Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
![]() |
|
London Transport (uk.transport.london) Discussion of all forms of transport in London. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#11
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
On 10 Oct, 10:24, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Barry Salter wrote: Walter Briscoe wrote: In message of Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:57:13 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T writes [snip] (And I'm pretty sure that Marylebone NR and Baker Street LU are tied together as being a valid OOSI, and I think this is also the case with regards to Fenchurch Street NR and Tower Hill LU - though annoyingly Paddington NR and Lancaster Gate LU is not an OOSI.) Both true. As is Euston Square and Euston but not ES and Warren Street. I've just been through to LU customer services and got one of the more helpful members of their staff. They will try to assemble a list of those interchanges. If they do, I will forward here. I would've thought a fairly good place to start would be the list of stations that are valid for cross-London transfer for National Rail ticketing purposes, as that'll give a vague idea. Do OOSIs affect Oyster pay-as-you-go fares? I do Finsbury Park - Euston - Watford Junction fairly often, and i have no idea if i'm being charged for two trips or one. I suppose i could just go and look at my Oyster history! You should be charged for one. If you do A-B1 then B2-C, you'll be charged the A-C fare, even if that's more then A-B plus B-C (though I don't think it refunds you if A-C costs less than A-B). Obtaining the official list of B1-B2 station pairs is what this thread is about. Everyhing within the same station or marked on the tube map should be on it, plus various others. U |
#12
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:24:36 +0100,
Tom Anderson wrote: Do OOSIs affect Oyster pay-as-you-go fares? I do Finsbury Park - Euston - Watford Junction fairly often, and i have no idea if i'm being charged for two trips or one. I suppose i could just go and look at my Oyster history! You're charged for one. Even if you were doing X - Euston Square walk Euston - Watford Junction then it would be one. I got bitten by this last Thursday. I had the day off and travelled into London around 10am. Without thinking I took the tube to Charing Cross instead of walking and got the train back (I walked back but it was after 7pm). Kerching. That's 3GBP for Euston-Charing Cross because Watford Junction-Zone1 at that time of day is 6GBP even though WJ-Euston is 3GBP and Euston-Zone1 is 1.50GBP. So much for always being charged the cheapest fare on PAYG. (I was travelling with my partner - I wonder whether if we'd swapped cards in Euston then they'd have to give me the 1.50GBP back - that's then clearly two separate journeys on each card by two different people and swapping PAYG cards is allowed.) I'll try taking it up with TfL but last time I had something like this I got an email acknowledgement but nothing futher at all (I asked for a reply by letter as well as email - maybe that was a mistake) Tim. -- God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light. http://www.woodall.me.uk/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/ |
#13
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
In message of Tue, 30 Sep 2008
15:56:35 in uk.transport.london, Walter Briscoe writes In message of Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:27:13 in uk.transport.london, Walter Briscoe writes In message of Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:57:13 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T writes [snip] (And I'm pretty sure that Marylebone NR and Baker Street LU are tied together as being a valid OOSI, and I think this is also the case with regards to Fenchurch Street NR and Tower Hill LU - though annoyingly Paddington NR and Lancaster Gate LU is not an OOSI.) Both true. As is Euston Square and Euston but not ES and Warren Street. I've just been through to LU customer services and got one of the more helpful members of their staff. They will try to assemble a list of those interchanges. If they do, I will forward here. They've just followed up to ask me to couch my request for information as a Freedom of Information Act request. Heigh Ho! ![]() They answered me, yesterday. Unfortunately, I can't copy the data un the answer as they put the following in the reply: "Brief extracts of the material may be reproduced under the fair dealing provisions of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1998". I think they mistakenly refer to the 1988 Act, but know nothing and may be wrong. However I can give a flavour. The following interests me: London Fenchurch Street Aldgate 30 London Fenchurch Street Bank 30 London Fenchurch Street Monument 30 London Fenchurch Street Tower Gateway 30 London Fenchurch Street Tower Hill 30 The example above illustrates that 30 minutes is the most common budget. A curious exception is White City Wood Lane where 20 is allowed. Tower Hill is obvious; I had found Aldgate, experimentally. I am surprised Bank is allowed. Journey Planner shows a 13 minute walk. Bank to Monument is not shown; I queried that - given maintenance. I am inclined to think there ought to be a super interchange covering Bank, Cannon Street, Mansion House, Monument, Moorgate and probably one or two more while escalators are out for maintenance. Times for interchange are not always symmetrical. e.g. 40 is allowed from Aldgate to London Fenchurch Street. I have also questioned 30 Canary Wharf Heron Quays 10. The information was supplied as 90 rows in an Excel file where each row describes a one way interchange. I will probably recast that as 45 rows, each describing a two way interchange. They don't publicise or guarantee the data will remain true. In my FOI question, I asked for a list of out of station pay as you go interchanges and how long was budgeted for them. I got no answer to my question on the criteria for such interchanges but am satisfied that I now know how to make good use of out of station interchanges. -- Walter Briscoe |
#14
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]() "Walter Briscoe" wrote in message ... (And I'm pretty sure that Marylebone NR and Baker Street LU are tied together as being a valid OOSI, and I think this is also the case with regards to Fenchurch Street NR and Tower Hill LU - though annoyingly Paddington NR and Lancaster Gate LU is not an OOSI.) Both true. As is Euston Square and Euston but not ES and Warren Street. I've just been through to LU customer services and got one of the more helpful members of their staff. They will try to assemble a list of those interchanges. If they do, I will forward here. They've just followed up to ask me to couch my request for information as a Freedom of Information Act request. Heigh Ho! ![]() They answered me, yesterday. Unfortunately, I can't copy the data un the answer as they put the following in the reply: "Brief extracts of the material may be reproduced under the fair dealing provisions of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1998". I think they mistakenly refer to the 1988 Act, but know nothing and may be wrong. It seems you weren't the only one who asked. http://londonreconnections.blogspot....ent.html#links Times for interchange are not always symmetrical. e.g. 40 is allowed from Aldgate to London Fenchurch Street. That is because of the frequency of trains from Fenchurch Street. If you just miss a 2tph service then you may have to wait 20-25 minutes before the platform of the next train is announced and you can pass through the ticket barriers. So the interchange time has to allow for the worst case scenario. Peter Smyth |
#15
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
On Tue, 18 Nov 2008, Walter Briscoe wrote:
In message of Tue, 30 Sep 2008 15:56:35 in uk.transport.london, Walter Briscoe writes In message of Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:27:13 in uk.transport.london, Walter Briscoe writes In message of Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:57:13 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T writes [snip] (And I'm pretty sure that Marylebone NR and Baker Street LU are tied together as being a valid OOSI, and I think this is also the case with regards to Fenchurch Street NR and Tower Hill LU - though annoyingly Paddington NR and Lancaster Gate LU is not an OOSI.) Both true. As is Euston Square and Euston but not ES and Warren Street. I've just been through to LU customer services and got one of the more helpful members of their staff. They will try to assemble a list of those interchanges. If they do, I will forward here. They've just followed up to ask me to couch my request for information as a Freedom of Information Act request. Heigh Ho! ![]() They answered me, yesterday. Unfortunately, I can't copy the data un the answer as they put the following in the reply: "Brief extracts of the material may be reproduced under the fair dealing provisions of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1998". I think they mistakenly refer to the 1988 Act, but know nothing and may be wrong. I imagine you're right. But: whilst they have copyright over the text of the document, that doesn't cover the information within it - copyright is over expressions, not ideas. Over the information, they (may) have a database right, which stems from a bit of legislation that amended CDPA 1988, and did indeed come into force in 1998: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1997/19973032.htm Which is all a bit mental and one of the bits of IP law i really don't understand. tom -- Whose house? Run's house! |
#16
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
On 18 Nov, 23:55, Tom Anderson wrote:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1997/19973032.htm The key part is he "A property right ("database right") subsists, in accordance with this Part, in a database if there has been a substantial investment in obtaining, verifying or presenting the contents of the database" I don't think they could reasonably claim that, especially if the version you did publish was radically reformatted, as Walter proposes. It's already safe to say that the info isn't protected as a creative work, so if it isn't a protected database either, it's arguably not under copyright at all and you can do what you like with it. U |
#17
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
In message of Tue,
18 Nov 2008 23:55:26 in uk.transport.london, Tom Anderson writes On Tue, 18 Nov 2008, Walter Briscoe wrote: [snip] They answered me, yesterday. Unfortunately, I can't copy the data un the answer as they put the following in the reply: "Brief extracts of the material may be reproduced under the fair dealing provisions of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1998". I think they mistakenly refer to the 1988 Act, but know nothing and may be wrong. I imagine you're right. But: whilst they have copyright over the text of the document, that doesn't cover the information within it - copyright is over expressions, not ideas. Over the information, they (may) have a database right, which stems from a bit of legislation that amended CDPA 1988, and did indeed come into force in 1998: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1997/19973032.htm Which is all a bit mental and one of the bits of IP law i really don't understand. The words used are "Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1998 (sections 29 and 30)". You refer to a statutory instrument. In message of Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:09:23 in uk.transport.london, Peter Smyth writes [snip] It seems you weren't the only one who asked. http://londonreconnections.blogspot....tion-interchan ges-current.html#links where there is a reference to http://www.dragondark.co.uk/osi/osi.htm which, prima facie, is a copy of the data I got. This is a transposition of the data to halve the number of lines. It shows some weirdness around King's Cross. ![]() supplied but implied by symmetry. I think the data is wrong here as it shows OSI between "King's Cross St. Pancras Met" (with Circle, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan services?) and "King's Cross St. Pancras Tube" (with Northern, Piccadilly and Victoria services?). I was irritated when such OSI stopped working once it became possible to go between those parts of the station without traversing two gatelines. Time limits (in minutes) for free Pay As You Go Out of Station TfL Interchanges A-B Station B type Station A type B-A 40 Aldgate LU London Fenchurch Street NR 30 30 Archway LU Upper Holloway NR 30 50 Baker Street LU London Marylebone NR 30 30 Bank Central/Northern/DLR LU Bank Waterloo & City LU 30 40 Bank LU London Fenchurch Street NR 30 30 Blackfriars LU London Blackfriars NR 30 30 Bow Church DLR Bow Road LU 30 30 Canary Wharf DLR Canary Wharf LU 30 10 Canary Wharf LU Heron Quays DLR 30 50 Edgware Road H&C LU London Marylebone NR 30 30 Elephant & Castle LU Elephant & Castle NR 30 30 Euston LU Euston Square LU 30 30 Euston LU London Euston NR 45 50 Euston Square LU London Euston NR 30 25 Finchley Road LU Finchley Road & Frognal NR 25 30 Hackney Central NR Hackney Downs NR 30 30 Hammersmith D&P LU Hammersmith H&C LU 30 25 Hanger Lane LU Park Royal LU 25 30 Kenton NR Northwick Park LU 30 30 King's Cross St. Pancras Met LU King's Cross St. Pancras Tube LU 30 30 King's Cross St. Pancras Met LU London King's Cross NR ? ? King's Cross St. Pancras Met NR London King's Cross LU 30 30 King's Cross St. Pancras Met LU St Pancras International NR 30 30 King's Cross St. Pancras Tube LU London King's Cross NR ? 30 King's Cross St. Pancras Tube LU St Pancras International NR 30 ? King's Cross St. Pancras Tube NR London King's Cross LU 30 30 Leytonstone LU Leytonstone High Road NR 30 30 Limehouse DLR Limehouse NR 30 45 Liverpool Street LU London Liverpool Street NR 30 30 London Bridge LU London Bridge NR 30 30 London Fenchurch Street NR Monument LU 30 30 London Fenchurch Street NR Tower Gateway DLR 40 30 London Fenchurch Street NR Tower Hill LU 40 30 London King's Cross NR St Pancras International NR 30 30 London Marylebone NR Marylebone LU 40 45 London Paddington NR Paddington LU 30 30 Shadwell LU Shadwell DLR 30 30 Sudbury Hill LU Sudbury Hill, Harrow NR 30 30 Tottenham Hale LU Tottenham Hale NR 30 30 Tower Gateway DLR Tower Hill LU 30 30 Walthamstow Central LU Walthamstow Central NR 30 30 Waterloo LU Waterloo W&C LU 30 30 Waterloo Jubilee LU Waterloo W&C LU 30 30 West Hampstead LU West Hampstead NLL NR 30 30 West Hampstead LU West Hampstead Thameslink NR 30 30 West Hampstead NLL NR West Hampstead Thameslink NR 30 20 White City LU Wood Lane LU 20 NR = National Rail DLR = Docklands Light Railway LU = London Underground -- Walter Briscoe |
#18
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008, Walter Briscoe wrote:
In message of Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:55:26 in uk.transport.london, Tom Anderson writes On Tue, 18 Nov 2008, Walter Briscoe wrote: [snip] They answered me, yesterday. Unfortunately, I can't copy the data un the answer as they put the following in the reply: "Brief extracts of the material may be reproduced under the fair dealing provisions of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1998". I think they mistakenly refer to the 1988 Act, but know nothing and may be wrong. I imagine you're right. But: whilst they have copyright over the text of the document, that doesn't cover the information within it - copyright is over expressions, not ideas. Over the information, they (may) have a database right, which stems from a bit of legislation that amended CDPA 1988, and did indeed come into force in 1998: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1997/19973032.htm Which is all a bit mental and one of the bits of IP law i really don't understand. The words used are "Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1998 (sections 29 and 30)". You refer to a statutory instrument. Yes - one which amends the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act. The text in it (the important bits, at least) became part of that act. Sections 29 and 30 of CDPA 1988 do indeed deal with fair dealing, and 29 was amended by this order to cover databases. The act was originally passed in 1988, but those amendments were made in 1998, and i hypothesise that this is the source of TfL's confused terminology. tom -- uk.local groups TO BE RENAMED uk.lunatic.fringe groups |
#19
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
In message of Wed,
19 Nov 2008 17:34:43 in uk.transport.london, Tom Anderson writes On Wed, 19 Nov 2008, Walter Briscoe wrote: [snip] The words used are "Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1998 (sections 29 and 30)". You refer to a statutory instrument. Yes - one which amends the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act. The text in it (the important bits, at least) became part of that act. Sections 29 and 30 of CDPA 1988 do indeed deal with fair dealing, and 29 was amended by this order to cover databases. The act was originally passed in 1988, but those amendments were made in 1998, and i hypothesise that this is the source of TfL's confused terminology. Thanks! I now have a hypothesis to explain TfL's words. -- Walter Briscoe |
#20
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
Walter - I suspect there may have a couple of versions of the document
doing the rounds, each based on the specific text of individual FOI requests. To give the background to how I got hold of it, within an hour or so of the one Mike H FOIed landing in my inbox, the one with the times landed in there from the TfL press office themselves. I can only think that they believed (correctly as it turned out) that one of the FOI copies would find its way onto the site anyway, so they might as well be preemptive about it and send a copy themselves - even if only to stop me badgering them about OSI confirmations. Certainly looks to me like the copy they sent me was the "full" version that they'd created for you (i've added your initials to the "thanks" on the post). Not sure if it helps you any, but I asked them if they were happy for me to reprint in full and/or recast the data and they indicated (in writing) that as long as I ran it with the TfL statement that's included in the same post, they'd consider it reasonable usage. If you feel there's any interesting points that should be made based off your studies of the OSI it lists, or have any interpretations of the data that you think would be useful to get out there, then I'd be more than happy to run your conclusions on LR John Bull |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Out of station NR interchanges: to touch out or not? | London Transport | |||
Why touch in at interchanges? | London Transport | |||
Easy interchanges in London (Waterloo vs St. Pancras International) | London Transport | |||
The best non-interchange interchanges | London Transport | |||
Thameslink Interchanges | London Transport |