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Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Sunday morning, about 08.00,I was on a 21 to Lewisham at London
Bridge/Monument. A passenger boarded and tried to pay with a twenty pound note. The driver had no change and nor did other passengers. The passenger was made to get off the bus. I was horrified and complained, this morning, at 0845 300 7000. The stop is not "Pay before you board". It seems the operator should have issued a pay later chit. I have never seen this happen before; it would not have affected me as I use an auto-topped Oyster. -- Walter Briscoe |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
Walter Briscoe wrote:
On Sunday morning, about 08.00,I was on a 21 to Lewisham at London Bridge/Monument. A passenger boarded and tried to pay with a twenty pound note. The driver had no change and nor did other passengers. The passenger was made to get off the bus. I was horrified and complained, this morning, at 0845 300 7000. The stop is not "Pay before you board". It seems the operator should have issued a pay later chit. I have never seen this happen before; it would not have affected me as I use an auto-topped Oyster. My father was an LT driver back in the 70s and 80s and they were told that they were under no obligation to give change at all although they should always try to do so. Roy |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:21:10 +0100, Roy Stilling
wrote: Walter Briscoe wrote: On Sunday morning, about 08.00,I was on a 21 to Lewisham at London Bridge/Monument. A passenger boarded and tried to pay with a twenty pound note. The driver had no change and nor did other passengers. The passenger was made to get off the bus. I was horrified and complained, this morning, at 0845 300 7000. The stop is not "Pay before you board". It seems the operator should have issued a pay later chit. I have never seen this happen before; it would not have affected me as I use an auto-topped Oyster. My father was an LT driver back in the 70s and 80s and they were told that they were under no obligation to give change at all although they should always try to do so. I was a bus driver in the 70s. We were not issued with a float; I assume this is still the case. Many drivers kept a small float of their own (I did, but only about a pounds' worth) but others didn't and were under no obligation to do so. As you say, the assumption has always been that the right money would be given, and change given when possible but not guaranteed. If you couldn't give change, the procedure was that you should take what was tendered and issue an Unrefunded Change form. The passenger could collect their change from the bus garage after you had paid in. It was amazing how many people, thinking the ploy would get them a free ride, would then suddenly find the right money rather than have to visit Dunton Green. In the odd case where it was obviously genuine, I did my best to find the change before the passenger alighted, but occasionally a visit to the garage was needed. However, nobody would ever be refused travel for not having the right money - after all, if they didn't collect it, the company kept it! We weren't even allowed to refuse travel to somebody who had *no* money. We would take the passenger's name and address, complete an Uncollected Fare form and let the company deal with it. Incidentally, as a kid in the 1950s this was once a lifesaver. I lost my Rover ticket and had to rely on Unpaid Fare forms to get me home. -- Bill Hayles http://billnot.com |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
In message of Mon, 15 Sep
2008 10:34:35 in uk.transport.london, Bill Hayles writes On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:21:10 +0100, Roy Stilling wrote: Walter Briscoe wrote: On Sunday morning, about 08.00,I was on a 21 to Lewisham at London Bridge/Monument. A passenger boarded and tried to pay with a twenty pound note. The driver had no change and nor did other passengers. The passenger was made to get off the bus. I was horrified and complained, this morning, at 0845 300 7000. The stop is not "Pay before you board". It seems the operator should have issued a pay later chit. I have never seen this happen before; it would not have affected me as I use an auto-topped Oyster. My father was an LT driver back in the 70s and 80s and they were told that they were under no obligation to give change at all although they should always try to do so. I was a bus driver in the 70s. We were not issued with a float; I assume this is still the case. Many drivers kept a small float of their own (I did, but only about a pounds' worth) but others didn't and were under no obligation to do so. As you say, the assumption has always been that the right money would be given, and change given when possible but not guaranteed. If you couldn't give change, the procedure was that you should take what was tendered and issue an Unrefunded Change form. The passenger could collect their change from the bus garage after you had paid in. It was amazing how many people, thinking the ploy would get them a free ride, would then suddenly find the right money rather than have to visit Dunton Green. In the odd case where it was obviously genuine, I did my best to find the change before the passenger alighted, but occasionally a visit to the garage was needed. However, nobody would ever be refused travel for not having the right money - after all, if they didn't collect it, the company kept it! We weren't even allowed to refuse travel to somebody who had *no* money. We would take the passenger's name and address, complete an Uncollected Fare form and let the company deal with it. Incidentally, as a kid in the 1950s this was once a lifesaver. I lost my Rover ticket and had to rely on Unpaid Fare forms to get me home. Thanks for both replies. My understanding is enhanced. When a child, I used to offer a shilling for a three halfpenny fare. It was amazing how often that gave me free travel. ;) -- Walter Briscoe |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Sep 15, 10:18 am, Walter Briscoe
wrote: On Sunday morning, about 08.00,I was on a 21 to Lewisham at London Bridge/Monument. A passenger boarded and tried to pay with a twenty pound note. The driver had no change and nor did other passengers. The passenger was made to get off the bus. I was horrified and complained, this morning, at 0845 300 7000. The stop is not "Pay before you board". It seems the operator should have issued a pay later chit. If they did that it would be a scam that would be soon abused. Perhaps the passenger should have had some common sense and changed the note in a shop beforehand anyway. B2003 |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 06:24:51 -0700 (PDT), Boltar
wrote: If they did that it would be a scam that would be soon abused. Perhaps the passenger should have had some common sense and changed the note in a shop beforehand anyway. Given that a bus is a mobile shop selling transport, I have never quite understood why bus companies think it is the role of shops to give change for them. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Simon wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 06:24:51 -0700 (PDT), Boltar wrote: On Sep 15, 10:18 am, Walter Briscoe wrote: On Sunday morning, about 08.00,I was on a 21 to Lewisham at London Bridge/Monument. A passenger boarded and tried to pay with a twenty pound note. The driver had no change and nor did other passengers. The passenger was made to get off the bus. I was horrified and complained, this morning, at 0845 300 7000. The stop is not "Pay before you board". It seems the operator should have issued a pay later chit. If they did that it would be a scam that would be soon abused. Perhaps the passenger should have had some common sense and changed the note in a shop beforehand anyway. Shopkeepers are the bus companies bankers? They are paid by the bus company for this service? The shop is open even if it exists? Perhaps the bus company should give the drivers a reasonable float, after all they do trust them with cash. I agree that passengers should try to have the correct money but sometimes plans fail. This is, to my mind, a major hole in the payment arrangements for the buses, and i believe i've ranted about this before. The problem is that cash comes in doses of 10 or 20 pounds, as notes. You cannot get money from a cash machine in any smaller quantity. Bus drivers may refuse these, and you certainly can't use them in the little ticket machines at stops. Thus, if you're not near an open shop, whether because you're somewhere remote or it's late, you're a bit stuffed. You're even stuffed if you have an oyster but no credit, because there's no way to add credit to an oyster card outside station opening times. I've been in a pickle trying to get home late at night on more than one occasion due to this. tom -- Operate all mechanisms! |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
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Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Sep 15, 3:02 pm, Simon wrote:
Shopkeepers are the bus companies bankers? They are paid by the bus company for this service? The shop is open even if it exists? Perhaps the bus company should give the drivers a reasonable float, after all they do trust them with cash. I'm not saying buses should never give change but expecting a driver to have enough change for 20 quid is perhaps optimistic. besides which , its bloody annoying for the other passengers waiting trying to board if the driver has to root around for loads of shrapnel because some wally wants to pay with a large denomination note. If you think I'm being unreasonable then go into a corner shop and see the reaction you get if you try and buy a mars bar with a 50 quid note. B2003 |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Sep 15, 7:52 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
This is, to my mind, a major hole in the payment arrangements for the buses, and i believe i've ranted about this before. The problem is that cash comes in doses of 10 or 20 pounds, as notes. You cannot get money from a cash machine in any smaller quantity. Bus drivers may refuse these, and you certainly can't use them in the little ticket machines at stops. Thus, if you're not near an open shop, whether because you're somewhere remote or it's late, you're a bit stuffed. If someone has a high value note and no change (though to be honest how many people knowing they're going to catch a bus later wouldn't make sure they had some pound coins on them?) and the bus driver has no change he should have the option to issue tickets for however many journeys the note would pay for. The passenger can then either hand over the whole note or get off and walk. B2003 |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Sep 16, 1:41*am, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article , (Tom Anderson) wrote: The problem is that cash comes in doses of 10 or 20 pounds, as notes. You cannot get money from a cash machine in any smaller quantity. Er, I regularly get cash in £5 notes from a cash machine (in Cambridge).. There's one in Russell Square that gives fivers as well. It's been suggested that it has something to do with proximity to students, but if so it's not consistent. |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
Boltar wrote:
If you think I'm being unreasonable then go into a corner shop and see the reaction you get if you try and buy a mars bar with a 50 quid note. Isn't there an actual law that allows retailers the ability to refuse payment if offered in too high a denomination? |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
Tom Anderson wrote:
This is, to my mind, a major hole in the payment arrangements for the buses, and i believe i've ranted about this before. The problem is that cash comes in doses of 10 or 20 pounds, as notes. You cannot get money from a cash machine in any smaller quantity. Even today I still sometimes get £5 notes out of some HSBC branch machines. It's not consistent though. |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Sep 16, 12:50*pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote: Boltar wrote: If you think I'm being unreasonable then go into a corner shop and see the reaction you get if you try and buy a mars bar with a 50 quid note. Isn't there an actual law that allows retailers the ability to refuse payment if offered in too high a denomination? I thought it was the other way round, eg paying £150 in 2p coins. |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
In message , at 12:50:18 on Tue, 16
Sep 2008, Tim Roll-Pickering remarked: If you think I'm being unreasonable then go into a corner shop and see the reaction you get if you try and buy a mars bar with a 50 quid note. Isn't there an actual law that allows retailers the ability to refuse payment if offered in too high a denomination? They don't have to give change, and most of the time can refuse to do the transaction if sensible payment isn't offered. It gets a bit blurred in the public imagination when the retailer is a "public service" (sic). -- Roland Perry |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
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Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
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Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
In article , a@b (Martin
Underwood) wrote: Most (all?) NatWest cashpoints allow you to withdraw cash in multiples of £10 and this is dispensed as £10 notes - and for larger sums, often in £20 notes with just the remaining £10 (if any) as a £10 note. I've not seen a cashpoint dispense £5 notes for many many years. You just haven't looked at the right ones, though the one I know is a Lloyds TSB machine. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008, Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article , (Tom Anderson) wrote: The problem is that cash comes in doses of 10 or 20 pounds, as notes. You cannot get money from a cash machine in any smaller quantity. Er, I regularly get cash in £5 notes from a cash machine (in Cambridge). Right, so that's one. Out of about 65 000. And it's in Cambridge. And you still can't put fivers in a ticket machine! Yes, there are fiver-dispensing cash machines, but sadly, very few - the only one in Oxford i was aware of switched over to 10+20 a couple of years ago. Here's a nice story about the origin of cash machines, and the extensive research that went into setting PINs at four digits: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6230194.stm tom -- Any problem in computer science can be solved with another layer of indirection. -- David Wheeler |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008, Boltar wrote:
On Sep 15, 7:52 pm, Tom Anderson wrote: This is, to my mind, a major hole in the payment arrangements for the buses, and i believe i've ranted about this before. The problem is that cash comes in doses of 10 or 20 pounds, as notes. You cannot get money from a cash machine in any smaller quantity. Bus drivers may refuse these, and you certainly can't use them in the little ticket machines at stops. Thus, if you're not near an open shop, whether because you're somewhere remote or it's late, you're a bit stuffed. If someone has a high value note and no change (though to be honest how many people knowing they're going to catch a bus later wouldn't make sure they had some pound coins on them?) and the bus driver has no change he should have the option to issue tickets for however many journeys the note would pay for. The passenger can then either hand over the whole note or get off and walk. That sounds like a very good idea. In fact, an ex-driver said upthread that that's exactly what they used to do, more or less - give you a chit you could take to a bus depot and cash in. It doesn't address the problem with recharging your oyster at night, though. I would have thought that could be done fairly simply by having some oyster machines - which could be of the card-only type - on the outside of tube stations, and so accessible outside opening hours. There really also need to be card-operated oyster vending machines at all major points of arrival into London, including Victoria Coach Station. I was catching a night bus from Victoria in the wee small hours a few weeks ago, and had to explain to some hapless Spanish tourists who'd just got off a coach that yes, they really were going to have to go and find some kind of shop that was open to get change, and then spend four pounds each on two singles to take them and their luggage about a mile to their hotel. That's bull**** behaviour on TfL's part - if you're going to apply punitive pricing to paper tickets, you also have to make it easy to get electronic ones. tom -- Any problem in computer science can be solved with another layer of indirection. -- David Wheeler |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008, MIG wrote:
On Sep 16, 1:41*am, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote: In article , (Tom Anderson) wrote: The problem is that cash comes in doses of 10 or 20 pounds, as notes. You cannot get money from a cash machine in any smaller quantity. Er, I regularly get cash in £5 notes from a cash machine (in Cambridge). There's one in Russell Square that gives fivers as well. It's been suggested that it has something to do with proximity to students, but if so it's not consistent. Is that the Travelex one, near the post office? Could it be because it's a funky non-bank machine? tom -- Any problem in computer science can be solved with another layer of indirection. -- David Wheeler |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Boltar wrote: If you think I'm being unreasonable then go into a corner shop and see the reaction you get if you try and buy a mars bar with a 50 quid note. Isn't there an actual law that allows retailers the ability to refuse payment if offered in too high a denomination? I think it's more the case that there's no law that compels anyone to accept any particular form of payment. There is the idea of 'legal tender', but i understand that actually only refers to settling debts in a court - and you don't get any change: http://www.royalmint.gov.uk/Corporat...uidelines.aspx tom -- Any problem in computer science can be solved with another layer of indirection. -- David Wheeler |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
MIG wrote "Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote: Boltar wrote: being unreasonable then go into a corner shop and see the reaction you get if you try and buy a mars bar with a 50 quid note. Isn't there an actual law that allows retailers the ability to refuse payment if offered in too high a denomination? I thought it was the other way round, eg paying £150 in 2p coins. That's is indeed the law http://www.tclayton.demon.co.uk/dec.html 1 and 2 GBP coins are legal tender to any amount. 20p and 50p coins are legal tender up to a total value of 10 pounds. 5p and 10p coins are legal tender up to a total value of 5 pounds. 1p and 2p coins are legal tender up to a total of 20 pence. Mind you, legal tender is an odder concept than you might think. No one has to accept pounds unless there is a pre-existing debt (so restaurants but not ordinary stores) and no one is legally obliged to give change. http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/bankn...egaltender.htm Cotton, William (1786-1866) Title Everybody's Guide to Money Matters: ( http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/1903 ) "No one, however, can be compelled to give change; that is to say, if you owe a person £4 15s., you are bound in strict law to pay him that exact sum." -- Mike D |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
Tom Anderson wrote On Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Simon wrote: On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 06:24:51 -0700 (PDT), Boltar wrote: On Sep 15, 10:18 am, Walter Briscoe wrote: On Sunday morning, about 08.00,I was on a 21 to Lewisham at London Bridge/Monument. A passenger boarded and tried to pay with a twenty pound note. The driver had no change and nor did other passengers. The passenger was made to get off the bus. I was horrified and complained, this morning, at 0845 300 7000. The stop is not "Pay before you board". It seems the operator should have issued a pay later chit. company for this service? The shop is open even if it exists? Perhaps the bus company should give the drivers a reasonable float, after all they do trust them with cash. There still has to be a backup scheme for when the float runs out. I recall it was mentioned on this NG that ? BAA had to cause representations to be made to the Chinese official travel agency because they were giving their customers only £50 notes. And debit card Cashback has made shops part of the UK money transmission system. I got 10x£1 coins from Sainsburys prior to a visit to a laundrette I agree that passengers should try to have the correct money but sometimes plans fail. This is, to my mind, a major hole in the payment arrangements for the buses, and i believe i've ranted about this before. The problem is that Perhaps the "pay later chit" should be required to be issued only if a one day bus pass is bought so the customer can collect their change at no further cost. You're even stuffed if you have an oyster but no credit, because there's no way to add credit to an oyster card outside station opening times. I've been in a pickle trying to get home late at night on more than one occasion due to this. Auto top-up and top-up at a Oyster Ticket stop are also available "outside station opening times" -- Mike D |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Sep 16, 4:52*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008, MIG wrote: On Sep 16, 1:41*am, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote: In article , (Tom Anderson) wrote: The problem is that cash comes in doses of 10 or 20 pounds, as notes. You cannot get money from a cash machine in any smaller quantity. Er, I regularly get cash in £5 notes from a cash machine (in Cambridge). There's one in Russell Square that gives fivers as well. *It's been suggested that it has something to do with proximity to students, but if so it's not consistent. Is that the Travelex one, near the post office? Could it be because it's a funky non-bank machine? No, it's the Barclays one on the Hotel Russell side that I'm thinking of. |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Sep 16, 5:23*pm, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote On Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Simon wrote: On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 06:24:51 -0700 (PDT), Boltar wrote: On Sep 15, 10:18 am, Walter Briscoe wrote: On Sunday morning, about 08.00,I was on a 21 to Lewisham at London Bridge/Monument. A passenger boarded and tried to pay with a twenty pound note. The driver had no change and nor did other passengers. The passenger was made to get off the bus. I was horrified and complained, this morning, at 0845 300 7000. The stop is not "Pay before you board". It seems the operator should have issued a pay later chit. company for this service? *The shop is open even if it exists? Perhaps the bus company should give the drivers a reasonable float, after all they do trust them with cash. There still has to be a backup scheme for when the float runs out. I recall it was mentioned on this NG that ? BAA had to cause representations to be made to the Chinese official travel agency because they were giving their customers only £50 notes. And debit card Cashback has made shops part of the UK money transmission system. I got 10x£1 coins from Sainsburys prior to a visit to a laundrette I agree that passengers should try to have the correct money but sometimes plans fail. This is, to my mind, a major hole in the payment arrangements for the buses, and i believe i've ranted about this before. The problem is that Perhaps the "pay later chit" should be required to be issued only if a one day bus pass is bought so the customer can collect their change at no further cost. You're even stuffed if you have an oyster but no credit, because there's no way to add credit to an oyster card outside station opening times. I've been in a pickle trying to get home late at night on more than one occasion due to this. Auto top-up and top-up at a Oyster Ticket stop are also available "outside station opening times" Not very likely. I've never seen one. Not many night clubs are Oyster Ticket Stops. |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
In message , at 16:09:06 on Tue,
16 Sep 2008, Martin Underwood remarked: I very very rarely pay for anything by cash these days, so maintaining a supply of change for parking etc is a major problem. Or even a £1 coin for supermarket trollies. I've solved that one now by having a Brazilian coin in the car that's almost exactly the same size as a £1, so releases a shopping trolley. It's worth about 20p I think. No fraud, because you get back the coin you put in. Interesting how a device like "£1 deposits" completely changes the shopping paradigm. It used to be the case that there was a "pool" of spare trollies at the far end of the checkouts, so you could unload from one onto the belt, while a companion loaded up another as the items were checked out. Now they can't start the till running until you've unloaded the whole lot and have an empty trolley to use (bar a small buffer zone of a couple of bags-worth). As a result I now rarely buy more that a 3/4 full trolley, as that's all you can get on most belts. -- Roland Perry |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 02:18:07 -0700 (PDT), Boltar
wrote: I'm not saying buses should never give change but expecting a driver to have enough change for 20 quid is perhaps optimistic. besides which , its bloody annoying for the other passengers waiting trying to board if the driver has to root around for loads of shrapnel because some wally wants to pay with a large denomination note. It takes precisely one item of currency to change a 20 quid note over and above a tenner, or precisely two over and above a fiver. If you think I'm being unreasonable then go into a corner shop and see the reaction you get if you try and buy a mars bar with a 50 quid note. But I would be surprised to find gbp20 not accepted. And a Mars bar costs less than a third of the price of a London cash bus fare. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 02:20:39 -0700 (PDT), Boltar
wrote: If someone has a high value note and no change (though to be honest how many people knowing they're going to catch a bus later wouldn't make sure they had some pound coins on them?) and the bus driver has no change he should have the option to issue tickets for however many journeys the note would pay for. The passenger can then either hand over the whole note or get off and walk. That would make sense. Or allow Oyster top-up on bus. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
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Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 12:50:18 +0100, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote: Isn't there an actual law that allows retailers the ability to refuse payment if offered in too high a denomination? A retailer can refuse to accept any form of payment, as a debt doesn't normally exist to pay off. As can a bus driver. The difference is that the former are in my experience a lot more reasonable over changing notes than the latter. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008, MIG wrote:
On Sep 16, 4:52*pm, Tom Anderson wrote: On Tue, 16 Sep 2008, MIG wrote: On Sep 16, 1:41*am, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote: In article , (Tom Anderson) wrote: The problem is that cash comes in doses of 10 or 20 pounds, as notes. You cannot get money from a cash machine in any smaller quantity. Er, I regularly get cash in £5 notes from a cash machine (in Cambridge). There's one in Russell Square that gives fivers as well. *It's been suggested that it has something to do with proximity to students, but if so it's not consistent. Is that the Travelex one, near the post office? Could it be because it's a funky non-bank machine? No, it's the Barclays one on the Hotel Russell side that I'm thinking of. Hmm. I'd love to know how they make decisions like that! Maybe i'll write to them ... tom -- Any problem in computer science can be solved with another layer of indirection. -- David Wheeler |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
Tom Anderson wrote:
It doesn't address the problem with recharging your oyster at night, though. I would have thought that could be done fairly simply by having some oyster machines - which could be of the card-only type - on the outside of tube stations, and so accessible outside opening hours. Great for the tube areas but what about those parts of London where the tube is not within walking distance? Virtually all the shops that charge Oysters that I know of close at least two hours before the tube does. |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Sep 16, 8:28*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008, MIG wrote: On Sep 16, 4:52*pm, Tom Anderson wrote: On Tue, 16 Sep 2008, MIG wrote: On Sep 16, 1:41*am, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote: In article , (Tom Anderson) wrote: The problem is that cash comes in doses of 10 or 20 pounds, as notes. You cannot get money from a cash machine in any smaller quantity. Er, I regularly get cash in £5 notes from a cash machine (in Cambridge). There's one in Russell Square that gives fivers as well. *It's been suggested that it has something to do with proximity to students, but if so it's not consistent. Is that the Travelex one, near the post office? Could it be because it's a funky non-bank machine? No, it's the Barclays one on the Hotel Russell side that I'm thinking of. Hmm. I'd love to know how they make decisions like that! Maybe i'll write to them ... Yeah, but don't make them stop. Maybe they've just forgotten to change it for fifteen years and you'll spoil it for everyone ... |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 02:20:39AM -0700, Boltar wrote:
(though to be honest how many people knowing they're going to catch a bus later wouldn't make sure they had some pound coins on them?) I wouldn't. It's just not something I'd think about because every other place in the entire country* that sells things takes notes. And what about people who *don't* know that they're going to catch a bus later? and the bus driver has no change he should have the option to issue tickets for however many journeys the note would pay for. The passenger can then either hand over the whole note or get off and walk. The driver should have the option to give the passenger a receipt for the whole amount so he can get his change on another bus, or at a "ticket stop", or at a station (ANY station in London, not just Underground stations). * I'll just take it as read that some annoying **** of a pedant is going to point out a shop in some ghastly rural ****-hole whose owner thinks that twenties are a commie paedo plot. I don't care. -- David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire There are many different types of sausages. The best are from the north of England. The wurst are from Germany. -- seen in alt.2eggs... |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 02:18:07AM -0700, Boltar wrote:
I'm not saying buses should never give change but expecting a driver to have enough change for 20 quid is perhaps optimistic. besides which , its bloody annoying for the other passengers waiting trying to board if the driver has to root around for loads of shrapnel because some wally wants to pay with a large denomination note. If you think I'm being unreasonable then go into a corner shop and see the reaction you get if you try and buy a mars bar with a 50 quid note. I quite often pay for my cup morning cup of tea with a twenty. That cuppa costs less than a bus ticket. What's the problem? Now, if the bus ticket cost something like 63p, or GBP1.63 then I could understand that it's a bit annoying cos the driver would need to find several coins of different denominations. But he doesn't. Bus tickets are an integer number of pounds. Therefore he needs one denomination. No rooting around for loads of shrapnel required. -- David Cantrell | top google result for "internet beard fetish club" 23.5 degrees of axial tilt is the reason for the season |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote: It doesn't address the problem with recharging your oyster at night, though. I would have thought that could be done fairly simply by having some oyster machines - which could be of the card-only type - on the outside of tube stations, and so accessible outside opening hours. Great for the tube areas but what about those parts of London where the tube is not within walking distance? Virtually all the shops that charge Oysters that I know of close at least two hours before the tube does. True. The situation i was primarily thinking of is trying to get home after a night out, where generally, i'm in the middle of town where there are lots of tube stations. I would imagine this pattern accounts for the majority of post-closing-time bus use, although of course not all. I'm stumped as to how you could deal with the problem in the situation you describe, though. Night buses don't take cash, so no solution involving a chit is going to work. Putting chip-and-pin on buses seems like a non-starter. I think that means you have to put fixed machines around the place, taking either notes or cards, and dispensing either a fistful of tickets (or a ticket and a chit) or oyster charge. Basically, the same as the machines i want to put outside tube stations. You couldn't put those at every bus stop, or even as many bus stops as have ticket-for-coin machines, as they'd be too expensive (i assume). You could probably put them at railway stations and key bus nodes (places like Clapton Pond, say). Would that do? One day, we might see oyster chargers as part of every cash machine. That might largely solve the problem. How about a mobile phone scheme? You text a special number, it charges you two quid or whatever (as mobile phones sometimes do, i don't know how) and sends you a code. The driver taps the code into a special gizmo on the bus, checks to see if it flashes a green light saying the code valid, and then prints you a ticket. The special gizmo could work in one of two ways. Either it's in touch with a central server, in which case it just calls in and checks your code, with the server then crossing the code of its list of valid codes, or else it's standalone, in which case it can verify the code using some cryptography. The problem is then preventing replay attacks, where someone uses the same code more than once. You could perhaps do this with a combination of time and space - codes could be valid for 15 minutes after issuing, with the time being embedded in the code, and only valid in the area from where the message was sent. You could detect unused codes at end-of-day data reconciliation, and refund the buyer, so people whose codes expired before they could use them wouldn't be punished. To speed things up, the code could be in the form of an image, ie a 2D barcode [1], which could then be read by a cheap little webcam sat next to the driver. tom [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcode#2D_barcodes -- On Question Time last night, Tony Benn was saying that the way to solve the low turnout at elections was to make voting compulsory. I think the solution is for someone to start a political party that doesn't contain wall-to-wall *******s. -- John Rowland |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On 18 Sep, 14:46, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote: Tom Anderson wrote: It doesn't address the problem with recharging your oyster at night, though. I would have thought that could be done fairly simply by having some oyster machines - which could be of the card-only type - on the outside of tube stations, and so accessible outside opening hours. Great for the tube areas but what about those parts of London where the tube is not within walking distance? Virtually all the shops that charge Oysters that I know of close at least two hours before the tube does. True. The situation i was primarily thinking of is trying to get home after a night out, where generally, i'm in the middle of town where there are lots of tube stations. I would imagine this pattern accounts for the majority of post-closing-time bus use, although of course not all. I'm stumped as to how you could deal with the problem in the situation you describe, though. Night buses don't take cash, so no solution involving a chit is going to work. Putting chip-and-pin on buses seems like a non-starter. I think that means you have to put fixed machines around the As part of the upgrade process for Oystercard readers to accept ITSO cards, the readers will be upgraded to accept Visa Wave and Mastercard Paypass cards. https://www.swiftcommunity.net/blogs...ail.cfm?id=448 |
Changeless bus passenger denied boarding
On Thu, 18 Sep 2008, Matthew Dickinson wrote:
On 18 Sep, 14:46, Tom Anderson wrote: On Tue, 16 Sep 2008, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote: Tom Anderson wrote: It doesn't address the problem with recharging your oyster at night, though. I would have thought that could be done fairly simply by having some oyster machines - which could be of the card-only type - on the outside of tube stations, and so accessible outside opening hours. Great for the tube areas but what about those parts of London where the tube is not within walking distance? Virtually all the shops that charge Oysters that I know of close at least two hours before the tube does. True. The situation i was primarily thinking of is trying to get home after a night out, where generally, i'm in the middle of town where there are lots of tube stations. I would imagine this pattern accounts for the majority of post-closing-time bus use, although of course not all. I'm stumped as to how you could deal with the problem in the situation you describe, though. Night buses don't take cash, so no solution involving a chit is going to work. Putting chip-and-pin on buses seems like a non-starter. I think that means you have to put fixed machines around the As part of the upgrade process for Oystercard readers to accept ITSO cards, the readers will be upgraded to accept Visa Wave and Mastercard Paypass cards. https://www.swiftcommunity.net/blogs...ail.cfm?id=448 Cool! tom -- got EXPERTISE in BADASS BRAIN FREEZE |
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