Accident in Croydon
 

There was an accident involving a bus, a (reported to be parked) car, a
tram, and possibly a moving car, in George Street, Croydon this morning.
Unfortunately the pedestrian was killed, and the bus driver injured.

It seems to be a slightly out-of-the-ordinary accident - the tram and
bus have ended up quite a way from each other.

http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/...detail/article.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-Croydon.html

(people should avoid the Mail's pictures if they would be offended by
knowing it is tram 2534).
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Accident in Croydon
 

That was nasty, from the pictures it appears that the bus ended up on
the pavement and was corrdored(?) between bollards and shopfronts.
Anyone on the pavement wouldn't have had much chance.

Accident in Croydon
 

On 7 Sep, 17:26, Arthur Figgis wrote:
There was an accident involving a bus, a (reported to be parked) car, a
tram, and possibly a moving car, in George Street, Croydon this morning.
Unfortunately the pedestrian was killed, and the bus driver injured.

It seems to be a slightly out-of-the-ordinary accident - the tram and
bus have ended up quite a way from each other.

http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/...an-killed-tram....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-horrific-bus...


A pretty horrendous accident. The first link is to the Croydon
Advertiser (aka This is Croydon Today) article, which provides the
most information, whilst the Daily Mail story has the pictures.

A bus swerving to avoid a car would appear to be the genesis of the
accident. Two things in the story caught my eye in particular - first
off, the possibility that the traffic lights (which also control tram
movements) had failed, though it's important to note that this is in
no way confirmed (just because a copper on the scene says so to a
local hack doesn't mean it was so). Secondly, the apparent reason why
the bus travelled so far being that the driver had been knocked
unconscious.

The Mail story says that Police Collision Investigation officers are
looking in to the accident. It's interesting to consider where the
emphasis of investigation of incidents falls when a tram is involved,
given that HMRI is the safety regulator (for want of a better phrase)
of the tram system, and BTP is responsible for policing the system.
This incident would appear to be more of a road traffic accident and
thus fall within the domain of the local (Met) police, however *if*
(and that is a big if) the traffic signals had in some way
malfunctioned then things would become more interesting given the
interface between highway and tramway signalling.

Accident in Croydon
 

"Mizter T" wrote

The Mail story says that Police Collision Investigation officers are
looking in to the accident. It's interesting to consider where the
emphasis of investigation of incidents falls when a tram is involved,
given that HMRI is the safety regulator (for want of a better phrase)
of the tram system, and BTP is responsible for policing the system.
This incident would appear to be more of a road traffic accident and
thus fall within the domain of the local (Met) police, however *if*
(and that is a big if) the traffic signals had in some way
malfunctioned then things would become more interesting given the
interface between highway and tramway signalling.

It will be worth keeping an eye on the RAIB site to see if they open an
investigation, though they probably won't if, as you suggest, it was
essentially a road traffic collision.

Peter

Accident in Croydon
 

In message , Arthur
Figgis writes

It seems to be a slightly out-of-the-ordinary accident - the tram and
bus have ended up quite a way from each other.

According to several eye-witness reports, the bus driver was knocked
unconscious in the collision, but the bus continued running in gear
until brought to a halt when it rammed a parked car. One can only
speculate how worse the tragedy would have been on a weekday.
--
Paul Terry

Accident in Croydon
 

Mizter T wrote:

A bus swerving to avoid a car would appear to be the genesis of the
accident. ... *if* (and that is a big if) the traffic signals had in
some way malfunctioned then things would become more interesting
given the interface between highway and tramway signalling.

I don't follow your reasoning. If the genesis of the accident is a bus
swerving to miss a car, then I can't see that the tram's signalling is
in any way implicated.


--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632956.html
(43 084 at Basingstoke, May 1995)

Accident in Croydon
 

Chris Tolley wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

A bus swerving to avoid a car would appear to be the genesis of the
accident. ... *if* (and that is a big if) the traffic signals had in
some way malfunctioned then things would become more interesting
given the interface between highway and tramway signalling.

I don't follow your reasoning. If the genesis of the accident is a bus
swerving to miss a car, then I can't see that the tram's signalling is
in any way implicated.

Presumably the road and tram signals are interlinked in some way, to
avoid a tram being sent into the path of cars, or vice versa.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Accident in Croydon
 

On Sep 7, 7:46*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

The Mail story says that Police Collision Investigation officers are
looking in to the accident. It's interesting to consider where the
emphasis of investigation of incidents falls when a tram is involved,
given that HMRI is the safety regulator (for want of a better phrase)
of the tram system, and BTP is responsible for policing the system.
This incident would appear to be more of a road traffic accident and
thus fall within the domain of the local (Met) police, however *if*
(and that is a big if) the traffic signals had in some way
malfunctioned then things would become more interesting given the
interface between highway and tramway signalling.

It will be worth keeping an eye on the RAIB site to see if they open an
investigation, though they probably won't if, as you suggest, it was
essentially a road traffic collision.


The RAIB was also at the back of my mind when I wrote the above but
for some reason not at the front of my mind.

If (big if again) there was any malfunction of traffic signals linked
to the tram system then I presume they'd be very interested indeed,
but that's far from being a known at the moment.

Accident in Croydon
 

In message , at 19:51:23 on Sun, 7
Sep 2008, Paul Terry remarked:
According to several eye-witness reports, the bus driver was knocked
unconscious in the collision, but the bus continued running in gear
until brought to a halt when it rammed a parked car.

So did the bus swerve around a car and hit the tram, then later hit a
car; or are there two dented cars? They "both" seem to be silver.
--
Roland Perry

Accident in Croydon
 

Arthur Figgis writes:

Presumably the road and tram signals are interlinked in some way, to
avoid a tram being sent into the path of cars, or vice versa.

On the other hand, where a tram is running along a road, is there any
need for it to have separate signals? Would it not suffice for it to
have to obey the same red/amber/green traffic lights as other traffic?

Accident in Croydon
 

On Sep 7, 8:46*pm, Chris Tolley wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
A bus swerving to avoid a car would appear to be the genesis of the
accident. ... *if* (and that is a big if) the traffic signals had in
some way malfunctioned then things would become more interesting
given the interface between highway and tramway signalling.

I don't follow your reasoning. If the genesis of the accident is a bus
swerving to miss a car, then I can't see that the tram's signalling is
in any way implicated.


Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. In Croydon, as is the case
elsewhere with other tram systems, the highway traffic control signals
are linked in to the tram's signalling system so as to enable trams to
negotiate a variety of road junctions - this evidently requires a more
complex set of interlinking/interoperability (or even 'interlocking'
as it were) between the highway signals and the tram network's
signalling system. On top of that one can assume that at least some of
the highway signals in the area are co-ordinated with each other as
part of a traffic management setup (as I'm sure is the case in central
Croydon).

*If* the highway signals (indeed and the tram signals) had
malfunctioned then this could have caused or contributed towards the
car and/or bus (indeed and/or tram) being in the wrong place, hence
the relevance of this factor.

The reason I even mentioned signalling in the first place was the
'Croydon Today' article contained the suggestion, made by a witness,
that traffic lights might have been at fault - but one should note
that this is by no means verified information.

For the record, because local newspaper websites do get rejigged with
some regularity, here is a pertinent extract from the 'Croydon Today'
article:

quote
Road sweeper Martin Storm, 54, from Church Street, Croydon, who saw
the crash, said:
"The bus was coming up Park Street and swerved to avoid a car which
was coming down Wellesley Road.
"The bus driver swerved left to avoid the silver car. The bus driver
tried to avoid everything, but he couldn't avoid it.
"The car has got stuck between the tram stop and the bus and was
crushed.
The driver of the tram was really upset, but it wasn't their fault. I
was behind it all, there was blood everywhere."
He added: "The police told me the traffic lights had failed and were
all on green."
However while saying the traffic lights was one area which would be
looked at during the investigation, police today did not confirm they
had not been working.
/quote

Source:
http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/...l/article.html

Accident in Croydon
 

Mizter T wrote:

On Sep 7, 8:46*pm, Chris Tolley wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
A bus swerving to avoid a car would appear to be the genesis of the
accident. ... *if* (and that is a big if) the traffic signals had in
some way malfunctioned then things would become more interesting
given the interface between highway and tramway signalling.

I don't follow your reasoning. If the genesis of the accident is a bus
swerving to miss a car, then I can't see that the tram's signalling is
in any way implicated.


Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. In Croydon, as is the case
elsewhere with other tram systems, the highway traffic control signals
are linked in to the tram's signalling system so as to enable trams to
negotiate a variety of road junctions - this evidently requires a more
complex set of interlinking/interoperability (or even 'interlocking'
as it were) between the highway signals and the tram network's
signalling system. On top of that one can assume that at least some of
the highway signals in the area are co-ordinated with each other as
part of a traffic management setup (as I'm sure is the case in central
Croydon).

*If* the highway signals (indeed and the tram signals) had
malfunctioned then this could have caused or contributed towards the
car and/or bus (indeed and/or tram) being in the wrong place, hence
the relevance of this factor.

Okay, that's clearer. Thanks.

--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632771.html
(20 077 at Buxton, Jun 1985)

Accident in Croydon
 

Graham Murray wrote:

Arthur Figgis writes:

Presumably the road and tram signals are interlinked in some way, to
avoid a tram being sent into the path of cars, or vice versa.

On the other hand, where a tram is running along a road, is there any
need for it to have separate signals? Would it not suffice for it to
have to obey the same red/amber/green traffic lights as other traffic?

One can imagine good reasons for there being a separate signal for the
tram, including the phasing of tram signals being different and,
especially in situations where there are multiple lanes of traffic, the
need to give a signal that applies to the tram but not to traffic.

--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632899.html
(33 119 at Eastleigh, 15 May 1985)

Accident in Croydon
 

On 8 Sep, 06:26, Graham Murray wrote:
On the other hand, where a tram is running along a road, is there any
need for it to have separate signals? Would it not suffice for it to
have to obey the same red/amber/green traffic lights as other traffic?

Croydon Tramlink doesn't have a signalling system. It's fairer to say
that the traffic light system includes lights targeted at tram
drivers.

U

Accident in Croydon
 

On Sep 8, 7:43*am, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 8 Sep, 06:26, Graham Murray wrote:

On the other hand, where a tram is running along a road, is there any
need for it to have separate signals? Would it not suffice for it to
have to obey the same red/amber/green traffic lights as other traffic?

Croydon Tramlink doesn't have a signalling system. It's fairer to say
that the traffic light system includes lights targeted at tram
drivers.

As it might have for different lanes of traffic in any case,
presumably, given that trams have their own lanes.

Accident in Croydon
 

"Mr Thant" wrote in message
...
On 8 Sep, 06:26, Graham Murray wrote:
On the other hand, where a tram is running along a road, is there any
need for it to have separate signals? Would it not suffice for it to
have to obey the same red/amber/green traffic lights as other traffic?

Croydon Tramlink doesn't have a signalling system. It's fairer to say
that the traffic light system includes lights targeted at tram
drivers.

U
Surely the white lights which show horizontal (stop), vertical (go) and
diagonal (junction) count as signals? The drivers certainly treat them like
signals!

MaxB

Accident in Croydon
 

"Batman55" wrote

Surely the white lights which show horizontal (stop), vertical (go) and
diagonal (junction) count as signals? The drivers certainly treat them
like
signals!

Indeed they are. Tram drivers are not required to observe road
(red/amber/green) traffic lights, but there will be a white dot signal head
at the same location. These are also to be found at junctions, level
crossings, and at the section of interlaced track. Elsewhere the trams are
driven on sight.

Peter

Accident in Croydon
 

Arthur Figgis wrote:
There was an accident involving a bus, a (reported to be parked) car, a
tram, and possibly a moving car, in George Street, Croydon this morning.
Unfortunately the pedestrian was killed, and the bus driver injured.

It seems to be a slightly out-of-the-ordinary accident - the tram and
bus have ended up quite a way from each other.

http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/...detail/article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-Croydon.html


(people should avoid the Mail's pictures if they would be offended by
knowing it is tram 2534).

The bit that makes the least sense to me is the line, in both papers,
"sending the bus careering about 100m down the road". 100m is a long
way for a bus to travel apparently not under control.

Robin

Accident in Croydon
 

On Sun, 07 Sep 2008 22:26:26 +0100 someone who may be Graham Murray
wrote this:-

On the other hand, where a tram is running along a road, is there any
need for it to have separate signals? Would it not suffice for it to
have to obey the same red/amber/green traffic lights as other traffic?

Yes, which is why separate signals are provided.

There are many reasons why tram drivers may be given separate
signals, for example if a tram is to start off before other traffic
at a junction a separate signal is needed. The "amber" period for a
tram is a few seconds longer than for motor traffic. It is also
considered less confusing for operators of other forms of traffic.

Having decided to provide separate signals for tram drivers the next
question was what form these signals would take. The two contenders
were tram stencils on coloured lights (just as there are bike (and
possibly bus [1]) stencils in places) or white lights. In essence
the white light system was chosen as there is less chance of
confusion with signals for other forms of traffic.

White light signals could be provided by standard traffic light
units with clear lenses and the appropriate stencil. However, the
"searchlight" unit was chosen as it is smaller than a three light
traffic light unit (being fitted to the top of a pedestrian crossing
pole is a lot neater than having a second traffic light unit beside
the one for other traffic) and can provide a greater variety of
indications.

Given the limitations of operating on the roads I think the system
would be hard to improve on.



[1] I have a very vague recollection of having seen bus stencils
somewhere in the UK. Bike stencils are provided in places though,
unlike some other places, there is no stencil on the red lens.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Accident in Croydon
 

On 8 Sep, 16:35, "Batman55" wrote:
Surely the white lights which show horizontal (stop), vertical (go) and
diagonal (junction) count as signals? The drivers certainly treat them like
signals!

I didn't say it didn't have signals, I said it didn't have a
signalling system. I'm assuming the lights at junctions are
freestanding installations of minimal complexity, and the tram lights
at road junctions are just traffic lights with unusual heads. There's
nothing more elaborate than that, as far as I know.

U

Accident in Croydon
 

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 14:28:56 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be Mizter T
wrote this:-

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. In Croydon, as is the case
elsewhere with other tram systems, the highway traffic control signals
are linked in to the tram's signalling system so as to enable trams to
negotiate a variety of road junctions

The tramway signalling system [1] makes a request to the traffic
light controller. The request informs the traffic light controller
that a tram is approaching or waiting depending on circumstances.
How the traffic light controller responds to this request depends on
the junction and the circumstances at the time. At one extreme it
will respond immediately and change the other lights before giving a
proceed signal to the tram driver. At the other extreme it will note
the tram request and fit it in when a suitable opportunity arises.

The priority of a tram request may be increased if the tram comes to
a stand at the junction. It all depends on the junction and how that
is linked to other (road) junctions.

Many road junctions may be linked and the road bods may not give
trams absolute priority. However, trams are carrying many people in
a small amount of road space and thus can be given a high priority
than other forms of traffic.

[1] generally just detector loops. An advance detector is placed
some way in the rear of the signals. A stop detector is placed at
the stop mark. A cancel detector is placed after the lights, if the
proceed signal has not already been replaced by the white dot then
this detector will initiate this. One detector can perform more than
one function, for example a cancel detector can also function as the
advance detector for signals further along the tramway.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Accident in Croydon
 

On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 12:01:01 +0100, David Hansen wrote:

[1] I have a very vague recollection of having seen bus stencils
somewhere in the UK. Bike stencils are provided in places though, unlike
some other places, there is no stencil on the red lens.

Bus stencils are used in several places in Birmingham.

--
Regards
Alex

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/

Accident in Croydon
 

On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 12:11:07 +0100, Mr Thant wrote
On 8 Sep, 16:35, "Batman55" wrote:
Surely the white lights which show horizontal (stop), vertical (go) and
diagonal (junction) count as signals? The drivers certainly treat them like
signals!

I didn't say it didn't have signals, I said it didn't have a
signalling system. I'm assuming the lights at junctions are
freestanding installations of minimal complexity, and the tram lights
at road junctions are just traffic lights with unusual heads. There's
nothing more elaborate than that, as far as I know.

That's still a signalling system. A 'system' isn't *always* about technology
don't y'know

Accident in Croydon
 

R.C. Payne wrote:

The bit that makes the least sense to me is the line, in both papers,
"sending the bus careering about 100m down the road". 100m is a long
way for a bus to travel apparently not under control.

If you started an ordinary car and put it into low gear before jumping
out of it, how far do you think it would go? (NB I am not advocating
anything other than a thought experiment.)

--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9633014.html
(45 145 at Leicester, 3 Sep 1979)

Accident in Croydon
 

R.C. Payne wrote:
Arthur Figgis wrote:
There was an accident involving a bus, a (reported to be parked) car,
a tram, and possibly a moving car, in George Street, Croydon this
morning. Unfortunately the pedestrian was killed, and the bus driver
injured.

It seems to be a slightly out-of-the-ordinary accident - the tram and
bus have ended up quite a way from each other.

http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/...detail/article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-Croydon.html


(people should avoid the Mail's pictures if they would be offended by
knowing it is tram 2534).

The bit that makes the least sense to me is the line, in both papers,
"sending the bus careering about 100m down the road". 100m is a long
way for a bus to travel apparently not under control.

Robin

A lot of the buses near me do that every day.

--
Tony the Dragon

Accident in Croydon
 

David Hansen wrote:
On Sun, 07 Sep 2008 22:26:26 +0100 someone who may be Graham Murray
wrote this:-

On the other hand, where a tram is running along a road, is there any
need for it to have separate signals? Would it not suffice for it to
have to obey the same red/amber/green traffic lights as other traffic?

Yes, which is why separate signals are provided.

There are many reasons why tram drivers may be given separate
signals, for example if a tram is to start off before other traffic
at a junction a separate signal is needed. The "amber" period for a
tram is a few seconds longer than for motor traffic. It is also
considered less confusing for operators of other forms of traffic.

Having decided to provide separate signals for tram drivers the next
question was what form these signals would take. The two contenders
were tram stencils on coloured lights (just as there are bike (and
possibly bus [1]) stencils in places) or white lights. In essence
the white light system was chosen as there is less chance of
confusion with signals for other forms of traffic.

White light signals could be provided by standard traffic light
units with clear lenses and the appropriate stencil. However, the
"searchlight" unit was chosen as it is smaller than a three light
traffic light unit (being fitted to the top of a pedestrian crossing
pole is a lot neater than having a second traffic light unit beside
the one for other traffic) and can provide a greater variety of
indications.

Given the limitations of operating on the roads I think the system
would be hard to improve on.



[1] I have a very vague recollection of having seen bus stencils
somewhere in the UK. Bike stencils are provided in places though,
unlike some other places, there is no stencil on the red lens.



I seem to remember the last time I was in Amsterdam there were cycle,
bus & tram stencils on traffic lights.

--
Tony the Dragon

Accident in Croydon
 

On 8 Sep, 11:47, "R.C. Payne" wrote:

Arthur Figgis wrote:
There was an accident involving a bus, a (reported to be parked) car, a
tram, and possibly a moving car, in George Street, Croydon this morning..
Unfortunately the pedestrian was killed, and the bus driver injured.

It seems to be a slightly out-of-the-ordinary accident - the tram and
bus have ended up quite a way from each other.

http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/...an-killed-tram.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-horrific-bus...

(people should avoid the Mail's pictures if they would be offended by
knowing it is tram 2534).

The bit that makes the least sense to me is the line, in both papers,
"sending the bus careering about 100m down the road". *100m is a long
way for a bus to travel apparently not under control.


The Croydon Advertiser (aka This Is Croydon Today) story suggested
that the bus driver may have been knocked unconscious after colliding
with the tram, which would go towards explaining the distance the bus
travelled whilst out of control.

Accident in Croydon
 

The media are reporting that the driver of the bus has been arrested.

Accident in Croydon
 

"Chris" wrote in message
...
The media are reporting that the driver of the bus has been arrested.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7603444.stm

It is also reported that the fatality was a bus passenger, and not a
pedestrian as initial information suggested.

Peter

Accident in Croydon
 

R.C. Payne wrote:
Arthur Figgis wrote:
There was an accident involving a bus, a (reported to be parked) car,
a tram, and possibly a moving car, in George Street, Croydon this
morning. Unfortunately the pedestrian was killed, and the bus driver
injured.

It seems to be a slightly out-of-the-ordinary accident - the tram and
bus have ended up quite a way from each other.

http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/...detail/article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-Croydon.html


(people should avoid the Mail's pictures if they would be offended by
knowing it is tram 2534).

The bit that makes the least sense to me is the line, in both papers,
"sending the bus careering about 100m down the road". 100m is a long
way for a bus to travel apparently not under control.

Obviously I haven't measured it, but it is of that order.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Accident in Croydon
 

On 8 Sep, 18:54, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Chris" wrote in message

...

The media are reporting that the driver of the bus has been arrested.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7603444.stm

It is also reported that the fatality was a bus passenger, and not a
pedestrian as initial information suggested.

Peter

I thought initial reports mentioned 'blood everywhere'?.....only
inside the bus then, and likely not even there.

Accident in Croydon
 

Chris gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

It is also reported that the fatality was a bus passenger, and not a
pedestrian as initial information suggested.

I thought initial reports mentioned 'blood everywhere'?.....only inside
the bus then, and likely not even there.

Depends how he left the bus. The doesn't appear to be much of the upper
front window remaining.

Accident in Croydon
 

Chris wrote:
On 8 Sep, 18:54, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Chris" wrote in message

...

The media are reporting that the driver of the bus has been arrested.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7603444.stm

It is also reported that the fatality was a bus passenger, and not a
pedestrian as initial information suggested.

Peter

I thought initial reports mentioned 'blood everywhere'?.....only
inside the bus then, and likely not even there.

The reports I have read suggest the passenger had been upstairs, and was
ejected from the bus during (part of) the accident. This would make
sense of the confusion as to whether he had been a passenger or a
pedestrian.

Robin

Accident in Croydon
 

[1] I have a very vague recollection of having seen bus stencils
somewhere in the UK. Bike stencils are provided in places though,
unlike some other places, there is no stencil on the red lens.

Birmingham, at the junction of Longmore Street and Belgrave Middleway.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...2,0.01001&z=17

Buses and Bikes can go straight on from Longmore Street into Horton
Square, cars can only go left. There's both a bus stencil and a bike
stencil, and bizarrely they have separate lanes.

The layout is hideous, as the dedicated bike lane to cross the
Middleway heading north is in the middle of the road and the bike lane
runs along a widened pavement to the west (where you'd expect it) and
then crosses into the middle of Longmore Street unprotected (where you
sort of expect it). But coming from Horton Square you end up again in
in the centre of the road and are expected to move right, into the bi-
directional bike lane, unprotected. So you have massive traffic light
protection for a move across Belgrave Middleway, but fifteen yards the
other side you have to make a weird, unprotected move which drivers
won't be expecting: from the perspective of a driver heading north,
they'll confront oncoming bikes heading south in the middle of the
road crossing to the western side of the road.

This is part of National Cycle Route 5, and is the recommended route
to cycle from the South West of the city into Birmingham (along Gooch
Street) and is also a useful route towards the Grand Union at Camp
Hill locks (cycling on belgrave Middleway is hard work when you can
cut diagonally across). I just get in the bus lane and behave like a
bus...

ian

Accident in Croydon
 

On Tue, 9 Sep 2008, wrote:

[1] I have a very vague recollection of having seen bus stencils
somewhere in the UK. Bike stencils are provided in places though,
unlike some other places, there is no stencil on the red lens.

Birmingham, at the junction of Longmore Street and Belgrave Middleway.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...2,0.01001&z=17

Buses and Bikes can go straight on from Longmore Street into Horton
Square, cars can only go left. There's both a bus stencil and a bike
stencil, and bizarrely they have separate lanes.

The layout is hideous, as the dedicated bike lane to cross the Middleway
heading north is in the middle of the road and the bike lane runs along
a widened pavement to the west (where you'd expect it) and then crosses
into the middle of Longmore Street unprotected (where you sort of expect
it). But coming from Horton Square you end up again in in the centre of
the road and are expected to move right, into the bi- directional bike
lane, unprotected. So you have massive traffic light protection for a
move across Belgrave Middleway, but fifteen yards the other side you
have to make a weird, unprotected move which drivers won't be expecting:
from the perspective of a driver heading north, they'll confront
oncoming bikes heading south in the middle of the road crossing to the
western side of the road.

Yes, that's a classic bit of cycle lane dickery. That point should at the
very least be protected by an island rather than some crosshatching, and
should really have some lights on it too.

I note that there's a primary school to the east, with access from that
road. Would this not be an ideal place for a pedestrian crossing, with
which the cycle lane crossover could be integrated?

Really, though, the solution is just not to build cycle lanes. Copious
research shows that in situations like this - indeed, in almost all urban
situations - they cause more accidents than they prevent.

Anyway, some more dickery in return - i've been meaning to post this photo
for ages, and you've prompted me to do so:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/twic/2844493252/

It's about he

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51.52544%2C-0.126214

This is part of National Cycle Route 5, and is the recommended route to
cycle from the South West of the city into Birmingham (along Gooch
Street) and is also a useful route towards the Grand Union at Camp Hill
locks (cycling on belgrave Middleway is hard work when you can cut
diagonally across). I just get in the bus lane and behave like a bus...

This is also my strategy. I'm getting very good at brrrmming noises.

tom

--
Baby got a masterplan. A foolproof masterplan.

Accident in Croydon
 

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as
gently breathed:

I just get in the bus lane and behave like a
bus...

At least you can drop to the racing position for low bridges. Possibly
that's what the next generation of double-deckers needs? :-)

--
- DJ Pyromancer, Black Sheep, Leeds. http://www.sheepish.net
- http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk http://www.revival.stormshadow.com

Accident in Croydon
 

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Tom
Anderson gently breathed:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/twic/2844493252/

You should send that to the Warrington Cycle Campaign for their
"Facility Of The Month" page - top work!

--
- DJ Pyromancer, Black Sheep, Leeds. http://www.sheepish.net
- http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk http://www.revival.stormshadow.com

Accident in Croydon
 

On Sep 10, 12:29*am, Tom Anderson wrote:

diagonally across). *I just get in the bus lane and behave like a bus....

This is also my strategy. I'm getting very good at brrrmming noises.

I can ride fast enough, and more to the point accelerate rapidly
enough, that I can outperform buses in urban settings. But then I
don't need the bike lanes in the first place --- fit, alert, knows
what cars do by virtue of having driven them for twenty-five years,
plus the added je ne said quoi have having a few years' motorbike
experience too. My kids, however, don't have many of those
attributes, and things like National Cycle Routes _should_ be aimed at
them: if not for children / the nervous / the inexperienced, what's
the point of traffic engineering the roads in city centres?

ian

Accident in Croydon
 

In article ,
(Pyromancer) wrote:

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Tom
Anderson gently breathed:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/twic/2844493252/

You should send that to the Warrington Cycle Campaign for their
"Facility Of The Month" page - top work!

I use the segregated cycle lane sections to the west of that location
between the Bedford Way/Tavistock Sq junction and Marchmont St on my way
from Westminster to King's Cross station.

I don't use the section between Marchmont St and Judd St illustrated and
have never seen this nonsense. I can't for the life of me think why that
crossover isn't arranged at the lights on the Judd St junction but then
they wouldn't have the anti-cyclist lights arrangement at the Marchmont
St junction if they were that sensible.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Accident in Croydon
 

In article ,
Tom Anderson wrote:

Anyway, some more dickery in return - i've been meaning to post this photo
for ages, and you've prompted me to do so:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/twic/2844493252/

You do know about this, don't you? You should submit your photo.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.me...month/index.ht
m

Sam