Fares to Shepherd's Bush Overground
 

On Dec 5, 1:52*pm, wrote:
if it's raining I might want to get the Tube to
Shepherds Bush and then WLL - you get charged twice, more than if you
took a journey of equivalent length on the Tube, even changing lines.

No you don't. Oyster PAYG fares are based on the start and end points
of your journey. If you change trains at a recognised interchange,
even if you have to go through barriers or out onto the street, it
counts as a continuation of the same journey. In other words, in your
scenario, the second leg is free.

So changing between the Tube and the WLL at SB doesn't count as
changing mode?

If I travel from, say, St Paul's to Waterloo via Holborn changing onto
a bus from Kingsway, surely I pay £2.50, £1.50 for the Tube and £1.00
for the bus. *If I do the same journey by going on as far as Tottenham
Court Road and get the Northern line it only costs me £1.50. *My point
was that you should be able to do the first journey for the same price
as the second - I don't think you can.

PAYG on the Overground (and on other NR lines where Oyster is
accepted) is treated the same as PAYG on the tube, and hence a journey
that involves both is only considered as one journey. I think this is
true for the DLR as well.

Buses are different. $deity knows why, although my guess would be
technical implementation reasons rather than an ideological dislike of
mixed-mode bus-rail journey.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Fares to Shepherd's Bush Overground
 

PAYG on the Overground (and on other NR lines where Oyster is
accepted) is treated the same as PAYG on the tube, and hence a journey
that involves both is only considered as one journey. I think this is
true for the DLR as well.

Buses are different. $deity knows why, although my guess would be
technical implementation reasons rather than an ideological dislike of
mixed-mode bus-rail journey.

I looked this up on the TfL website and it seems to be true. I have
to admit I didn't realise. Probably because I have only got my Oyster
since moving out of London, and my trips to London are now generally
confined more to the centre for both business and pleasure - so I am
less likely to use Overground services. On top of which there have
been a lot of changes in the last year or so. I know in the past I
have avoided using DLR because I thought I would be charged extra, but
then the stations are close together and I often like to walk anyway.

I suppose buses are different because there is no "end" checkout. But
they could easily bring in a rule whereby if you used a bus within,
say 30 minutes of the start of a recently completed Tube journey, you
wouldn't be charged.

Fares to Shepherd's Bush Overground
 

Fares to Shepherd's Bush Overground
 

On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 06:28:46 -0800 (PST), John B
wrote:

Buses are different. $deity knows why, although my guess would be
technical implementation reasons rather than an ideological dislike of
mixed-mode bus-rail journey.

Even between buses it doesn't give a discount, though. Surely it
would be logical to allow a second free touch-in on a bus if the
previous one was less than, say, an hour ago? That can't be hard to
implement.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Fares to Shepherd's Bush Overground
 

On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:23:25 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

wrote:
PAYG on the Overground (and on other NR lines where Oyster is
accepted) is treated the same as PAYG on the tube, and hence a
journey that involves both is only considered as one journey. I
think this is true for the DLR as well.

Buses are different. $deity knows why, although my guess would be
technical implementation reasons rather than an ideological dislike
of mixed-mode bus-rail journey.

I looked this up on the TfL website and it seems to be true. I have
to admit I didn't realise.

It is valid for any pair of LU/LO/DLR/NR stations where the gates are
programmed for 'out of station interchange', or OSIs, however the list of
OSIs is not formally published. Station pairs explicitly linked on the
latest tube map, eg White City/Wood Lane, or Shepherds Bush LU/LO are OSIs;
as are implicit pairs like the two Hammersmiths. However it is incorrect to
assume all journeys involving a short walk outside the barriers will be
linked, but hopefully you have the picture now.

The current list of OSIs has been compiled by London Reconnections and
verified by TfL.

http://londonreconnections.blogspot....s-current.html

--
Paul C

Fares to Shepherd's Bush Overground
 

On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 19:43:25 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:

On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 06:28:46 -0800 (PST), John B
wrote:

Buses are different. $deity knows why, although my guess would be
technical implementation reasons rather than an ideological dislike of
mixed-mode bus-rail journey.

Even between buses it doesn't give a discount, though. Surely it
would be logical to allow a second free touch-in on a bus if the
previous one was less than, say, an hour ago? That can't be hard to
implement.

It might be logical but it would also cost a great deal of money in
terms of lost revenue. Hong Kong operators have used service cuts to
remove through services where a bus to bus interchange can be put in
place to give little or no financial penalty from changing buses. They
tend to run without fare subsidy so that sort of change to services is
needed to "finance" the lost revenue.

It's possible that over time ridership increases would compensate for
the lost revenue but it would still require short term funding. I
believe New York ended up with more revenue overall a few years after it
implemented free transfer (on PAYG Metrocard) between Subway and Bus to
give one fare for a through journey using both modes. TfL simply doesn't
have the cash to fund such a fundamental change. The other risk would
be that if ridership really did accelerate off the back of that fare
initiative that costs of providing contracted bus services would
increase thus making the cost impacts greater. I'm ignoring the benefit
side of the equation for now.
--
Paul C

Fares to Shepherd's Bush Overground
 

On Dec 5, 8:57*am, Mizter T wrote:
On 5 Dec, 00:39, wrote:





On 4 Dec, 16:52, "Graham Harrison"
wrote:

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message

Why bother, go to Waterloo then Bakerloo/Northern line (to taste)
and then Central Line to White City which is right opposite TV Centre.
Shepherds Bush is right the other end of Shepherds Bush Green and,
frankly, I wouldn't fancy walking back there from TVC after dark.

It's counter intuitive but how about Waterloo, Bakerloo or Jubilee to Baker
St then Hammersmith and City to the new station that I can't remember the
name of?

Google

Wood Lane, that's the one.

I didn't know they had built a new station... six months not working
in London and it seems I'm out of touch already.

Both the new stations at Wood Lane on the H&C and Shepherd's Bush on
the WLL have been built in connection with, and at least partially
financed by, Westfield - i.e. the bods who built, own and run the
mamoth new shopping centre there.

From what I've seen, people pour out of the WLL and head not for
Westfield but directly into the Central Line (as I did when I was last
that way); a bleedin obvious interchange need that waited for an
irrelevant commercial development to pay for it.

Fares to Shepherd's Bush Overground
 

But surely all you would need to do is to set other fares to
compensate? IMO this should have been factored in when they designed
the system: it's what most European systems do, and you can still get
transfare tickets in Newcastle, for example.

In any case, I am sure a lot of people will be making decisions based
on the cost. If travelling on the journey I gave as an example, I
would currently change at TCR for the Northern Line. If I could use
the bus for free, I would change at Holborn for a bus as I usually
reckon this is quicker. So no additional usage.

Fares to Shepherd's Bush Overground
 

On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 04:09:20 -0800 (PST),
wrote:


But surely all you would need to do is to set other fares to
compensate? IMO this should have been factored in when they designed
the system: it's what most European systems do, and you can still get
transfare tickets in Newcastle, for example.

Fares in London are currently hugely different between bus, tube and
rail. We need to be clear what we are talking about. I thought Neil was
referring to bus to bus interchange - if you allow the second journey
for free then that loss of revenue has to be funded somehow. If you
talking about bus to tube / rail or the reverse then fare scales are
very different indeed with tube / rail being zonal and bus being flat.
You could create a further fare scale that allowed through travel at one
price but there'd still be a discount over today's structure that would
have to be funded. I doubt it would be very popular if all the other
fares rose in order to create this structure.

The system was specified to allow single journey through ticketing - I
wrote the spec! Whether it was actually implemented in the design I do
not know as I changed jobs. Tyne and Wear is a different case
altogether - the original scheme was fully zonal and fares on Metro,
Ferry and Bus were common throughout Tyne and Wear prior to
deregulation. They had to be in order for the bus and metro integration
scheme to work. There were spin offs in that bus to bus transfer was
possible but only if you paid for a single (or more) zones. There were
short hop fare stages under the 1 Zone fare which meant some short
journeys involving a change might still be cheaper without a Transfare.
Post deregulation the scheme became "commercial" which stripped out bus
to bus interchange immediately, removed a lot of suburban interchange
points and narrowed the scheme to defined interchanges with the
objective being to reach Newcastle, Gateshead or Sunderland centres. The
only remnants left that still work as per the original scheme are routes
from Heworth to Washington and beyond where commercial bus services
still terminate at Heworth rather than run through to Newcastle.
Recently the honeycomb zone structure has been abandoned in favour of a
strange three zone structure for Transfares but the old limitations
remain.

In some cases there is operator specific through ticketing -
particularly from local services to the express routes that run from
Newcastle (Stagecoach 100) or Gateshead (Go Ahead X66) to the
Metrocentre. Go Ahead are experimenting with other types of through
tickets but that's only because they are breaking the bus network up
into a different structure and introducing connecting services in some
places.

In any case, I am sure a lot of people will be making decisions based
on the cost. If travelling on the journey I gave as an example, I
would currently change at TCR for the Northern Line. If I could use
the bus for free, I would change at Holborn for a bus as I usually
reckon this is quicker. So no additional usage.

If you were to reduce people's transport costs then typically you will
see an increase in ridership. Service quality is also a factor. Why else
do you imagine London's bus network has seen extraordinary growth over
the last few years?

Similar trends apply with rail services.
--
Paul C

Fares to Shepherd's Bush Overground
 

On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 20:01:52 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

It might be logical but it would also cost a great deal of money in
terms of lost revenue. Hong Kong operators have used service cuts to
remove through services where a bus to bus interchange can be put in
place to give little or no financial penalty from changing buses.

Then perhaps the normal single fare should rise to cover it. It is to
me highly unfair that someone who has to use two buses because TfL
don't provide a direct one[1] are penalised over someone who might
make a very long direct journey.

I suppose the cap almost deals with it for someone doing a return
journey, but for a single journey it to me[2] isn't right.

[1] Not that they should. But there are odd gaps in the network, e.g.
nothing from Euston to the Blackfriars area without a change. The
change at Kings Cross is probably the best way to serve the market,
but the added cost is unfair.

[2] Not me directly, as I have an outboundary Travelcard season.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.