded are the Tring locals,
followed by the Bletchley semi-locals, followed by the
Leighton/MKC/Northampton fasts, followed by the (Harrow), Watford then
most stops to Northampton runs as the least busy.


Probably true, although the Harrow stops seem to vary between the
Tring locals and the Bletchley semi-locals and even these are never
overloaded, just a seat is not guaranteed unless you arrive a few mins
before departure.

But remember that the LM timetable won't now change substantially in
the near future after the 2009 changes, and it needs to take into
account massive growth in the Milton Keynes/Bletchley to/from Euston
run. *Thus, piling on the local passengers makes about as much sense
as crowding out Euston to Glasgow services between Euston and MKC,
which VT are very keen on avoiding.


True, but London Midland do have the possibility of lengthening all
their remaining peak trains to 12 coaches. This is a luxury that few
of the other London commuter operators have without Network Rail
spending money on the infrastructure. I would certainly expect a few
peak trains will get longer as the new class 350s come on line, as the
class 321s are not fully diagrammed, even with units on loan
elsewhere.

LO do have a point in that the Bakerloo might actually take up the
slack (and given that most people aren't actually going *to* Euston it
probably will), with people changing from that as appropriate. But
does the Bakerloo have capacity?

There are actually quite a few employers around Euston (e.g. UCLH,
UCL, University of London), and I know several people who commute into
Euston as it means that they can walk to work for the last bit. If you
look at the passengers after they pass though the gates, I'd reckon
that it is about a 60:40 split between walking down to the underground
station and upto the concourse. Like you say, it will be interesting
to see how flows change whilst LO are not serving Euston.

On Aug 20, 8:23*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 02:17:59 -0700 (PDT), John B
wrote:

Really? Unless things have changed a lot since it was Silverlink
County, I'm sceptical - I've *never* seen a peak SC train that was
overcrowded. But maybe my experience commuting on the NLL has
permanently warped my understanding of what the term "overcrowded"
means when applied to a train.

And I enjoy my daily pretty-much-guaranteed seat on some LM services.
But I only really get that by turning up quite early on the way home
(except during August when things are a bit quieter). *Anyway, just
because some services are crush-loaded doesn't mean they all should
be.


Surprisingly I find it worse during August. I think this is because of
the number of families on a day trip to London for who the obvious
'home time' is the evening rush, but this maybe because I'm on the
shorter range trains.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:26:04 -0700 (PDT), Andy
wrote:

True, but London Midland do have the possibility of lengthening all
their remaining peak trains to 12 coaches.

No, they don't, as they are constrained by the middle platforms at
Euston not being 12 cars long, and by Bletchley's platforms 4 and 5
being only 8 cars long. (Hopefully once Bletchley depot is dispensed
with completely those two can be extended across what is currently the
junction).

This is a luxury that few
of the other London commuter operators have without Network Rail
spending money on the infrastructure. I would certainly expect a few
peak trains will get longer as the new class 350s come on line, as the
class 321s are not fully diagrammed, even with units on loan
elsewhere.

They are a 1-1 replacement for the 321s, and currently the reliability
figures are vastly better for 321 than Desiro.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Andy wrote:
On Aug 20, 8:21 pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

But remember that the LM timetable won't now change substantially in
the near future after the 2009 changes, and it needs to take into
account massive growth in the Milton Keynes/Bletchley to/from Euston
run. Thus, piling on the local passengers makes about as much sense
as crowding out Euston to Glasgow services between Euston and MKC,
which VT are very keen on avoiding.

True, but London Midland do have the possibility of lengthening all
their remaining peak trains to 12 coaches. This is a luxury that few
of the other London commuter operators have without Network Rail
spending money on the infrastructure. I would certainly expect a few
peak trains will get longer as the new class 350s come on line, as the
class 321s are not fully diagrammed, even with units on loan
elsewhere.

As I've just pointed out elsewhere, there are two new hourly services north
of Northampton to cover. The 350s replace 321s 1 for 1, there'll be no
increase in overall numbers...

Paul

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:28:01 -0700 (PDT), Andy
wrote:

Surprisingly I find it worse during August. I think this is because of
the number of families on a day trip to London for who the obvious
'home time' is the evening rush, but this maybe because I'm on the
shorter range trains.

There's some of that on the way home, but not on the ones I use
(mainly 1824 from Euston, but sometimes the 1823 if I've gone from
MKC).

On the way out, currently there are seats spare even after Watford on
the 0711 from Bletchley, when normally there will be one or two
standing per coach from Leighton.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Andy wrote:

There are actually quite a few employers around Euston (e.g. UCLH,
UCL, University of London), and I know several people who commute into
Euston as it means that they can walk to work for the last bit. If you
look at the passengers after they pass though the gates, I'd reckon
that it is about a 60:40 split between walking down to the underground
station and upto the concourse.

How many of those are Euston Square bound?

On 20 Aug, 09:14, Andy wrote
Peak London Midland services are not severely overcrowded from Euston
to Harrow (maybe with the exception of the 4 car 19.04 departure in
the evening). Sure there are usually a few people standing, but the
doorways and aisles are not packed at all.

I've been left behind at Harrow going northbound when there wasn't
space -- after people had got off and others had got on. That was on a
12 train in the evening peak.

Only this Monday, the 18.04
departure stopped additionally at Queens Park due to the Bakerloo line
(and DC line) having delays due to a signal failure at Willesden
Junction and it didn't get uncomfortably full after leaving Queens
Park. I very much doubt that anyone would get left behind at Euston.

Wish I'd known that when I was sat at Willesden Jn at 17:45 trying to
get to harrow for 18:16 to get on that very train. grr.

I suppose making Queens park and Harrow pick-up-only Northbound (in
the peaks) would free up enough space on the services.

How would that help, when at least 100 people get on (morning) or off
(evening) each trains at Harrow each day and there is no capacity for
them on the DC lines.

It would mean 100 less people getting on/off at harrow, meaning the
trains aren't as crowded, and dont leave people behind at Euston.
While the trains can just about cope when all is well, when there's
the slightest problem it all goes to pot.

As I said before, the Harrow stoppers are not
overcrowded. The more overcrowded services seem to be those that are
first stop Watford and then most stops to Milton Keynes.

In peak most trains to/from mkc stop at harrow, and are acceptable
north of there. When the masses get on at harrow things become very
uncomfortable, and squeezing on even now at Euston isn't easy.