On 19 Sep, 09:46, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 18 Sep, 22:07, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

Well, if TPTB were so inclined, a (relatively) simple bridged curve
could connect the GEML slows to the Goblin:http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ie=...=51.550665,0.0...
...I think there's ample room.

GEML freight runs on the fasts, on the north side.

Just out of interest, what sort of "other current" traffic does the
NLL have, other than passengers, GEML freight, and Tilbury freight
(which I'm guessing includes all chunnel traffic)? I can't think of
anything else.

The connections at the other end are more important - the Goblin has
no equivalent to Canonbury tunnel, meaning southbound ECML trains
can't get onto it eaily. Plus anything electric. Plus various
occasional traffic like diverted sleepers heading for the ECML.

U

There appears to be a eastwards single track link between Harringay
and the Goblin:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl...08583&t=h&z=18

....though there's no easy way for southbound trains to use it to go
east without reversing, if that's what you meant.

The electrics issue should have been sorted out by now, and I think
it'll happen once a few hands are eventually forcing into writing some
cheques, and the diverted sleepers must surely fall into the somewhat
rare category. Though I've got nothing to back that assertion up.

If TPTB felt so inclined, I guess they could link to the MML at West
Hampstead or ideally, near the Goblin's link:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?f=q...,0.013089&z=17

On Fri, 19 Sep 2008, Jamie Thompson wrote:

On 19 Sep, 09:46, Mr Thant
wrote:

The connections at the other end are more important - the Goblin has no
equivalent to Canonbury tunnel, meaning southbound ECML trains can't
get onto it eaily. Plus anything electric. Plus various occasional
traffic like diverted sleepers heading for the ECML.

There appears to be a eastwards single track link between Harringay
and the Goblin:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl...08583&t=h&z=18

...though there's no easy way for southbound trains to use it to go
east without reversing, if that's what you meant.

How important is the ECML as a freight route?

The electrics issue should have been sorted out by now, and I think
it'll happen once a few hands are eventually forcing into writing some
cheques, and the diverted sleepers must surely fall into the somewhat
rare category. Though I've got nothing to back that assertion up.

If TPTB felt so inclined, I guess they could link to the MML at West
Hampstead or ideally, near the Goblin's link:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?f=q...,0.013089&z=17

There's already a link from the westbound (what you call southbound there)
Goblin to the northbound MML, which is what freight trains need. A link
from the westbound Goblin to the southbound MML seems less useful - unless
you're thinking of opening a freight terminal at Kentish Town?

Indeed, what's currently missing from the system is your blue line - a way
for westbound freight on the NLL to get onto the MML. Score one for the
Goblin! I don't believe there's any way for it to do this without
reversing at the moment, and even with a reverse, it has to go via the
WCML, Acton Wells and Dudden Hill. Or am i missing something?

tom

--
got a DOCTORATE in cold ROCKIN' IT

"Tom Anderson" wrote

Indeed, what's currently missing from the system is your blue line - a way
for westbound freight on the NLL to get onto the MML. Score one for the
Goblin! I don't believe there's any way for it to do this without
reversing at the moment, and even with a reverse, it has to go via the
WCML, Acton Wells and Dudden Hill. Or am i missing something?

You're missing NLL, WLL, Clapham Junction (Windsor Lines), Barnes Bridge,
Kew Curve, Acton Wells, Dudden Hill. It's a long way round, but that's often
the way with freight. There was a recent Accident Report involving a freight
train that had run from Angerstein Wharf to sidings near St Pancras. It had
run via Slade Green, Crayford, Sidcup, Lewisham, Denmark Hill, Factory
Junction, Clapham Junction, Kew Curve, Dudden Hill and West Hampstead.

Peter

In article
,
(Jamie Thompson) wrote:

There appears to be a eastwards single track link between Harringay
and the Goblin:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl...pel+oak,+londo
n&ie=UTF8&ll=51.575743,-0.107122&spn=0.002927,0.008583&t=h&z=18

...though there's no easy way for southbound trains to use it to go
east without reversing, if that's what you meant.

That curve basically accesses Ferme Park sidings IIRC. It can be accessed
from the up direction via the flyover there.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 19 Sep, 16:02, Tom Anderson wrote:
How important is the ECML as a freight route?

Enough to have freight lines between Ally Pally and Finsbury (the ones
being upgraded to passenger grade)....though I'd imagine the Welwyn
bottleneck forces much of the traffic onto the WCML and MML.

There's already a link from the westbound (what you call southbound there)

Yeah, I was taking the NLL as my base, and it runs North-South through
the site, so that's what I went with. You are of course correct.

Goblin to the northbound MML, which is what freight trains need. A link
from the westbound Goblin to the southbound MML seems less useful - unless
you're thinking of opening a freight terminal at Kentish Town?

Point noted...IIRC that curve was formerly used for the passenger
services to Moorgate before electrification, and Kentish town
afterwards, and would be useless for freight unless this was 1930-odd
and freight was still running to St Pancras goods or via the snow Hill
tunnel It is however, the easiest of the curves to build, but
that's the way it goes, I guess.

Indeed, what's currently missing from the system is your blue line - a way
for westbound freight on the NLL to get onto the MML. Score one for the
Goblin! I don't believe there's any way for it to do this without
reversing at the moment, and even with a reverse, it has to go via the
WCML, Acton Wells and Dudden Hill. Or am i missing something?

What stops freight running west to Hampstead Heath, reversing through
Gospel Oak to Junction Road, then running west via Junction Road
Junction to the MML?

On Fri, 19 Sep 2008, Jamie Thompson wrote:

On 19 Sep, 16:02, Tom Anderson wrote:
How important is the ECML as a freight route?

Enough to have freight lines between Ally Pally and Finsbury (the ones
being upgraded to passenger grade)....though I'd imagine the Welwyn
bottleneck forces much of the traffic onto the WCML and MML.

It may be more a case of there once being enough freight to have such
lines. Quail 2005 only calls one of these, the up, a goods line - the
downs are fast, slow 1 and slow 2. I wonder if the retention of the
specific up goods is to do with providing access to the depot and sidings,
which are on the east side of the formation, rather than being for goods
per se.

There's already a link from the westbound (what you call southbound there)

Yeah, I was taking the NLL as my base, and it runs North-South through
the site, so that's what I went with. You are of course correct.

Goblin to the northbound MML, which is what freight trains need. A link
from the westbound Goblin to the southbound MML seems less useful - unless
you're thinking of opening a freight terminal at Kentish Town?

Point noted...IIRC that curve was formerly used for the passenger
services to Moorgate before electrification, and Kentish town
afterwards, and would be useless for freight unless this was 1930-odd
and freight was still running to St Pancras goods or via the snow Hill
tunnel

Quail does indicate that there's a freight terminal just outside St
Pancras: Churchyard Terminal, used for cement and similar. I have no idea
if that predates the rebuild, was temporary during the rebuild, or still
exists.

Anyway, never mind that, bring back Thameslink freight!

Indeed, what's currently missing from the system is your blue line - a
way for westbound freight on the NLL to get onto the MML. Score one for
the Goblin! I don't believe there's any way for it to do this without
reversing at the moment, and even with a reverse, it has to go via the
WCML, Acton Wells and Dudden Hill. Or am i missing something?

What stops freight running west to Hampstead Heath, reversing through
Gospel Oak to Junction Road, then running west via Junction Road
Junction to the MML?

Two reverses! That could work, i just didn't think of it. The challenge is
at the second reverse: getting from the eastbound Goblin to the westbound
track on the link to the MML. You can't do that at Junction Road Junction:
you either have to carry on to Upper Holloway, where there's a crossover,
and reverse east of that, or run wrong-rail along the link and use a
crossover that's down there just before the junction with the MML. I
imagine running on the Upper Holloway would be preferable.

tom

--
Just because Congresspeople do it, doesn't mean it's right. -- Ian York

"Tom Anderson" wrote

Anyway, never mind that, bring back Thameslink freight!

About 70 trains a day in Summer 1946, and probably more in Winter. I'm not
sure how that would fit in with a 16-24tph passenger service. Anyway,
someone's thought of the possibility - Smithfield Sidings are ideally
located for the banker that would be needed from City Thameslink to
Blackfriars.

Peter

Peter Masson wrote:

OTOH there is no access from the NLL to the MML, whereas from the Goblin
there is the connection via Junction Road Junction.

There's the Dudding Hill Loop if you've got a Diesel. That's got
connections from the MML in both directions, though you'd need to
reverse at Acton if you needed to head Eastbound on the NLL.

Cheers,

Barry

On 19 Sep, 20:56, Jamie Thompson wrote:

Enough to have freight lines between Ally Pally and Finsbury (the ones
being upgraded to passenger grade)

My point about the Goblin is that the southbound ECML freight line is
the easternmost track, while the Harringay curve is on the west side,
and in between lie the fast lines and the slow lines. Whereas there's
non-conflicting access to the NLL via the Canonbury curve and Camden
Incline.

....though I'd imagine the Welwyn
bottleneck forces much of the traffic onto the WCML and MML.

I believe freight is sent via Hertford North.

U

On 20 Sep, 01:09, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 19 Sep 2008, Jamie *Thompson wrote:
On 19 Sep, 16:02, Tom Anderson wrote:
How important is the ECML as a freight route?

Enough to have freight lines between Ally Pally and Finsbury (the ones
being upgraded to passenger grade)....though I'd imagine the Welwyn
bottleneck forces much of the traffic onto the WCML and MML.

It may be more a case of there once being enough freight to have such
lines. Quail 2005 only calls one of these, the up, a goods line - the
downs are fast, slow 1 and slow 2. I wonder if the retention of the
specific up goods is to do with providing access to the depot and sidings,
which are on the east side of the formation, rather than being for goods
per se.

There's already a link from the westbound (what you call southbound there)

Yeah, I was taking the NLL as my base, and it runs North-South through
the site, so that's what I went with. You are of course correct.

Goblin to the northbound MML, which is what freight trains need. A link
from the westbound Goblin to the southbound MML seems less useful - unless
you're thinking of opening a freight terminal at Kentish Town?

Point noted...IIRC that curve was formerly used for the passenger
services to Moorgate before electrification, and Kentish town
afterwards, and would be useless for freight unless this was 1930-odd
and freight was still running to St Pancras goods or via the snow Hill
tunnel

Quail does indicate that there's a freight terminal just outside St
Pancras: Churchyard Terminal, used for cement and similar. I have no idea
if that predates the rebuild, was temporary during the rebuild, or still
exists.

Anyway, never mind that, bring back Thameslink freight!

Indeed, what's currently missing from the system is your blue line - a
way for westbound freight on the NLL to get onto the MML. Score one for
the Goblin! I don't believe there's any way for it to do this without
reversing at the moment, and even with a reverse, it has to go via the
WCML, Acton Wells and Dudden Hill. Or am i missing something?

What stops freight running west to Hampstead Heath, reversing through
Gospel Oak to Junction Road, then running west via Junction Road
Junction to the MML?

Two reverses! That could work, i just didn't think of it. The challenge is
at the second reverse: getting from the eastbound Goblin to the westbound
track on the link to the MML. You can't do that at Junction Road Junction:
you either have to carry on to Upper Holloway, where there's a crossover,
and reverse east of that, or run wrong-rail along the link and use a
crossover that's down there just before the junction with the MML. I
imagine running on the Upper Holloway would be preferable.

tom

--
Just because Congresspeople do it, doesn't mean it's right. -- Ian York

Though thinking about it, the use of Junction Road junction means
taking up MML capacity until you get to the freight lines that start
at West Hampstead, so unless you were somehow able to link directly to
them from the NLL bridge there....you're still better off using
Dudding Hill. Given that the MML isn't (for all intents and purposes)
electrified, then the Goblin-Dudding Hill-MML route seems fine for
Diesel freight, so no great loss for the NLL not to have that curve.