On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:13:10 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

All those who think joint ITSO/Oyster prepay can be simply 'switched on' on
mainline TOCs please explain...

I suspect strongly that any mainline smartcard ticketing will be of
the "product card" nature, i.e. that you can book a ticket online (for
instance) and then travel without having to collect/print any actual
physical piece of paper.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Dec 14, 7:34*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 14 Dec, 18:58, MIG wrote:





On Dec 14, 5:58*pm, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 12:13:10 on
Sun, 14 Dec 2008, Paul Scott remarked:

As I've suggested before it isn't just the gating question - the main issue
with PAYG on a large network with maximum peak single fares priced
approaching £50, is what amount does a prepay user need on his card, and
what initial deduction does the system make, comparable with TfL's £4.00
'entry charge'?

All those who think joint ITSO/Oyster prepay can be simply 'switched on' on
mainline TOCs please explain...

For making a journey where you properly touch-in and touch-out, the
answer is simple. Use one of the combined Barclaycard/Oyster cards where
the traveller has a significant credit limit via the Barclaycard
element, which can be invoked when they touch out.

For unresolved journeys, there's a much bigger problem, even for people
with hundreds of pounds of cash on an Oyster. If someone touches-in in
London, do we now have to assume they failed to touch-out in Glasgow?

More importantly, will the single fare for a one-mile journey in
London be increased to the price of a first class open Single from
Penzance to Thurso for anyone paying by cash?

And if not, why not? *If it's not justifiable, then neither are the
current LU cash fares.

That doesn't follow, though I understand the position where you're
coming from.

I realise that I got it a bit wrong. What I should have said was,
will the fare from London Bridge to Greenwich be reduced from £359 to
£2 if you use the smartcard ...? (Current anytime single £2.30.)

On 14 Dec, 17:39, Theo Markettos
wrote:

In uk.railway Andy wrote:

I seem to recall seeing somewhere that one of the ideas is the virtual
carnet. Buy 10 tickets for a journey, taken at irregular intevals, but
only pay for 8. This is something that should be relatively simple to
setup with smartcard ticketing.

It would make sense to provide metro-area ticket across modes. *So you'd buy
a DayRider which would be valid on local buses, and on trains (journeys like
Southampton Central to Redbridge). *If you ended up at Poole on a train or
Andover on a bus you've gone too far and aren't travelling with a valid
ticket. *Just like you can travelcard to Watford Junction but not Milton
Keynes.

Er Watford Junction is outside the London zones so a Travelcard is not
valid to travel there (a Travelcard plus boundary extension ticket
would be valid though). A Travelcard issued *from* Watford Junction is
valid for a single return journey from WJ into the zones - but then so
is a Travelcard issued *from* Milton Keynes (I presume such things
exist).


I believe the Welsh Assembly is keen on an Oyster-alike for Cardiff and the
Valleys, which would seem a sensible target area.

It would also work for PAYG, as passengers should know that the
ticket isn't valid outside the metro area. *But I don't know if you'd end up
with a separate PAYG balance for each place, or if someone would implement
a central 'bank of Oyster'.

See Paul Corfield's post downthread - if things do ever get off the
ground then the result will likely be a confusing mish-mash of
different and incompatible systems in different parts of the country,
none of which will offer any PAYG functionality.


(I know Barclaycard have PayWave, but that doesn't replace the Oyster
functionality because you really don't want PIN pads on ticket gates for the
N% of transactions that get referred).


And for the uninitiated N% of transactions would get referred not
because they were deemed suspicions but simply because that's how Visa
PayWave works - a PIN needs to be entered every now and then so as to
assure the system that the card is not stolen. Another issue is that
Visa PayWave is currently configured to only allow purchases below £10
to go through without a PIN. Any notion of there being a PIN pad on a
gate is of course totally unworkable.

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:56:11 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Er Watford Junction is outside the London zones so a Travelcard is not
valid to travel there (a Travelcard plus boundary extension ticket
would be valid though). A Travelcard issued *from* Watford Junction is
valid for a single return journey from WJ into the zones - but then so
is a Travelcard issued *from* Milton Keynes (I presume such things
exist).

They do indeed, I have one right next to me. Just as they do from
every other ex-NSE station.

That said, given that Watford Jn is now in "Zone 9", the same as
Watford Met, does there exist a 1-9 ODTC that might also be valid (on
LM as well?) as well as the normal outboundary Travelcard which is
effectively a 1-6 plus a CDR?

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On 14 Dec, 20:08, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:56:11 -0800 (PST), Mizter T

wrote:
Er Watford Junction is outside the London zones so a Travelcard is not
valid to travel there (a Travelcard plus boundary extension ticket
would be valid though). A Travelcard issued *from* Watford Junction is
valid for a single return journey from WJ into the zones - but then so
is a Travelcard issued *from* Milton Keynes (I presume such things
exist).

They do indeed, I have one right next to me. *Just as they do from
every other ex-NSE station.

I thought it most unlikely that they didn't exist from MKC!


That said, given that Watford Jn is now in "Zone 9", the same as
Watford Met, does there exist a 1-9 ODTC that might also be valid (on
LM as well?) as well as the normal outboundary Travelcard which is
effectively a 1-6 plus a CDR?


Watford Junction is definitively *not* in zone 9 - see the Tube map:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...d-Tube-map.gif

Internally TfL refers to Watford Jn as being in "zone W" for fares
purposes, though not in any customer facing information. "Zone W" was
seemingly created for the purpose of implementing Oyster PAYG to and
from the station.

There is a table buried in an annexe to a TfL Board meeting which
details all the PAYG fares and associated caps - and there are caps
that apply to "zone W" as well. The table makes clear that other fares
such as Travelcards, CDRs etc are set by LM (though presumably LM will
have some input into the zone W fares - though perhaps they didn't at
first given that they weren't accepting Oyster PAYG it for the first
week before they caved in). Point being, Travelcards to and from
Watford Jn are LM's baby - they get to set the price, and I assume
they'll guard that jealously.

Aside from that issue, yes there is now such a thing as a zones 1-9
Day Travelcard.

On 14 Dec, 20:50, Mizter T wrote:
On 14 Dec, 20:08, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:56:11 -0800 (PST), Mizter T

wrote:
Er Watford Junction is outside the London zones so a Travelcard is not
valid to travel there (a Travelcard plus boundary extension ticket
would be valid though). A Travelcard issued *from* Watford Junction is
valid for a single return journey from WJ into the zones - but then so
is a Travelcard issued *from* Milton Keynes (I presume such things
exist).

They do indeed, I have one right next to me. *Just as they do from
every other ex-NSE station.

I thought it most unlikely that they didn't exist from MKC!



That said, given that Watford Jn is now in "Zone 9", the same as
Watford Met, does there exist a 1-9 ODTC that might also be valid (on
LM as well?) as well as the normal outboundary Travelcard which is
effectively a 1-6 plus a CDR?

Watford Junction is definitively *not* in zone 9 - see the Tube map:http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...d-Tube-map.gif

Internally TfL refers to Watford Jn as being in "zone W" for fares
purposes, though not in any customer facing information. "Zone W" was
seemingly created for the purpose of implementing Oyster PAYG to and
from the station.

There is a table buried in an annexe to a TfL Board meeting which
details all the PAYG fares and associated caps - and there are caps
that apply to "zone W" as well. The table makes clear that other fares
such as Travelcards, CDRs etc are set by LM (though presumably LM will
have some input into the zone W fares - though perhaps they didn't at
first given that they weren't accepting Oyster PAYG it for the first
week before they caved in). Point being, Travelcards to and from
Watford Jn are LM's baby - they get to set the price, and I assume
they'll guard that jealously.

Aside from that issue, yes there is now such a thing as a zones 1-9
Day Travelcard.

Although for a National Rail issued travelcard, to get all zones
including zones 7, 8 and 9 you need to have it issued from a station
in zone 7, 8 or 9 - e.g. Hatch End, Carpenders Park, Bushey, Watford
High Street, Amersham, Chalfont & Latimer, Rickmansworth or
Chorleywood. You get a R1256 travelcard also valid at R789.

London Underground obviously issue a R1-9 travelcard on request.

Travelcards issued at Watford Junction and Great Missenden and points
north west only have R1256 availability (and less for season tickets
as requested (e.g. R56 etc)).

Jonathan

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:50:00 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Watford Junction is definitively *not* in zone 9 - see the Tube map:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...d-Tube-map.gif

I stand corrected. What's the situation from Bushey, though? Are
there both outboundary ODTCs and 1-9 ODTCs in use? Which is cheaper?
Are both valid on both routes?

Aside from that issue, yes there is now such a thing as a zones 1-9
Day Travelcard.

I suppose there always was a 1-D.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Mizter T wrote

accept Oyster (aka Philip's proprietary MiFare smartcards). IIRC the
DfT had agreed to fund work done by TfL to their Oyster readers on
ticket gates, on standalone validators (such as on the DLR) and on
buses to modify them so as to be able to read ITSO smartcards too -
is
this still on? If it is that still leaves questions open as to the

The new (English) National bus passes for Senior etc Citizens were
issued in Apr '08 on ITSO cards and is valid on Tfl buses so there will
be an immediate application for the modification. Similarly if Freedom
passes are re-issued in 2010 on ITSO cards they will be then fully
compatible with non-London English bus passes.

--
Mike D

On Dec 14, 5:39*pm, Theo Markettos
wrote:
In uk.railway Andy wrote:

I seem to recall seeing somewhere that one of the ideas is the virtual
carnet. Buy 10 tickets for a journey, taken at irregular intevals, but
only pay for 8. This is something that should be relatively simple to
setup with smartcard ticketing.

It would make sense to provide metro-area ticket across modes. *So you'd buy
a DayRider which would be valid on local buses, and on trains (journeys like
Southampton Central to Redbridge). *If you ended up at Poole on a train or
Andover on a bus you've gone too far and aren't travelling with a valid
ticket. *Just like you can travelcard to Watford Junction but not Milton
Keynes.

Though presumably to avoid massive abuse this would have to be
accompanied with a 'touch in and touch out' policy on buses and other
modes, which could be tricky with the one-door, tickets from the
driver approach adopted to bus operation in most areas other than
London.

Surely it's a tentative (and arguably over-optimistic) step towards
what the Netherlands has - a national smart card which is valid for
local transport anywhere in the country, or (at least) in the South
East, but which won't make any real sense until lots of operators and
areas are supporting it. Even without 'PAYG' train ticketing, you
could still have some form of capping, whereby the (electronically
deducted) bus journeys at either end of a Cambridge city centre -
Southampton town centre journey were effectively 'refunded' when the
train ticket was added to the smartcard.

On 16 Dec, 16:16, Rupert Candy wrote:
On Dec 14, 5:39*pm, Theo Markettos
wrote:

In uk.railway Andy wrote:

I seem to recall seeing somewhere that one of the ideas is the virtual
carnet. Buy 10 tickets for a journey, taken at irregular intevals, but
only pay for 8. This is something that should be relatively simple to
setup with smartcard ticketing.

It would make sense to provide metro-area ticket across modes. *So you'd buy
a DayRider which would be valid on local buses, and on trains (journeys like
Southampton Central to Redbridge). *If you ended up at Poole on a train or
Andover on a bus you've gone too far and aren't travelling with a valid
ticket. *Just like you can travelcard to Watford Junction but not Milton
Keynes.

Though presumably to avoid massive abuse this would have to be
accompanied with a 'touch in and touch out' policy on buses and other
modes, which could be tricky with the one-door, tickets from the
driver approach adopted to bus operation in most areas other than
London.

Surely it's a tentative (and arguably over-optimistic) step towards
what the Netherlands has - a national smart card which is valid for
local transport anywhere in the country, or (at least) in the South
East, but which won't make any real sense until lots of operators and
areas are supporting it. Even without 'PAYG' train ticketing, you
could still have some form of capping, whereby the (electronically
deducted) bus journeys at either end of a Cambridge city centre -
Southampton town centre journey were effectively 'refunded' when the
train ticket was added to the smartcard.

The Solent council's report on smartcard opportunities is at

http://www.portsmouth.gov.uk/media/S...ortunities.pdf

The main points a

lack of incentive for bus operators to invest

possibiliy of validity on ferries

PAYG with capping style functionality is possible in the Solent
Travelcard area