In message
,
John B writes
I don't think that's true. The track layout at CULG implies that the
through platforms aren't reversible:
http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/picc...ayout...giving you 1
reverser at a time instead of 3 at Cockfosters.

It is quite possible to have 3 reversers (east to west) at the same time
at Arnos. Only platform 2/3 can reverse west to east though.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

wrote:
"a stalled train at cockfosters" whatever the hell
thats supposed to mean.

How can you not understand what that means?

On Jan 7, 10:14*pm, Stuart wrote:
wrote:
"a stalled train at cockfosters" whatever the hell
thats supposed to mean.

How can you not understand what that means?

Its very difficult to stall an electric motor so it won't turn and
impossible to stall a dozen of them simultaniously. Its basically
another LU buzzword bingo catch all phrase for a buggered up train
which could be anything from sized brakes to it becoming gapped and it
tells us nothing. Why they can't just say its broken down instead of
trying to sound in-the-know when they probably don't have a clue by
using a word such as stalled is anyones guess.

B2003

"John B" wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 1:52 pm, wrote:
1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or

MId to late afternoon.

Right boys n' girls, this is what happened...

(I have simplified this a bit but it's still gonna' be long)

At about 14:53 a train departed CK platform 4, as it got out of the platform
it became rear-tripped, coming to a halt with the rear of the train about 2
metres out of the platform.

The T/Op went through his checks and identified the problem. He then set
about getting the train moving.

Sadly this is when it went all man-boobs up.

The train had come to a stand on the one bit of track leaving CK where it
was completely off juice (gapped in LU jargon) AND where the train will not
roll - in either direction.

Because the train was gapped the compressors were not working, and with the
rear trip being operated (air escaping from the pressure switch) and several
attempts to get the brakes to release, the available air on the train
dropped below 3 bar at which point the train was not going to move no matter
what unless it got back onto traction current.

The SOP for this situation used to be to get a set of gap jumper leads
(basically a 640 volt extension lead, with a plug to go into the side of the
train on one end and a pair of shoes to go onto an adjacent possie and
neggie rail on the other) that were stored locally to where trains could be
gapped. Sadly LU's reading of the electricity at work act coupled with the
current elf n' safety fetish has meant that gap jumpers have been deemed to
be a BAD THING and have been removed from the majority of sites where we
used to have them just in case someone who doesn't know what their doing
tries to play with them.

So, we've got a train sitting just outside CK preventing any other train
going west from CK. We can get eastbound trains into P1 and P2/3 but the
only place they can go after that is into the depot. (Which is what we did
with the 3 trains that were stuck in section between OK & CK.) We can
reverse trains at WG, AG & OK (which is what we did).

The Arnos DMT drove up to CK, along with Tubelines staff from CFDT and
station staff, but despite our best efforts we were unable to move the
train.

The ERU (Emergency Response Unit) had also been summoned and they were
diverted to fetch the one set of gap jumpers known to be available.

These were at Golders Green, the ERU were coming from Vauxhall so we ain't
talking instant response here.

Whilst this was going on, the customers on the stalled train expressed a
desire to get off and continue their journey by other means, which, given
that they had now been sitting there for 45 minutes was not unreasonable. So
we got everyone into the car closest to the platform, cleared any trains
between AG and OK, knocked the juice off, SCDs down, out with the train's
detrainment ladder, walked the 15 customers off the train and onto CK
platform, SCDs up, detrainment ladder back up and juice back on. The juice
was off from 16:04 to 16:10. The current section runs from Cockfosters to
Southgate, so we lost the OK reversing facility whilst the detrainment took
place. This translated into about a 20 minute period that we had no trains
running between AG and OK. Up until the detrainment we had been reversing at
the 3 sites available to us. Once the detrainment had been completed we
resumed OK reversing whilst we waited for the ERU to turn up with our jump
leads.

The ERU arrived on site at 17:05, we got the jump leads to the train. At
this point we had to again get some trains out of section and so discharged
TC at 17:15, deployed the jumpers, recharged at 17:20. We then had to let
the air on the train build up, moved the train forward the 2 feet required
to get it back on juice, knocked the juice back off at 17:30, removed the
jumpers, juice back on at 17:35, train on the move at 17:36, delay 167
minutes.

Whilst all this was going on, a track failure at Wood Green meant that we
lost the WG reversing facility from about 16:30 onwards.

The various discharges of traction current meant that we were not able to
reverse at Oakwood from about 16:00 to 16:20 and from 17:10 to 17:40.

So, Mr. B, I'm sorry that for you "Normal Crap Service" was resumed, we
didn't do it deliberately and believe it or not some of us do care. If you
want to get a chuckle out of the whole sorry saga, when I said that the
Arnos DMT drove to CK, that man was me, only problem is I had not driven a
car since 1990, so you can comfort yourself with thought that at least one
of the bone idle useless layabouts who work for LU was actually sh*tting
himself.

Disclaimer: All opininions are my own.
--
Cheers, Steve.
Change jealous to sad to reply.

On Jan 9, 3:38*am, "Steve Dulieu"
wrote:
"John B" wrote in message

...
On Jan 6, 1:52 pm, wrote:

1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or

MId to late afternoon.

Right boys n' girls, this is what happened...

(I have simplified this a bit but it's still gonna' be long)

At about 14:53 a train departed CK platform 4, as it got out of the platform
it became rear-tripped, coming to a halt with the rear of the train about 2
metres out of the platform.

The T/Op went through his checks and identified the problem. He then set
about getting the train moving.

Sadly this is when it went all man-boobs up.

The train had come to a stand on the one bit of track leaving CK where it
was completely off juice (gapped in LU jargon) AND where the train will not
roll - in either direction.

Thanks for the comprehensive explanation (which I won't repeat).

The bit I don't understand is how a whole train can be gapped. Could
you clarify how that can occur (and why it isn't avoided for that
matter)? How many shoes need to be in contact for movement to be
possible, compressors to work etc?

On Jan 9, 3:38*am, "Steve Dulieu"
wrote:
gapped. Sadly LU's reading of the electricity at work act coupled with the
current elf n' safety fetish has meant that gap jumpers have been deemed to
be a BAD THING and have been removed from the majority of sites where we
used to have them just in case someone who doesn't know what their doing
tries to play with them.

Thats just bloody dumb. I suspect even the nappy wearers at the H&SE
would assume that an electric railway sometimes requires people to
work with electricity! Someone in LU management needs a kicking.

These were at Golders Green, the ERU were coming from Vauxhall so we ain't
talking instant response here.

Words for once fail me.

The various discharges of traction current meant that we were not able to
reverse at Oakwood from about 16:00 to 16:20 and from 17:10 to 17:40.

If the announcements had just said that the power supply had to be
switched off to detrain passengers instead of just saying "stalled
train. the end" all would have been explained.

Arnos DMT drove to CK, that man was me, only problem is I had not driven a
car since 1990, so you can comfort yourself with thought that at least one

So i'm guessing you don't own a car and had to borrow one so why
didn't the owner of the car drive up there? I won't ask about
insurance

of the bone idle useless layabouts who work for LU was actually sh*tting
himself.

Look at it from a passengers point of view stuck in a tunnel yet again
north of finsbury park with no information. Lets be honest , its not
the first time this has happened. In the end me and the wife ended up
getting a train back southbound to finsbury park to catch FCC which by
then was offering a once every 20 mins service. Ended up at new
southgate (no service on the hertford north line it appeared) and
waiting in the cold for a 382 bus for another 20 mins which then
proceeded to go around every damn side street it could find. Ended up
taking not far off 2 hours to get home from central london. It only
takes 3 hours to walk it! (I had to do just that on 7/7).

Anyway , I take back what I said about LU staff. It seems your knob
headed management caused this by removing all the gap leads. Bunch of
****s.

B2003

In message of Fri, 9
Jan 2009 03:38:34 in uk.transport.london, Steve Dulieu
writes

Thanks for a REALLY interesting posting. It would do no harm for the TfL
website to have similar reports for those few customers interested.
(Pleasedon't count this as top-posting).


"John B" wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 1:52 pm, wrote:
1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or

MId to late afternoon.

Right boys n' girls, this is what happened...

(I have simplified this a bit but it's still gonna' be long)

At about 14:53 a train departed CK platform 4, as it got out of the

It took me a while to be confident that CK means Cockfosters. You use
several other two letter station codes. Where is the set publicly
available?

[snip]
The T/Op went through his checks and identified the problem. He then

Presumably Train Operator or driver in normal parlance, but planes are
driven by pilots and ships by helmsmen.

The train had come to a stand on the one bit of track leaving CK where
it was completely off juice (gapped in LU jargon) AND where the train
will not roll - in either direction.

I presume that is a bit of track where most carriage lighting vanishes.
(I guess residual lighting comes from batteries.) Why are such gaps
needed?

[snip]

The SOP for this situation used to be to get a set of gap jumper leads

Standard Operating Procedure

CK.) We can reverse trains at WG, AG & OK (which is what we did).

Wood Green, Arnos Grove and Oakwood.

The Arnos DMT drove up to CK, along with Tubelines staff from CFDT and

District Manager (Trains)? Completely Fouled Dam Trains?

[snip]

Whilst this was going on, the customers on the stalled train expressed
a desire to get off and continue their journey by other means, which,
given that they had now been sitting there for 45 minutes was not
unreasonable. So we got everyone into the car closest to the platform,

I love that summary of the customers' perspective. Was the driver able
to use announcements for customer communication during the whole of the
incident to this point.

cleared any trains between AG and OK, knocked the juice off, SCDs down,

SCD?

discharged TC at 17:15, deployed the jumpers, recharged at 17:20. We

Train Current? "discharged TC" = "switched track power off"?

then had to let the air on the train build up, moved the train forward
the 2 feet required to get it back on juice, knocked the juice back off

0.6m?

So, Mr. B, I'm sorry that for you "Normal Crap Service" was resumed, we
didn't do it deliberately and believe it or not some of us do care. If
you want to get a chuckle out of the whole sorry saga, when I said that
the Arnos DMT drove to CK, that man was me, only problem is I had not
driven a car since 1990, so you can comfort yourself with thought that
at least one of the bone idle useless layabouts who work for LU was
actually sh*tting himself.
Is the ability to drive a car part of your job?
Should it not be exercised formally and regularly?
You are plainly too valuable a member of staff to risk as described.
(Not to mention elfin safety.)

Could a C.S.A. (Customer Service Assistant) have been your driver?
The 40 minutes you would have had to budget to travel by 298 bus is
probably excessive. A Taxi account would probably be better.
On the other hand, I am sure stress probably affected those dealing with
the situation.


Disclaimer: All opininions are my own.

2 obvious questions:
1) Was there train operator error?
2) Should jumper availability be reviewed? e.g. Put them in a locked
cupboard with a notice indicating the criteria for opening the cupboard.
The expected return period of such a cost (delay in powering the train)
would have to be balanced against the cost of more availability.

Thank you again for a REALLY interesting report.
Thanks to Boltar for THIS thread that stimulated your response.
--
Walter Briscoe

On Jan 9, 11:24*am, Walter Briscoe
wrote:
2 obvious questions:
1) Was there train operator error?
2) Should jumper availability be reviewed? e.g. Put them in a locked
cupboard with a notice indicating the criteria for opening the cupboard.
The expected return period of such a cost (delay in powering the train)
would have to be balanced against the cost of more availability.

Wonder if it would be possible to have some sort of creep mode that
would work off the train batteries that could move it forward a couple
of metres at a crawl on level ground. It would probably drain the
battery in seconds but would solve gapping issues if the bedwetters
have decided gap leads are too dangerous to be used.

B2003

"MIG" wrote in message
...
On Jan 9, 3:38 am, "Steve Dulieu"
wrote:
"John B" wrote in message

...
On Jan 6, 1:52 pm, wrote:

1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or

MId to late afternoon.

Right boys n' girls, this is what happened...

(I have simplified this a bit but it's still gonna' be long)

At about 14:53 a train departed CK platform 4, as it got out of the
platform
it became rear-tripped, coming to a halt with the rear of the train about
2
metres out of the platform.

The T/Op went through his checks and identified the problem. He then set
about getting the train moving.

Sadly this is when it went all man-boobs up.

The train had come to a stand on the one bit of track leaving CK where it
was completely off juice (gapped in LU jargon) AND where the train will
not
roll - in either direction.

Thanks for the comprehensive explanation (which I won't repeat).

The bit I don't understand is how a whole train can be gapped. Could
you clarify how that can occur (and why it isn't avoided for that
matter)? How many shoes need to be in contact for movement to be
possible, compressors to work etc?

You need one positive and one negative shoe on current. Because of all the
point work at CK there are numerous gaps in the juice rails. Had the train
stopped two feet in either direction it would not have become gapped.
--
Cheers, Steve.
Change jealous to sad to reply.

"Walter Briscoe" wrote in message
news
In message of Fri, 9 Jan
2009 03:38:34 in uk.transport.london, Steve Dulieu
writes

Thanks for a REALLY interesting posting. It would do no harm for the TfL
website to have similar reports for those few customers interested.
(Pleasedon't count this as top-posting).


"John B" wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 1:52 pm, wrote:
1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or

MId to late afternoon.

Right boys n' girls, this is what happened...

(I have simplified this a bit but it's still gonna' be long)

At about 14:53 a train departed CK platform 4, as it got out of the

It took me a while to be confident that CK means Cockfosters. You use
several other two letter station codes. Where is the set publicly
available?


Not sure that there is a publicly available set, sorry...

[snip]
The T/Op went through his checks and identified the problem. He then

Presumably Train Operator or driver in normal parlance,

Correct...

The train had come to a stand on the one bit of track leaving CK where it
was completely off juice (gapped in LU jargon) AND where the train will
not roll - in either direction.

I presume that is a bit of track where most carriage lighting vanishes. (I
guess residual lighting comes from batteries.) Why are such gaps needed?

Correct, gaps are to allow for points, section isolation, current section
change overs...


[snip]

The SOP for this situation used to be to get a set of gap jumper leads

Standard Operating Procedure

CK.) We can reverse trains at WG, AG & OK (which is what we did).

Wood Green, Arnos Grove and Oakwood.

Correct...

The Arnos DMT drove up to CK, along with Tubelines staff from CFDT and

District Manager (Trains)? Completely Fouled Dam Trains?

Duty Manager Trains. CockFosters DepoT...

[snip]

Whilst this was going on, the customers on the stalled train expressed a
desire to get off and continue their journey by other means, which, given
that they had now been sitting there for 45 minutes was not unreasonable.
So we got everyone into the car closest to the platform,

I love that summary of the customers' perspective. Was the driver able to
use announcements for customer communication during the whole of the
incident to this point.

Yes...

cleared any trains between AG and OK, knocked the juice off, SCDs down,

SCD?

Short Circuiting Device, basiclly a big metal bar with a magnet on each end
that you put across the juice rails once TC has been discharged and you want
to move about in a safe area on the track. Should TC be recharged
inadvertantly the SCD causes a circuit breaker to operate which knocks the
juice off again...

discharged TC at 17:15, deployed the jumpers, recharged at 17:20. We

Train Current? "discharged TC" = "switched track power off"?

Traction Current and correct...

then had to let the air on the train build up, moved the train forward the
2 feet required to get it back on juice, knocked the juice back off

0.6m?

Yup...

So, Mr. B, I'm sorry that for you "Normal Crap Service" was resumed, we
didn't do it deliberately and believe it or not some of us do care. If you
want to get a chuckle out of the whole sorry saga, when I said that the
Arnos DMT drove to CK, that man was me, only problem is I had not driven a
car since 1990, so you can comfort yourself with thought that at least one
of the bone idle useless layabouts who work for LU was actually sh*tting
himself.
Is the ability to drive a car part of your job?
Should it not be exercised formally and regularly?

The ability to drive is not actually part of the job description, I hold a
valid driving license, however I don't own a car myself. The vehicle was the
Arnos Grove incident response vehicle (a white and blue Zafiera with
flashing orange lights on the top) which all DMTs are insured to drive. At
the time of the incident I was the only person available to drive it so it
was a case of gird loins, deep breath and off we go. Any spare station staff
floating about were down at Finsbury Park for the footie at Arsenal. In
actual fact, the drive up to Cockfosters was not too bad, nice bright sunny
day and not much traffic. Getting the car back was a bit of a bugger though,
dark, bloody cold and of course I'm trying to get it out of Cockfosters car
park along with god knows how many Gooners following the match at Arsenal.

You are plainly too valuable a member of staff to risk as described.
(Not to mention elfin safety.)

You are too kind...

Could a C.S.A. (Customer Service Assistant) have been your driver?
The 40 minutes you would have had to budget to travel by 298 bus is
probably excessive. A Taxi account would probably be better.
On the other hand, I am sure stress probably affected those dealing with
the situation.

We have a Taxi account, however it would have still taken a good 30-40
minutes to get a cab so the response vehicle was the prefered option.

Disclaimer: All opininions are my own.

2 obvious questions:
1) Was there train operator error?

No...

2) Should jumper availability be reviewed? e.g. Put them in a locked
cupboard with a notice indicating the criteria for opening the cupboard.
The expected return period of such a cost (delay in powering the train)
would have to be balanced against the cost of more availability.

Well personally I think it's a spectacularly dumb idea not to have them
available, but then having spent over two hours freezing my gribblies off up
at Cockfosters on Saturday I suppose I'm biased. Had they been available the
train would have been moving in about 30 minutes rather than 167. I suspect
that cost as much as anything is behind the decision to remove them, they
require periodic testing (not cheap) and any staff using them would need
training and annual refresher training (really not cheap).

Thank you again for a REALLY interesting report.

You're most welcome...
Thanks to Boltar for THIS thread that stimulated your response.

--
Cheers, Steve.
Change jealous to sad to reply.