Mizter T wrote:

To be fair, extending the Poplar/ Bow Church line to Stratford Int'l
would have required some very expensive construction

From Stratford to the nearest end of the International station is only 300
metres. 100 seconds on a travelator has to be better than waiting 10 minutes
for a 30 second ride on a DLR train. Even if you were coming from Canning
Town on a DLR train, changing at Stratford for a 100 second travolator is
hardly a major hardship compared to spending another 30 seconds on the DLR.

wrote :
I'm not claiming an answer either way. But simply stating that everyones
journey is +8 minutes slower isn't right. For myself, at the moment, I'd
prefer the old slower times from Waterloo than faster ones from StPi or
Stratford. From my front door to Paris Thingy du Nord, that would be
easier and probably take about the same time.

Fair point; I'm not arguing.
But the only times that TOCs care about are end-to-end times; London to
Paris matters, Stratford International to Lille (or even Paris) doesn't.

Let's face it, if they really cared about individual passengers, they
wouldn't have invented Ebbsfleet at all, and they'd have kept Waterloo
International open (as, for years, they promised they would).
--

Andrew

Interviewer: Tonight I'm interviewing that famous nurse, Florence
Nightingale
Tommy Cooper (dressed as a nurse): Sir Florence Nightingale
Interviewer: *Sir* Florence Nightingale?
Tommy Cooper: I'm a Night Nurse

Campaign For The Real Tommy Cooper

In message
,
Mizter T writes

So, was Stratford *International* station always a mere sop to garner
support for the CTRL - I dare say that's more or less what Tony Polson
would come up with. The complicating factor in such an analysis is the
plan for the Kent domestic high-speed services

The following, on SouthEastern's website may prove to be rather
revealing:

"The new Stratford station will give access to Docklands. And a new
station at Ebbsfleet will make European travel easy with Eurostar
services."

http://www.southeastern2009.co.uk/index.php/highspeed

No mention of Eurostar transfer at Stratford ...
--
Paul Terry

In message , Paul Terry
writes

http://www.southeastern2009.co.uk/index.php/highspeed

No mention of Eurostar transfer at Stratford ...

And, following up my own post, SouthEastern's 2009 route map on that
same site marks their only Eurostar interchanges as St Pancras,
Ebbsfleet and Ashford.

Stratford International is marked only as an interchange for DLR and LU.
Not that that rules out the possibility ... but it may happen only for a
few weeks in the summer of 2012!
--
Paul Terry

On Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Mr Thant wrote:

On 29 Jan, 14:01, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:
I was actually amazed that they didn't ever even propose to extend the
poplar line through to International;

How would you do this? You can either make a loop to the south and go
through the NLL underpass, but that requires also converting Stratford-
Canning Town to DLR otherwise you won't get permission to close the NLL
in the first place. And if you build that, the connection from the
Poplar line becomes inessential.

Also involves demolishing a swathe through west Stratford. Unless DLR
track is light enough to lay on top of the northern outfall sewer ...

Alternatively you can build a new flyover across the Great Eastern
Main Line if you get out the really big chequebook.

I think that could be managed with the same-sized chequebook as was used
to build the Canning Town branch, or the Woolwich extension. Perhaps even
a smaller one. Certainly a much smaller one than was used to build
Stratford International itself.

Although then you have the question how to get from the flyover to SI
cheaply without spoiling the development land by crossing it at grade.

If you were willing to swap International for Regional, you could take
over or build alongside the spur that links the GEML to the NLL - that
soon connects to the route that is currently planned to take the Canning
Town branch into International. If you wanted both, you have two options:
platforms at the western end of Regional (as now), and then a very tight
(but doable for the DLR) curve into the alignment coming out of the NLL
underpass, or else carry on through Regional and go up the Lea Valley Line
alignment to platforms at the eastern end of International.

But as John says, this is the kind of distance where a travelator makes
more sense than a railway. Or even just a good walking route - it's no
further than the longest interchange at KXSP.

tom

--
Mr. Cadbury's Parrot impressions go down surprisingly well during
lovemaking! -- D

On Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Mr Thant wrote:
I was actually amazed that they didn't ever even propose to extend the
poplar line through to International;
How would you do this? You can either make a loop to the south and go
through the NLL underpass, but that requires also converting Stratford-
Canning Town to DLR otherwise you won't get permission to close the NLL in
the first place. And if you build that, the connection from the Poplar
line becomes inessential.

The current DLR station at Stratford was always a rather tentative affair;
while the serial rebuilding of the three-way junction at
Poplar/Limehouse/WIQ shows us how steep slopes, tight curves and regular
rerouting are not a problem for 'pseudo tram' rail systems.

There's no reason why the DLR could not have been slewed above and across
the current Stratford station, giving easier access from all platforms, and
allowing a through route to the Intl. - and all much cheaper than the
rebuilding that allowed in the Jubilee and rerouted the NLR for the 3rdtime?
(4th? I lose track!).

Can you imagine the Olympic-sized confusion with THREE DLR stations?
Stratford, Stratford and Stratford International (with no international
trains)?

And something with imagination would have been much cheaper than rebuilding
(for the second time) the silly terminus at Tower "Gateway" (stupid station,
stupid name). For almost the same cash, it could have been extended to
Liverpool street (High Level). It'll eventually happen.

That's the joy of light rail; if you planned it badly in the first place, it
doesn't cost an arm and a leg to re-route it.

Look at Lewisham and Woolwich terminals; both couldn't have been designed
better to make extensions either silly or difficult (or both) but by
rerouting from the penultimate curve and/or gradient, (and abandoning the
current terminal stations), either or both could be easily and usefully
extended (and one day will be).

Flying Pigs? ... no; skiing, perhaps. But more likely skateboarding.

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , Paul Terry
writes

http://www.southeastern2009.co.uk/index.php/highspeed

No mention of Eurostar transfer at Stratford ...

And, following up my own post, SouthEastern's 2009 route map on that same
site marks their only Eurostar interchanges as St Pancras, Ebbsfleet and
Ashford.

Stratford International is marked only as an interchange for DLR and LU.
Not that that rules out the possibility ... but it may happen only for a
few weeks in the summer of 2012!

I had heard the opposite - that IF Eurostar were calling at Stratford
International by then, their service would be suspended for the duration of
the games, and the Eurostar platforms temporarily altered for use by the
395s [aka the Olympic Javelin service]...

Paul

On 29 Jan, 15:02, "John Rowland"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

To be fair, extending the Poplar/ Bow Church line to Stratford Int'l
would have required some very expensive construction

From Stratford to the nearest end of the International station is only 300
metres. 100 seconds on a travelator has to be better than waiting 10 minutes
for a 30 second ride on a DLR train. Even if you were coming from Canning
Town on a DLR train, changing at Stratford for a 100 second travolator is
hardly a major hardship compared to spending another 30 seconds on the DLR.

I agree - though I make it more like 400-450 metres, though of course
it depends on where you're measuring from, and I also think the DLR
service is going to be a bit more frequent than that. But as I said,
as to your basic point I agree that the Int'l station really is rather
close to the existing 'Regional' one.

But don't you remember the fuss about the travelator - it was in the
original plans but then got dropped by LCR in 2006 because it was
deemed to expensive. I don't know the details that surround this
however.

Andrew Heenan wrote:

On Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Mr Thant wrote:
I was actually amazed that they didn't ever even propose to extend the
poplar line through to International;

How would you do this? You can either make a loop to the south and go
through the NLL underpass, but that requires also converting Stratford-
Canning Town to DLR otherwise you won't get permission to close the NLL in
the first place. And if you build that, the connection from the Poplar
line becomes inessential.

The current DLR station at Stratford was always a rather tentative affair;
while the serial rebuilding of the three-way junction at
Poplar/Limehouse/WIQ shows us how steep slopes, tight curves and regular
rerouting are not a problem for 'pseudo tram' rail systems.

Current DLR station at Stratford a tentative affair? The one that's
just been rebuilt with two platforms - I don't think that's very
tentative.

Serial rebuilding of Delta Junction? Undergoing its second
modification, which isn't really half as extensive as the first.


There's no reason why the DLR could not have been slewed above and across
the current Stratford station, giving easier access from all platforms, and
allowing a through route to the Intl. - and all much cheaper than the
rebuilding that allowed in the Jubilee and rerouted the NLR for the 3rdtime?
(4th? I lose track!).

AIUI the NLR hasn't been rerouted through Stratford station - it still
follows its original alignment, as can be seen at the north end of the
low-level platforms where you can see the original brickwork of the
bridge/tunnel that carries it under the GEML. It did get moved around
south of Stratford to accommodate the Jubilee line extension, and has
been jiggled around to the north I think.


Can you imagine the Olympic-sized confusion with THREE DLR stations?
Stratford, Stratford and Stratford International (with no international
trains)?

And something with imagination would have been much cheaper than rebuilding
(for the second time) the silly terminus at Tower "Gateway" (stupid station,
stupid name). For almost the same cash, it could have been extended to
Liverpool street (High Level). It'll eventually happen.

Tower Gateway - popular and useful station, I think you mean. Has it
been rebuilt beforehand?


That's the joy of light rail; if you planned it badly in the first place, it
doesn't cost an arm and a leg to re-route it.

I do take your broad point.


Look at Lewisham and Woolwich terminals; both couldn't have been designed
better to make extensions either silly or difficult (or both) but by
rerouting from the penultimate curve and/or gradient, (and abandoning the
current terminal stations), either or both could be easily and usefully
extended (and one day will be).

Hmm... I'm not so sure about that. Bear in mind the fact that the DLR
is a local system, and it only has so much capacity. Granted, the
three-car trains will increase that, but only by so much. I'm not sure
the Lewisham branch can really go anywhere easily - yes, the Hayes
line is the regular suggestion but I don't really think that's that
realistic. At Woolwich I do wonder about the alignment coming into the
terminal - it does rather make suggestions of an extension to
Thamesmead difficult. I am a little curious as to why a further
extension from Woolwichwas seemingly ruled out.

On 29 Jan, 15:08, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:

wrote :

I'm not claiming an answer either way. *But simply stating that everyones
journey is +8 minutes slower isn't right. For myself, at the moment, I'd
prefer the old slower times from Waterloo than faster ones from StPi or
Stratford. From my front door to Paris Thingy du Nord, that would be
easier and probably take about the same time.

Fair point; I'm not arguing.
But the only times that TOCs care about are end-to-end times; London to
Paris matters, Stratford International to Lille (or even Paris) doesn't.

Agree, unless of course Stratford Int'l starts providing a significant
number of passengers, especially if said passengers are paying pricey
first class fares.


Let's face it, if they really cared about individual passengers, they
wouldn't have invented Ebbsfleet at all, and they'd have kept Waterloo
International open (as, for years, they promised they would).

How do you figure that with regards to Ebbsfleet?