Mizter T wrote

The other big deal about 2nd January 2009 is that the Elderly
Freedom Pass
acquires 24-hour validity on TfL services - or, at least, that's
what their
website appears to say:
http://www.freedompass.org/important.htm
[...]
It's also worth noting that the validity of English National Bus
Passes (i.e. those issued outside of London) on London Buses will be
the same as before, i.e. they are only valid between 09:30 and 23:00
on weekdays. This obviously should be borne in mind when planning
trips with visiting friends etc.

wrong twice.

From 1 Apr 2008 to 2 Jan 2009 English National Bus Passes were valid
on Tfl buses at w/e and from 09:00 M-F and from that date they will be
valid 24 Hrs

(URL above)

24 hour Elderly Freedom Pass acceptance on TfL services (buses, tube,
trams and DLR) and English National Concessionary Bus Pass acceptance
on TfL bus services will start on 2 January 2009. View a map of the
routes covered in this 24 hour service. ==

I agree this could be better put

http://www.elmbridge.gov.uk/Elmbridg...Community%20Su
pport%20Services/InfosheetfornewbuspassesApril2008.pdf

Note that the English National Concessionary Bus Pass and the Freedom
pass are valid on "all local bus services in the London area", thus on
at least one which operates wholly with the zones but on which
Travelcards are not valid (and also on several non-Tfl services that
start within the zones).

--
Mike D

On 1 Jan, 21:48, Johannes Patruus wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

The other big deal about 2nd January 2009 is that the Elderly Freedom Pass
acquires 24-hour validity on TfL services - or, at least, that's what their
website appears to say:
http://www.freedompass.org/important.htm


At the risk of bombarding this thread with my own posts, it is perhaps
worth noting something else about 2nd January as well... at least
something else with regards to transport ticketing in London, as
opposed to what the weather was like or what the Town Crier of London
had for breakfast this morning.

To the point... Friday 2nd January (i.e. today) also sees the start of
the relaunched "Bus & Tram Discount Scheme" for London residents on
Income Support, which gives half-price bus (and tram) travel when
using Oyster PAYG - specifically, bus fares are 50p; the daily Oyster
cap for bus travel is halved at £1.65; and all bus passes are half-
price.

More info he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/5568.aspx

This is the successor scheme to the cancelled Venezuelan oil deal
funded scheme that Boris cancelled in May shortly after assuming
office. It is essentially the same in terms of the benefit offered to
low-income Londoners, and also in terms of how it operates on a
passenger/customer-facing level, the difference being the lack of
Venezuelan involvement.

I certainly give credit to Boris for resuscitating this scheme - it's
a scheme that has the potential to be of very significant help to
those who are working, have a low income and whose finances are very
stretched.


-----
P.S. One little pondering of a more technical interest about this
scheme...
The blurb says it is "to help those people on Income Support who do
not already receive any other free or discounted travel concessions".

This would appear to be aimed at excluding those who hold a Freedom
Pass, take advantage of the Veterans Concessionary Travel Scheme, have
a Student Oyster card, or one of the "Zip" Oyster cards for those
under 18 (in any case these schemes generally offer better benefits
than the aforementioned Bus & Tram Discount Scheme).

However I did then wonder whether this is also related to how many
discounts an Oyster card is capable of holding at the same time -
specifically whether it could hold a Railcard discount *and* a Bus &
Tram Discount? The only situation in which I can really see this might
occur is where a person holds a 16-25 (aka YP) Railcard and is also
eligible for the Bus & Tram Discount - the latter needs to be loaded
on an Oyster card, the former can be. Can an Oyster card deal with
both discounts, or does it just have one 'discount slot' and once
that's full then it can't hold any more?

(The only other possibility is that of someone who holds a Disabled
Persons Railcard and is also eligible for the Bus & Tram Discount -
but I would have thought that person would be eligible for the
disabled persons Freedom Pass instead, unless the eligibility
requirements are stricter for that than they are for the DP Railcard.)

On 2 Jan, 20:34, Tony Dragon wrote:

Paul Terry wrote:

In message
,
Chris writes

I don't know - but plenty choose to in the evening peak.....so why not
the am peak.....

Given that Freedom passes are available from the age of 60, but many
people continue to work to at least 65, there will be a fair number of
Freedom Pass users that travel in peak hours, but this does not
necessarily indicate that the numbers will suddenly rise just because it
has become free to do so.

Not in the morning peak hours for Freedom Pass holders. (yet)


Not on National Rail, no, but as of this morning they are valid 24-
hours a day (i.e. inc. the morning peak) on all *TfL* services - i.e.
London Buses, LU, DLR, London Overground, Croydon Tramlink.

"Neil Williams" wrote:

I expect it won't be. Why would someone with the whole day available
to them choose to travel in such unpleasant conditions unless they
really needed to? (And if they do really need to now, they'll likely
travel and pay the fare).

IMX, pensioners tend to be early risers, and early to bed. This is
especially true in the winter, when many are reluctant to venture out once
it turns dark. In days gone by (before widespread BACS payment of state
pensions), the queues outside post offices on 'pension morning' attested to
this generalisation. Again, why stand when you could simply go a little
later in the day? It wasn't rational, but it certainly happened.

My guess is that the rule change will generate a fair bit of 'hospital
appointment' traffic, and a fair number of journeys originating in the
suburbs, where there is onward travel to be undertaken on National Rail to
(eg visit relatives) in other parts of the country. Plus plenty of local
shopping trips.

At the risk of appearing a scrooge, I fail to see how this rule change can
be justified on economic or social grounds. Free pensioner travel between
the peaks has an economic justification, in that the marginal cost is close
to zero, as the system is operating nowhere near to capacity. This is
manifestly not true of the Tube in zones 1-3 during the peaks, and nor is
true of many (but not all) central and suburban bus routes.

Nor can free pensioner travel be justified on the grounds of reducing
inequality, as pensioners are statistically wealthier than other age
groups - eg students or young families. In particular, many of the 'baby
boomers' just retiring have participated in:

i) The house price boom/right to buy.
ii) Excellent final salary pension schemes.
iii) Profits from privatisation share issues in the 80s.
iv) Good annuities from private pensions.

The Government (and it appears the opposition) want ordinary working people,
who will not participate in the above exceptional gains, to pay for these
pensioner privileges, irrespective of pensioner means. Indeed, as we have
seen, the current Government want the very *lowest* paid to bear the burden,
through the abolition of the 10p rate, and marginal tax rates higher than
those faced by higher rate taxpayers. This is an interesting policy position
for a supposedly left-wing Government to adopt, wrapped in an absurd
sentimentality about the elderly, which has rendered it politically
unacceptable to suggest that any pensioner benefits should be eroded or
means tested.

What chance that some helping hand, in these difficult times, will be given
to the economically productive, who are paying the state pensions of the
retired?

Chris

"Chris Read" wrote in message

....
At the risk of appearing a scrooge, I fail to see how this rule
change can be justified on economic or social grounds. Free pensioner
travel between the peaks has an economic justification, in that the
marginal cost is close to zero, as the system is operating nowhere
near to capacity. This is manifestly not true of the Tube in zones
1-3 during the peaks, and nor is true of many (but not all) central
and suburban bus routes.
Nor can free pensioner travel be justified on the grounds of reducing
inequality, as pensioners are statistically wealthier than other age
groups - eg students or young families. In particular, many of the
'baby boomers' just retiring have participated in:

i) The house price boom/right to buy.
ii) Excellent final salary pension schemes.
iii) Profits from privatisation share issues in the 80s.
iv) Good annuities from private pensions.

The Government (and it appears the opposition) want ordinary working
people, who will not participate in the above exceptional gains, to
pay for these pensioner privileges, irrespective of pensioner means.
Indeed, as we have seen, the current Government want the very
*lowest* paid to bear the burden, through the abolition of the 10p
rate, and marginal tax rates higher than those faced by higher rate
taxpayers. This is an interesting policy position for a supposedly
left-wing Government to adopt, wrapped in an absurd sentimentality
about the elderly, which has rendered it politically unacceptable to
suggest that any pensioner benefits should be eroded or means tested.

Probably for one simple reason: pensioners tend to have a high turnout
rate in elections, quite unlike the young, who have not yet seen the
point. And the number of over-60s is growing, while there are fewer
young voters.

On 3 Jan, 21:25, "Chris Read" wrote:
"Neil Williams" wrote:
I expect it won't be. *Why would someone with the whole day available
to them choose to travel in such unpleasant conditions unless they
really needed to? *(And if they do really need to now, they'll likely
travel and pay the fare).

IMX, pensioners tend to be early risers, and early to bed. This is
especially true in the winter, when many are reluctant to venture out once
it turns dark. In days gone by (before widespread BACS payment of state
pensions), the queues outside post offices on 'pension morning' attested to
this generalisation. Again, why stand when you could simply go a little
later in the day? It wasn't rational, but it certainly happened.

See also the incredible number of pensioners/elderly people in the
supermarkets on Saturdays - the busiest, least pleasant day to go
shopping. Most odd.

I agree with Chris; this is a crazy, unnecessary change which BoJo
will hopefully have the guts to rescind should it cause extra
overcrowding.

Patrick