I am going to reproduce below the entire Section 9 statement I have
made in respect of being accosted by Network Rail staff at Birmingham
New Street Station last Friday. This is now the subject of both a
British Transport Police investigation against the railway staff
involved, the subject of a formal complaint to Network Rail and I am
taking legal advice regarding trespass to the person. For all railway
photographers out there, take note! If a middle-aged man in a suit is
treated so appallingly, Heaven only knows what railway staff get away
with in respect of others.

Anyone with similar experiences might care to post the same or contact
me directly.

Thanks for your time.

Marc.

EVENTS AT BIRMINHAM NEW STREET STATION, 28th NOVEMBER 2008

On 28th November 2008, I arrived on Platform 5 of Birmingham New
Street Station, en route from Telford Central to London Euston, at
approximately 1.50p.m. I was intending to catch the 2.00p.m train. As
I walked along the platform, I noticed it had a nameplate, “City of
Lichfield”. Since I am both a railway enthusiast, and because I will
be singing in Lichfield Cathedral next year, I decided to take a
photograph of said nameplate. It was a small pocket-sized digital
camera, with the flash disabled.

As soon as the photograph was taken, a female member of the platform
staff came up behind me and asked whether I had permission to take
photographs. I informed her politely that I did not need permission.
She stated that I did need permission, to which I replied again that I
did not. She was by then on her radio speaking to someone else. She
asked me to wait and speak to her manager, which I declined, since the
train’s departure was imminent and I had done nothing wrong. She again
asked me to wait, to which I replied that if she made me miss this
train I would sue her, and I decided that I was under no obligation to
continue to conversation, and then boarded the train.

Very soon afterwards, the same staff member boarded the train with two
colleagues, a tall man in some sort of “security” uniform and another
man, now known to be Mr. Alan Haskins, who described himself as
“station manager”. Having pointed me out to her colleagues, the
original staff member did not stay on the train, but the taller staff
member asked me whether I had taken a photograph, to which I replied
“yes”. Mr. Haskins then asked me whether I had permission to take
photographs, to which I replied that I did not need permission. He
repeated that I did need permission and that I was “not allowed” to
take photographs several times, to each of which I replied that I knew
what I “allowed” to do. He said that for “security reasons” nobody was
allowed to take photographs “on this station”. I stated that this was
a Railtrack station and that the Railtrack website specifically stated
that photography for personal use was allowed. Mr. Haskins then stated
that this was a Network Rail station, and I apologised said I meant
Network Rail, and that the Network Rail website stated what I had
already said (copy attached hereto).

Mr. Haskins then started raising his voice and asked whether I was
“arguing” with him, to which I replied that I was simply telling him
what the legal position was. Mr. Haskins then said that if I
persisted, he would have me removed from the train. I asked what power
he had to stop me taking photographs and what power he had to remove
me from the train. His reply was that he was “station manager” and “if
I do not want you to be in my station I can have you removed and you
will be prevented from using the station”. I again asked what I had
done wrong. Mr. Haskins then said “Can you please leave the train. I
can decide who uses this station. I am asking you to leave the train
and then you will leave the station”. Incredulously, asked whether
Mr. Haskins was seriously asking me to leave this train, to which he
replied “yes”. I finally asked whether he was making the right
decision here, adding that he was making a “ career-altering” decision
by making me leave the train. He again asked me to leave. I then left
the train, followed by Mr. Haskins and the tall male colleague.

When on the platform, in an attempt to make Mr. Haskins see sense and
because I was now seriously worried about being trapped in Birmingham
without a means of getting home, I asked Mr. Haskins whether, if I
went to an Internet café and downloaded the relevant Network Rail
statement, he would allow me back into the station and to get a train
home. Mr. Haskins’ response was that I was being “abusive” to staff,
to which my incredulous reply was to ask him what I had said to him
that was “abusive”. Mr. Haskins then went over to the female platform
staff member who had originally spoken to me, and asked her to repeat
what I had said to her. She accurately repeated the conversation we
had had earlier, which contained nothing “abusive”. Mr. Haskins then
asked her “whether this gentlemen ought to be allowed back on the
train”, and she thought about her answer for a few seconds and then
said “no”, because I had “threatened” to sue her. I replied that I
was simply stating that she had no reason to stop me from boarding the
train and that there would be financial consequences if I missed it,
for which she would have to take responsibility. I added that I had
not raised my voice or used foul language at any stage. The female
staff member agreed that I had not raised my voice or used foul
language.

In utter disbelief, I then again asked Mr. Haskins whether as a
result of this he was going to prevent me from travelling, he then
thought about it for a few seconds and, as the train doors were about
to close, he allowed me back on the train.





MARC MAITLAND
29TH NOVEMBER 2008.




EXTRACT FROM NATIONAL RAIL WEBSITE

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passen...thusiasts.html
PHOTOGRAPHY
Taking photographs on stations is permitted providing it is for
personal use. For any commercial photography, prior permission must be
sought from the appropriate train operator or, from Network Rail at
their 17 major stations. On busy stations the use of a tripod may
cause a dangerous obstruction to passengers and you may be asked not
to use one. In addition, tripod legs must also be kept away from
platform edges and behind the yellow lines. Flash photography on
platforms is not allowed as it may distract the attention of train
drivers and train despatch staff and is therefore a potential safety
hazard. You are also not allowed to take photographs of security
related equipment such as CCTV cameras.

In message
,
" writes
I am going to reproduce below the entire Section 9 statement I have
made in respect of being accosted by Network Rail staff at Birmingham
New Street Station last Friday.

Thank you for posting this Marc. Please keep us informed about future
developments on this matter, as and when this is possible.

I am becoming seriously worried about the way in which things are being
taken in Britain with regard to the treatment of individuals and they
way in which terms like "threatening" and "abuse" are used against
anyone who decides in a polite or calm way to disagree with authority.

Although there are always two sides to any story, from the tone of your
posts here, I'm reasonably sure in my own mind that your account is an
accurate one and that "authority" starts to make all sorts of threats
when it is itself challenged and becomes unsure of itself. Reactions
then can be frightening.

My own experience (not rail related)of:

being threatened by a TWM bus driver for photographing his bus

being challenged by two PCSOs in Camden earlier in the year for carrying
an umbrella on a sunny day"

and the case of a lady challenged in Birmingham's Bullring for taking a
photograph of the outside of the Selfridge's store (because, said the
security guard, she "might be trying to steal the design" ) show just
how far the spirit of paranoia in Britain is proceeding.

In the eighties, I photographed trams and buses in the then DDR without
any problem (although I would have avoided heavy rail installations).
I never thought I would be concerned about picking up a camera on a
British Street, let alone in a railway station.

I am perhaps better to keep to myself my views of the station staff
involved, lest my blood pressure should become a problem.

As I say, I look forward to hearing more in due course.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On Dec 4, 8:35*am, " wrote:
I am going to reproduce below the entire Section 9 statement I have
made in respect of being accosted by Network Rail staff at Birmingham
New Street Station last Friday. This is now the subject of both a
British Transport Police investigation against the railway staff
involved, the subject of a formal complaint to Network Rail and I am
taking legal advice regarding trespass to the person. For all railway
photographers out there, take note! *If a middle-aged man in a suit is
treated so appallingly, Heaven only knows what railway staff get away
with in respect of others.

Anyone with similar experiences might care to post the same or contact
me directly.

Thanks for your time.

Marc,

1. Thank you for posting.
2. May I encourage you to pursue this by all legal means. Sue the
b*st*rds if you can afford it.
3. Contact your MP in this regard.
4. Please post here if your fellow enthusiasts can help. I for one
will be more than happy to write a letter to the New Street Station
Manager. Better yet, my computers can keep his fax machine busy for a
long time.

Thanks again.

In message
,
1506 writes
On Dec 4, 8:35*am, " wrote:
I am going to reproduce below the entire Section 9 statement I have
made in respect of being accosted by Network Rail staff at Birmingham
New Street Station last Friday. This is now the subject of both a
British Transport Police investigation against the railway staff
involved, the subject of a formal complaint to Network Rail and I am
taking legal advice regarding trespass to the person. For all railway
photographers out there, take note! *If a middle-aged man in a suit is
treated so appallingly, Heaven only knows what railway staff get away
with in respect of others.

Anyone with similar experiences might care to post the same or contact
me directly.

Thanks for your time.

Marc,

1. Thank you for posting.
As I've already said, I'd echo this sentiment.

2. May I encourage you to pursue this by all legal means. Sue the
b*st*rds if you can afford it.
I suspect that Marc is well placed to pursue this in a measured and
intellignet way.

3. Contact your MP in this regard.
He or she will probably have no idea on this at all. Worth a try,
though.

The media is worth a go, too. If "you" can get to them first and put
your "side" of the story, it can be effective.

4. Please post here if your fellow enthusiasts can help. I for one
will be more than happy to write a letter to the New Street Station
Manager. Better yet, my computers can keep his fax machine busy for a
long time.
That, on the other hand, would be counter-productive and would probably
equate enthusiasts with geeks and pains in the arse.

What I didn't say on my first reply on the subject was that quoting the
Network Rail guidelines would leave Marc open to not having "reported
in" when arriving on the station. The fact that he was there merely to
change trains and took an "opportunist" photograph outlines this
actually rather significant "hole" in the guidelines themselves.

Just taking a detached view for a moment, what **possible** harm or risk
can someone taking a picture of a nameplate on a locomotive *do*? Do
these people actually stop and think that?

--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

wrote:
I am going to reproduce below the entire Section 9 statement I have
made in respect of being accosted by Network Rail staff at Birmingham
New Street Station last Friday.

(snip)

This will certainly be of interest to readers of uk.railway. You may
wish to consider posting it there as well.

On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, Ian Jelf wrote:

Just taking a detached view for a moment, what **possible** harm or risk
can someone taking a picture of a nameplate on a locomotive *do*? Do
these people actually stop and think that?

Ian, surely by now it's common knowledge that many of Al Qaeda's top
fixers and quartermasters are rabid railfans? A photograph like this could
be traded for a hundredweight of ricin or two or three suicide bombings at
the current going rate!

tom

--
I'm angry, but not Milk and Cheese angry. -- Mike Froggatt

On 04/12/08 19:58, 1506 wrote:
3. Contact your MP in this regard.

Unless your MP happens to be Jacqui Smith, in which case, forget it. You
would have better luck talking to a cowpat.

On 04/12/08 20:42, John Ray wrote:
This will certainly be of interest to readers of uk.railway. You may
wish to consider posting it there as well.

As the incident happened in Birmingham, I wonder why the OP chose to
post in this group (uk.transport.london). I would also suggest posting
to uk.legal and uk.transport, in addition to uk.railway.

In article ,
(Ian Jelf) wrote:

What I didn't say on my first reply on the subject was that quoting
the Network Rail guidelines would leave Marc open to not having
"reported in" when arriving on the station. The fact that he was
there merely to change trains and took an "opportunist" photograph
outlines this actually rather significant "hole" in the guidelines
themselves.

Nothing in what Marc quoted from Network Rail requires any form of
reporting in.

I share the concerns reported here of little Hitlers on railway stations.

I was threatened with not being allowed on a rail replacement bus at
Royston this week because I suggested the member of FCC platform staff
hand out passenger charter forms to the waiting passengers to start
filling in while they were waiting. There was a broken rail at Meldreth.

In the end what a number of us, including the driver of our train, had
first suggested, to arrange wrong line running from Royston to Foxton, was
indeed arranged and we got to Cambridge by train after all.

The NXEA staff there were gleefully handing out Passenger Charter claim
forms to passengers as we arrived. I wonder how many were completed,
though.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message
, at
08:35:57 on Thu, 4 Dec 2008, "
remarked:

{Network Rail Policy]

Taking photographs on stations is permitted providing it is for
personal use.

....

You are also not allowed to take photographs of security
related equipment such as CCTV cameras.

My own experience was of being told I could not take a photograph of an
M&S "Simply Food" store while standing in the public area of a station.

It would be interesting to explore whether or not Network Rail's
permission is binding upon all its tenants - including train operators.
In your case, does Network Rail's permission extend to taking a photo of
a [Virgin?] train.
--
Roland Perry