Stratford International opening date?
 

Any date fixed yet, does anyone know? There's a tremendous amount of
work going on north of the existing Stratford station, buildings going
up and I think new bridges laid so that you can walk straight to
Stratford International.

First the opening date was 2006, then changed after the Queen
officially opened a station that's still standing empty, although
they've run test trains I understand.

Stratford International opening date?
 

wrote in message
...
Any date fixed yet, does anyone know? There's a tremendous amount of
work going on north of the existing Stratford station, buildings going
up and I think new bridges laid so that you can walk straight to
Stratford International.

Is that the work at the DLR station site, which is north of the main
station?

You would imagine the opening date will be Dec 2009, if the Southeastern
Highspeed services are going to stop there?

Paul S

Stratford International opening date?
 

In message
,
writes

Any date fixed yet, does anyone know?

I imagine it will be 13th December, which is the day that SouthEastern's
high speed service is due to start.
--
Paul Terry

Stratford International opening date?
 

On 29 Jan, 11:41, "Paul Scott" wrote:

wrote:

Any date fixed yet, does anyone know? There's a tremendous amount of
work going on north of the existing Stratford station, buildings going
up and I think new bridges laid so that you can walk straight to
Stratford International.

Is that the work at the DLR station site, which is north of the main
station?

I suspect 'solomonsky' is actually referring to the 'proper'
international station, i.e. the one where Southeastern high-speed and
Eurostar services will stop at.


You would imagine the opening date will be Dec 2009, if the Southeastern
Highspeed services are going to stop there?

DLR Stratford International is 'expected' to open mid-2010.
http://developments.dlr.co.uk/extens...d/whatnext.asp

Peter Masson (at least I think it was he) has posted of how there will
be some kind of minibus link between Stratford Int'l and Stratford
Regional/ the centre of Stratford when the Southeastern service starts
in December '09. Not ideal but better than nowt.

Lots of the building work immediately north of the station is
associated with the new 'Stratford City' development, which will mesh
with the Olympic Park a little bit further north. One will indeed be
able to walk directly between Stratford Regional and Stratford Int'l,
though I think it will be a route that passes lots of retail outlets
of course!

Stratford International opening date?
 

On 29 Jan, 11:55, Paul Terry wrote:

In message
,
writes

Any date fixed yet, does anyone know?

I imagine it will be 13th December, which is the day that SouthEastern's
high speed service is due to start.


I agree. A more intriguing question is when are Eurostar trains going
to begin stopping there? There has been some speculation in the past
that Stratford Int'l might never actually see any Eurostar trains stop
there, and passengers would be herded onto the Southeastern high-speed
trains to get to either Ebbsfleet or St. Pancras. I've pondered this
in the past, but am now of the attitude that they surely will stop
there in the future - it's just a question of when. I'm guessing the
answer lies in good part as to when the surrounding area will look
rather less like a building site.

Stratford International opening date?
 

"Mizter T" wrote ...
A more intriguing question is when are Eurostar trains going
to begin stopping there? There has been some speculation in the past
that Stratford Int'l might never actually see any Eurostar trains stop
there, and passengers would be herded onto the Southeastern high-speed
trains to get to either Ebbsfleet or St. Pancras. I've pondered this
in the past, but am now of the attitude that they surely will stop
there in the future - it's just a question of when. I'm guessing the
answer lies in good part as to when the surrounding area will look
rather less like a building site.

This *very old news* suggests they do not want to stop there -

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1082863.ece

I don't recall any changes in policy since; but that does not mean there
will be none!

I suspect that both Southeastern and Eurostar will be happy with SE ferrying
folk between StP-I - Stratford - Ebbsfleet - Ashford-I, allowing Eurostar to
stop at Ebbsfleet only.

Political pressure seems to have already guaranteed a token service for
Ashford, but Stratford is so close to St. P-I, that it'll take a political
storm to add eight minutes to everyone else's journey.
--
Andrew


If you stand up and be counted,
From time to time you may get yourself knocked down.
But remember this:
A man flattened by an opponent can get up again.
A man flattened by conformity stays down for good.
- Thomas J. Watson Jr.

Stratford International opening date?
 

In message
,
Mizter T writes

There has been some speculation in the past that Stratford Int'l might
never actually see any Eurostar trains stop there, and passengers would
be herded onto the Southeastern high-speed trains to get to either
Ebbsfleet or St. Pancras. I've pondered this in the past, but am now of
the attitude that they surely will stop there in the future - it's just
a question of when.

It's probably more a question of cost - in particular, the cost of
maintaining customs and security staff for international services.
--
Paul Terry

Stratford International opening date?
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

On 29 Jan, 11:55, Paul Terry wrote:

In message
,
writes

Any date fixed yet, does anyone know?

I imagine it will be 13th December, which is the day that SouthEastern's
high speed service is due to start.


I agree. A more intriguing question is when are Eurostar trains going
to begin stopping there? There has been some speculation in the past
that Stratford Int'l might never actually see any Eurostar trains stop
there, and passengers would be herded onto the Southeastern high-speed
trains to get to either Ebbsfleet or St. Pancras. I've pondered this
in the past, but am now of the attitude that they surely will stop
there in the future - it's just a question of when. I'm guessing the
answer lies in good part as to when the surrounding area will look
rather less like a building site.

I don't think Stratford International will ever see more than a token
Eurostar train or two stopping on the way to/from St Pancras. OTOH it makes
a lot of sense to use it as the only London stop if through trains to the
Midlands ever happen. Oh - and I see a pig has just crashed to earth in my
back garden...

Paul

Stratford International opening date?
 

On 29 Jan, 12:52, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote ...

A more intriguing question is when are Eurostar trains going
to begin stopping there? There has been some speculation in the past
that Stratford Int'l might never actually see any Eurostar trains stop
there, and passengers would be herded onto the Southeastern high-speed
trains to get to either Ebbsfleet or St. Pancras. I've pondered this
in the past, but am now of the attitude that they surely will stop
there in the future - it's just a question of when. I'm guessing the
answer lies in good part as to when the surrounding area will look
rather less like a building site.

This *very old news* suggests they do not want to stop there -

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1082863.ece


"[Rob Holden, chief executive of LCR] said that Eurostar had yet to
make a final decision on where its trains would stop but an
announcement would be made in early summer."

No such announcement ever came, did it?


I don't recall any changes in policy since; but that does not mean there
will be none!

I suspect that both Southeastern and Eurostar will be happy with SE ferrying
folk between StP-I - Stratford - Ebbsfleet - Ashford-I, allowing Eurostar to
stop at Ebbsfleet only.

Political pressure seems to have already guaranteed a token service for
Ashford, but Stratford is so close to St. P-I, that it'll take a political
storm to add eight minutes to everyone else's journey.


It's not so much political pressure, more the demand from Docklands-
based business that I think would be significant. Eurostar from
Stratford Int'l is in a sense on a par with London City Airport (LCY)
- stopping Eurostar at Stratford makes it a rather more attractive
option compared to a somewhat disjointed journey via St. Pancras or
Ebbsfleet.

I'm not comparing the relative merits of the services offered by LCY
and Eurostar to and from Paris and Brussels - LCY only offer a handful
of direct flights a day - I'm just saying that grumbles from
businessfolk might have some influence on Eurostar's decision making.
And it's not like every train would have to stop.

I can see it from both sides of this argument, to be honest. Anyway,
we shall see how things pan out...

Stratford International opening date?
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

On 29 Jan, 11:41, "Paul Scott" wrote:

wrote:

Any date fixed yet, does anyone know? There's a tremendous amount of
work going on north of the existing Stratford station, buildings going
up and I think new bridges laid so that you can walk straight to
Stratford International.

Is that the work at the DLR station site, which is north of the main
station?

I suspect 'solomonsky' is actually referring to the 'proper'
international station, i.e. the one where Southeastern high-speed and
Eurostar services will stop at.


Ah right - for some reason I misconstrued that as the existing (ie already
complete) Straftford International station. Sorry to the OP...

Paul S

Stratford International opening date?
 

"Mizter T" wrote :
A more intriguing question is when are Eurostar trains going
to begin stopping there? There has been some speculation in the past
that Stratford Int'l might never actually see any Eurostar trains ...
This *very old news* suggests they do not want to stop there -
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1082863.ece
"[Rob Holden, chief executive of LCR] said that Eurostar had yet to
make a final decision on where its trains would stop but an
announcement would be made in early summer."
No such announcement ever came, did it?

Nope - in fact, I'm 99% sure that not one Eurostar press release since has
even mentioned Stratford International - which doesn't mean that Greater
Forces Won't Prevail - they just might!
--

Andrew

Interviewer: Tonight I'm interviewing that famous nurse, Florence
Nightingale
Tommy Cooper (dressed as a nurse): Sir Florence Nightingale
Interviewer: *Sir* Florence Nightingale?
Tommy Cooper: I'm a Night Nurse

Campaign For The Real Tommy Cooper

Stratford International opening date?
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

It's not so much political pressure, more the demand from Docklands-
based business that I think would be significant. Eurostar from
Stratford Int'l is in a sense on a par with London City Airport (LCY)
- stopping Eurostar at Stratford makes it a rather more attractive
option compared to a somewhat disjointed journey via St. Pancras or
Ebbsfleet.


If only they had extended the Jubilee Line or even the Poplar - Stratford
DLR to International. Too late now though, so it's yet more changing en
route.

Paul S

Stratford International opening date?
 

Andrew Heenan wrote:
Political pressure seems to have already guaranteed a token service for
Ashford, but Stratford is so close to St. P-I, that it'll take a political
storm to add eight minutes to everyone else's journey.

Eight minutes to the journey of passengers alighting at St. P-I, but
compare that against the extra time taken for passengers who prefer
Stratford to get to StPI. To be fair, you'd need to compare likely
passenger preference with estimated delays on both options. Perhaps
even add in issues of station crowding and throughput -- I used e*
from StPI just before Xmas and it was pretty overcrowded just past
the gates in departures.

I'm not claiming an answer either way. But simply stating that everyones
journey is +8 minutes slower isn't right. For myself, at the moment, I'd
prefer the old slower times from Waterloo than faster ones from StPi or
Stratford. From my front door to Paris Thingy du Nord, that would be
easier and probably take about the same time.


#Paul

Stratford International opening date?
 

On 29 Jan, 13:08, Paul Terry wrote:

In message
,
Mizter T writes

There has been some speculation in the past that Stratford Int'l might
never actually see any Eurostar trains stop there, and passengers would
be herded onto the Southeastern high-speed trains to get to either
Ebbsfleet or St. Pancras. I've pondered this in the past, but am now of
the attitude that they surely will stop there in the future - it's just
a question of when.

It's probably more a question of cost - in particular, the cost of
maintaining customs and security staff for international services.



It would also add time - apparently up to eight minutes - to the
overall journey to and from St. Pancras. This thus gives Eurostar a
less attractive headline journey time, which in turn makes it a bit
less attractive to travellers. The question is this is it worthwhile.
The answer from Eurostar is likely to be no, at least not for most
trains - though the market for travellers to and from Stratford (in
particular Docklands business people) might conceivably make it
worthwhile to stop a few, though Eurostar may just as well send them
on to Ebbsfleet on the SE high-speed service and get them to change
onto Eurostar trains there.

Stratford International opening date?
 

"Paul Scott" wrote
I don't think Stratford International will ever see more than a token
Eurostar train or two stopping on the way to/from St Pancras. OTOH it
makes a lot of sense to use it as the only London stop if through trains
to the Midlands ever happen. Oh - and I see a pig has just crashed to
earth in my back garden...

.... or even if they ever build that through line to Heathrow.
Dang! that one just landed in the greenhouse ...
--

Andrew

Stratford International opening date?
 

"Paul Scott" wrote ...
If only they had extended the Jubilee Line or even the Poplar - Stratford
DLR to International. Too late now though, so it's yet more changing en
route.

I was actually amazed that they didn't ever even propose to extend the
poplar line through to International; but it makes sense - as well as
costing money, it would have encouraged those Docklands folk to go there!
--

Andrew

"She plays the tuba.
It is the only instrument capable
of imitating a distress call."

Stratford International opening date?
 

On 29 Jan, 13:08, "Paul Scott" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

On 29 Jan, 11:55, Paul Terry wrote:

In message
,
writes

Any date fixed yet, does anyone know?

I imagine it will be 13th December, which is the day that SouthEastern's
high speed service is due to start.

I agree. A more intriguing question is when are Eurostar trains going
to begin stopping there? There has been some speculation in the past
that Stratford Int'l might never actually see any Eurostar trains stop
there, and passengers would be herded onto the Southeastern high-speed
trains to get to either Ebbsfleet or St. Pancras. I've pondered this
in the past, but am now of the attitude that they surely will stop
there in the future - it's just a question of when. I'm guessing the
answer lies in good part as to when the surrounding area will look
rather less like a building site.

I don't think Stratford International will ever see more than a token
Eurostar train or two stopping on the way to/from St Pancras. OTOH it makes
a lot of sense to use it as the only London stop if through trains to the
Midlands ever happen. *Oh - and I see a pig has just crashed to earth in my
back garden...


Perhaps you're right, quite possibly so in fact. Ignoring political
considerations, it basically depends on whether the perceived market
for international travellers to and from Stratford would make it
worthwhile stopping there. Perhaps there might be a few trains that
stop there timed well for business meetings and the like. The reason
I'm playing on the business angle is that businessfolk like
convenience - the need to go to Ebbsfleet (or St. P) to change and
also jump through the check-in hoops would undoubtedly be a hassle in
comparison to a direct train. Were it not for the check-in palaver
then making use of the SE high-speed trains and interchanging at say
Ebbsfleet would be a more attractive proposition. And as we know, the
check-in requirement isn't about to disappear any time soon.

As you say, in the world of porcine aviation Stratford would make a
good London stop for trains heading to points north.

So, was Stratford *International* station always a mere sop to garner
support for the CTRL - I dare say that's more or less what Tony Polson
would come up with. The complicating factor in such an analysis is the
plan for the Kent domestic high-speed services - I'm a bit hazy on the
background to these plans, I understand that there was always the
potential for them but it was the 1998 CTRL financial restructuring
that led to them being a certainty (basically they were part of the
return for the investment of public money).

Stratford International opening date?
 

On 29 Jan, 14:01, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:
I was actually amazed that they didn't ever even propose to extend the
poplar line through to International;

How would you do this? You can either make a loop to the south and go
through the NLL underpass, but that requires also converting Stratford-
Canning Town to DLR otherwise you won't get permission to close the
NLL in the first place. And if you build that, the connection from the
Poplar line becomes inessential.

Alternatively you can build a new flyover across the Great Eastern
Main Line if you get out the really big chequebook. Although then you
have the question how to get from the flyover to SI cheaply without
spoiling the development land by crossing it at grade.

costing money, it would have encouraged those Docklands folk to go there!

Hooking up a trainless station into the local transport network was
always going to be at the lowest possible cost. The Stratford Canning
Town section of the current scheme has a reasonable cost-benefit ratio
on its own, so the only SI-specific expense is the northern part.

U

Stratford International opening date?
 

On 29 Jan, 14:01, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:

"Paul Scott" wrote ...

If only they had extended the Jubilee Line or even the Poplar -
Stratford
DLR to International. Too late now though, so it's yet more changing en
route.

I was actually amazed that they didn't ever even propose to extend the
poplar line through to International; but it makes sense - as well as
costing money, it would have encouraged those Docklands folk to go there!


Ha!

To be fair, extending the Poplar/ Bow Church line to Stratford Int'l would
have required some very expensive construction - for a start, it's along a
totally wrong alignment coming into Stratford Regional station. Pondering on
potential plans that would've resulted in the line serving both Stratford
Regional and International stations leads one to some fairly outlandish
plans. I suppose the get-out answer is to say that the Poplar line could
have descended into a tunnel after Pudding Mill Lane, served Stratford
Regional station from new underground platforms, then proceeded to Stratford
International. Rather easier said than done, me thinks!

The other factor is that the 'Stratford International Extension' meshed
almost perfectly with the plan to take over the alignment of the North
London Line between Canning Town and Stratford. But I don't think it's a
simple case of the DLR planners simply tagging on Stratford Int'l to their
plans so as to make it more attractive - the DLR is, after all, a local
railway, it's raison d'etre is not in providing immaculate connections
between a prospective international terminal and a business district. I'm
sure it would have done so were that the masterplan handed down and paid for
from above, but the DLR isn't in the business of lobbying for such things.

The other thing to bear in mind is that whilst Stratford Int'l is currently
in the midst of a building site, eventually those buildings will, er, become
built! The new DLR station will be well placed to serve the new Stratford
City and Olympic Park developments - it's not just about connecting in with
high-speed services (domestic and possibly international) from Stratford
Int'l station. And of course it'll improve local transport facilities no end
for people between Canning Town and Stratford.

Stratford International opening date?
 

On 29 Jan, 13:37, wrote:

Andrew Heenan wrote:
Political pressure seems to have already guaranteed a token service for
Ashford, but Stratford is so close to St. P-I, that it'll take a
political
storm to add eight minutes to everyone else's journey.

Eight minutes to the journey of passengers alighting at St. P-I, but
compare that against the extra time taken for passengers who prefer
Stratford to get to StPI. To be fair, you'd need to compare likely
passenger preference with estimated delays on both options. Perhaps
even add in issues of station crowding and throughput -- I used e*
from StPI just before Xmas and it was pretty overcrowded just past
the gates in departures.

I'm not claiming an answer either way. But simply stating that everyones
journey is +8 minutes slower isn't right. For myself, at the moment, I'd
prefer the old slower times from Waterloo than faster ones from StPi or
Stratford. From my front door to Paris Thingy du Nord, that would be
easier and probably take about the same time.

#Paul


A well put point. The counter to this argument would be to say that people
would be able to access Eurostar services from Stratford, they'd just need
to use the Southeastern high-speed service to get to Ebbsfleet or St. P and
change. Of course that would then come back round to your argument about it
being less convenient for some people. It's all about the potential market
of travellers from Stratford Int'l really - if it is big enough, then some
Eurostar trains will surely stop there I would have thought.

Stratford International opening date?
 

Mizter T wrote:

To be fair, extending the Poplar/ Bow Church line to Stratford Int'l
would have required some very expensive construction

From Stratford to the nearest end of the International station is only 300
metres. 100 seconds on a travelator has to be better than waiting 10 minutes
for a 30 second ride on a DLR train. Even if you were coming from Canning
Town on a DLR train, changing at Stratford for a 100 second travolator is
hardly a major hardship compared to spending another 30 seconds on the DLR.

Stratford International opening date?
 

wrote :
I'm not claiming an answer either way. But simply stating that everyones
journey is +8 minutes slower isn't right. For myself, at the moment, I'd
prefer the old slower times from Waterloo than faster ones from StPi or
Stratford. From my front door to Paris Thingy du Nord, that would be
easier and probably take about the same time.

Fair point; I'm not arguing.
But the only times that TOCs care about are end-to-end times; London to
Paris matters, Stratford International to Lille (or even Paris) doesn't.

Let's face it, if they really cared about individual passengers, they
wouldn't have invented Ebbsfleet at all, and they'd have kept Waterloo
International open (as, for years, they promised they would).
--

Andrew

Interviewer: Tonight I'm interviewing that famous nurse, Florence
Nightingale
Tommy Cooper (dressed as a nurse): Sir Florence Nightingale
Interviewer: *Sir* Florence Nightingale?
Tommy Cooper: I'm a Night Nurse

Campaign For The Real Tommy Cooper

Stratford International opening date?
 

In message
,
Mizter T writes

So, was Stratford *International* station always a mere sop to garner
support for the CTRL - I dare say that's more or less what Tony Polson
would come up with. The complicating factor in such an analysis is the
plan for the Kent domestic high-speed services

The following, on SouthEastern's website may prove to be rather
revealing:

"The new Stratford station will give access to Docklands. And a new
station at Ebbsfleet will make European travel easy with Eurostar
services."

http://www.southeastern2009.co.uk/index.php/highspeed

No mention of Eurostar transfer at Stratford ...
--
Paul Terry

Stratford International opening date?
 

In message , Paul Terry
writes

http://www.southeastern2009.co.uk/index.php/highspeed

No mention of Eurostar transfer at Stratford ...

And, following up my own post, SouthEastern's 2009 route map on that
same site marks their only Eurostar interchanges as St Pancras,
Ebbsfleet and Ashford.

Stratford International is marked only as an interchange for DLR and LU.
Not that that rules out the possibility ... but it may happen only for a
few weeks in the summer of 2012!
--
Paul Terry

Stratford International opening date?
 

On Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Mr Thant wrote:

On 29 Jan, 14:01, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:
I was actually amazed that they didn't ever even propose to extend the
poplar line through to International;

How would you do this? You can either make a loop to the south and go
through the NLL underpass, but that requires also converting Stratford-
Canning Town to DLR otherwise you won't get permission to close the NLL
in the first place. And if you build that, the connection from the
Poplar line becomes inessential.

Also involves demolishing a swathe through west Stratford. Unless DLR
track is light enough to lay on top of the northern outfall sewer ...

Alternatively you can build a new flyover across the Great Eastern
Main Line if you get out the really big chequebook.

I think that could be managed with the same-sized chequebook as was used
to build the Canning Town branch, or the Woolwich extension. Perhaps even
a smaller one. Certainly a much smaller one than was used to build
Stratford International itself.

Although then you have the question how to get from the flyover to SI
cheaply without spoiling the development land by crossing it at grade.

If you were willing to swap International for Regional, you could take
over or build alongside the spur that links the GEML to the NLL - that
soon connects to the route that is currently planned to take the Canning
Town branch into International. If you wanted both, you have two options:
platforms at the western end of Regional (as now), and then a very tight
(but doable for the DLR) curve into the alignment coming out of the NLL
underpass, or else carry on through Regional and go up the Lea Valley Line
alignment to platforms at the eastern end of International.

But as John says, this is the kind of distance where a travelator makes
more sense than a railway. Or even just a good walking route - it's no
further than the longest interchange at KXSP.

tom

--
Mr. Cadbury's Parrot impressions go down surprisingly well during
lovemaking! -- D

Stratford International opening date?
 

On Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Mr Thant wrote:
I was actually amazed that they didn't ever even propose to extend the
poplar line through to International;
How would you do this? You can either make a loop to the south and go
through the NLL underpass, but that requires also converting Stratford-
Canning Town to DLR otherwise you won't get permission to close the NLL in
the first place. And if you build that, the connection from the Poplar
line becomes inessential.

The current DLR station at Stratford was always a rather tentative affair;
while the serial rebuilding of the three-way junction at
Poplar/Limehouse/WIQ shows us how steep slopes, tight curves and regular
rerouting are not a problem for 'pseudo tram' rail systems.

There's no reason why the DLR could not have been slewed above and across
the current Stratford station, giving easier access from all platforms, and
allowing a through route to the Intl. - and all much cheaper than the
rebuilding that allowed in the Jubilee and rerouted the NLR for the 3rdtime?
(4th? I lose track!).

Can you imagine the Olympic-sized confusion with THREE DLR stations?
Stratford, Stratford and Stratford International (with no international
trains)?

And something with imagination would have been much cheaper than rebuilding
(for the second time) the silly terminus at Tower "Gateway" (stupid station,
stupid name). For almost the same cash, it could have been extended to
Liverpool street (High Level). It'll eventually happen.

That's the joy of light rail; if you planned it badly in the first place, it
doesn't cost an arm and a leg to re-route it.

Look at Lewisham and Woolwich terminals; both couldn't have been designed
better to make extensions either silly or difficult (or both) but by
rerouting from the penultimate curve and/or gradient, (and abandoning the
current terminal stations), either or both could be easily and usefully
extended (and one day will be).

Flying Pigs? ... no; skiing, perhaps. But more likely skateboarding.

Stratford International opening date?
 

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , Paul Terry
writes

http://www.southeastern2009.co.uk/index.php/highspeed

No mention of Eurostar transfer at Stratford ...

And, following up my own post, SouthEastern's 2009 route map on that same
site marks their only Eurostar interchanges as St Pancras, Ebbsfleet and
Ashford.

Stratford International is marked only as an interchange for DLR and LU.
Not that that rules out the possibility ... but it may happen only for a
few weeks in the summer of 2012!

I had heard the opposite - that IF Eurostar were calling at Stratford
International by then, their service would be suspended for the duration of
the games, and the Eurostar platforms temporarily altered for use by the
395s [aka the Olympic Javelin service]...

Paul

Stratford International opening date?
 

On 29 Jan, 15:02, "John Rowland"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

To be fair, extending the Poplar/ Bow Church line to Stratford Int'l
would have required some very expensive construction

From Stratford to the nearest end of the International station is only 300
metres. 100 seconds on a travelator has to be better than waiting 10 minutes
for a 30 second ride on a DLR train. Even if you were coming from Canning
Town on a DLR train, changing at Stratford for a 100 second travolator is
hardly a major hardship compared to spending another 30 seconds on the DLR.

I agree - though I make it more like 400-450 metres, though of course
it depends on where you're measuring from, and I also think the DLR
service is going to be a bit more frequent than that. But as I said,
as to your basic point I agree that the Int'l station really is rather
close to the existing 'Regional' one.

But don't you remember the fuss about the travelator - it was in the
original plans but then got dropped by LCR in 2006 because it was
deemed to expensive. I don't know the details that surround this
however.

Stratford International opening date?
 

Andrew Heenan wrote:

On Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Mr Thant wrote:
I was actually amazed that they didn't ever even propose to extend the
poplar line through to International;

How would you do this? You can either make a loop to the south and go
through the NLL underpass, but that requires also converting Stratford-
Canning Town to DLR otherwise you won't get permission to close the NLL in
the first place. And if you build that, the connection from the Poplar
line becomes inessential.

The current DLR station at Stratford was always a rather tentative affair;
while the serial rebuilding of the three-way junction at
Poplar/Limehouse/WIQ shows us how steep slopes, tight curves and regular
rerouting are not a problem for 'pseudo tram' rail systems.

Current DLR station at Stratford a tentative affair? The one that's
just been rebuilt with two platforms - I don't think that's very
tentative.

Serial rebuilding of Delta Junction? Undergoing its second
modification, which isn't really half as extensive as the first.


There's no reason why the DLR could not have been slewed above and across
the current Stratford station, giving easier access from all platforms, and
allowing a through route to the Intl. - and all much cheaper than the
rebuilding that allowed in the Jubilee and rerouted the NLR for the 3rdtime?
(4th? I lose track!).

AIUI the NLR hasn't been rerouted through Stratford station - it still
follows its original alignment, as can be seen at the north end of the
low-level platforms where you can see the original brickwork of the
bridge/tunnel that carries it under the GEML. It did get moved around
south of Stratford to accommodate the Jubilee line extension, and has
been jiggled around to the north I think.


Can you imagine the Olympic-sized confusion with THREE DLR stations?
Stratford, Stratford and Stratford International (with no international
trains)?

And something with imagination would have been much cheaper than rebuilding
(for the second time) the silly terminus at Tower "Gateway" (stupid station,
stupid name). For almost the same cash, it could have been extended to
Liverpool street (High Level). It'll eventually happen.

Tower Gateway - popular and useful station, I think you mean. Has it
been rebuilt beforehand?


That's the joy of light rail; if you planned it badly in the first place, it
doesn't cost an arm and a leg to re-route it.

I do take your broad point.


Look at Lewisham and Woolwich terminals; both couldn't have been designed
better to make extensions either silly or difficult (or both) but by
rerouting from the penultimate curve and/or gradient, (and abandoning the
current terminal stations), either or both could be easily and usefully
extended (and one day will be).

Hmm... I'm not so sure about that. Bear in mind the fact that the DLR
is a local system, and it only has so much capacity. Granted, the
three-car trains will increase that, but only by so much. I'm not sure
the Lewisham branch can really go anywhere easily - yes, the Hayes
line is the regular suggestion but I don't really think that's that
realistic. At Woolwich I do wonder about the alignment coming into the
terminal - it does rather make suggestions of an extension to
Thamesmead difficult. I am a little curious as to why a further
extension from Woolwichwas seemingly ruled out.

Stratford International opening date?
 

On 29 Jan, 15:08, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:

wrote :

I'm not claiming an answer either way. *But simply stating that everyones
journey is +8 minutes slower isn't right. For myself, at the moment, I'd
prefer the old slower times from Waterloo than faster ones from StPi or
Stratford. From my front door to Paris Thingy du Nord, that would be
easier and probably take about the same time.

Fair point; I'm not arguing.
But the only times that TOCs care about are end-to-end times; London to
Paris matters, Stratford International to Lille (or even Paris) doesn't.

Agree, unless of course Stratford Int'l starts providing a significant
number of passengers, especially if said passengers are paying pricey
first class fares.


Let's face it, if they really cared about individual passengers, they
wouldn't have invented Ebbsfleet at all, and they'd have kept Waterloo
International open (as, for years, they promised they would).

How do you figure that with regards to Ebbsfleet?

Stratford International opening date?
 

On 29 Jan, 17:36, "Paul Scott" wrote:

"Paul Terry" wrote:

In message , Paul Terry
writes

http://www.southeastern2009.co.uk/index.php/highspeed

No mention of Eurostar transfer at Stratford ...

And, following up my own post, SouthEastern's 2009 route map on that same
site marks their only Eurostar interchanges as St Pancras, Ebbsfleet and
Ashford.

Stratford International is marked only as an interchange for DLR and LU.
Not that that rules out the possibility ... but it may happen only for a
few weeks in the summer of 2012!

I had heard the opposite - that IF Eurostar were calling at Stratford
International by then, their service would be suspended for the duration of
the games, and the Eurostar platforms temporarily altered for use by the
395s [aka the Olympic Javelin service]...


That indeed is the plan - there will be *no* Southeastern high-speed
or Eurostar services (if indeed they ever call) calling at Stratford
Int'l during the period of the Games (I think it'd be the two weeks
plus some time either side). During that time you'll *only* be able to
catch the Javelin service from Stratford Int'l which will call at
Ebbsfleet and St. Pancras.

Stratford International opening date?
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

...... During that time you'll *only* be able to
catch the Javelin service from Stratford Int'l which will call at
Ebbsfleet and St. Pancras.

Run by the local Olympic Games escape commitee then?

:-)

Paul

Stratford International opening date?
 

"Mizter T" wrote ...
Let's face it, if they really cared about individual passengers, they
wouldn't have invented Ebbsfleet at all, and they'd have kept Waterloo
International open (as, for years, they promised they would).
How do you figure that with regards to Ebbsfleet?

Assuming Waterloo Intl. was still open, and Ebbsfleet did not exist, who
would be saying "Hey, we need another huge station right around half a mile
from Northfleet"?

No-one, so far as I can see. All the Kentish folk could as easily get to
Ashford (just as they are now being told "You can as easily get to
Ebbsfleet").

And all the London folk could take public transport to W'Loo, St.P, Strtf;
How very green of them.

I remember thinking, when first heard of Ebbsfleet "Where The H___ did that
come from?".

Question never got properly answered; especially as Ebbsfleet International
is at Northfleet, while Ebbsfleet is in Thanet.

It's loopy, and a trick to serve M25 folk who should (and could) be taking
the train.

Granted, it'll be handy to get from StP to Northfleet to watch Ebbsfleet(!)
play football - else it's pretty pointless.
--

Andrew

"If A is success in life, then A = x + y + z.
Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut." ~ Albert Einstein

Stratford International opening date?
 

On 29 Jan, 16:38, Paul Terry wrote:

In message , Paul Terry
writes

http://www.southeastern2009.co.uk/index.php/highspeed

No mention of Eurostar transfer at Stratford ...

And, following up my own post, SouthEastern's 2009 route map on that
same site marks their only Eurostar interchanges as St Pancras,
Ebbsfleet and Ashford.


Though that is the *2009* route map, it doesn't mean it will be the
case forevermore. The SE high-speed trains will apparently stop at
Stratford Int'l from day one of the service in December, but Stratford
Int'l won't exactly be an ideal destination by then - it'll be in the
middle of a building site, the DLR extension isn't due to open until
mid-2010 (it could be finished early, but I'd wager it won't be ready
*that* early), and AIUI passengers will be ferried between Stratford
Int'l and the bus station at Stratford Regional by minibus. If
Eurostar did ever wish/ were ever made to stop their trains at
Stratford Int'l, they certainly wouldn't do so until the station was
no longer in the midst of a building site, or at least until it had
proper road access - and I think the main road access will be to the
west, off Waterden Road (currently inaccessible within the closed off
Olympic Park site).

Indeed I dare say that it may not be considered appropriate to stop
Eurostar trains at Stratford until after the Olympics are finished.

Stratford International opening date?
 

"Mizter T" wrote
Indeed I dare say that it may not be considered appropriate to stop
Eurostar trains at Stratford until after the Olympics are finished.

I suspect 'until after hell freezes over' would be the slight preference of
our friends at Eurostar, but they may be denied their preference!


--

Andrew

Stratford International opening date?
 

On Jan 29, 7:21*pm, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:
I remember thinking, when *first heard of Ebbsfleet "Where The H___ did that
come from?".

Question never got properly answered; especially as Ebbsfleet International
is at Northfleet, while Ebbsfleet is in Thanet.

It's loopy, and a trick to serve M25 folk who should (and could) be taking
the train.

Radial public transport in Surrey/Sussex/Kent is utterly rubbish.
Guildford to Gatwick is just about acceptable; but aside from that,
nearly everyone in S/S/K drives to Gatwick or Heathrow rather than
deal with the massive faff of local connections.

You might suggest that a new rail link should have worthy aspirations
of changing that behaviour, and encouraging people to take the slow
train from Redhill to Ashford rather than the convenient drive to
Ebbsfleet. The trouble is, passengers would disagree, and would go by
plane instead.

(that said, Ebbsfleet should've been properly integrated with
Northfleet station, and should certainly be made the southeastern
terminus for Crossrail).

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Stratford International opening date?
 

In message
, at
11:08:54 on Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Mizter T remarked:
That indeed is the plan - there will be *no* Southeastern high-speed
or Eurostar services (if indeed they ever call) calling at Stratford
Int'l during the period of the Games (I think it'd be the two weeks
plus some time either side).

Don't forget the Paralympics, which stretches the whole thing out a bit,
unless the special arrangements aren't need those weeks.

29th Aug-9th Sept (the games having started on 27th July).
--
Roland Perry

Stratford International opening date?
 

On 29 Jan, 21:25, Roland Perry wrote:

In message
, at
11:08:54 on Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Mizter T remarked:

That indeed is the plan - there will be *no* Southeastern high-speed
or Eurostar services (if indeed they ever call) calling at Stratford
Int'l during the period of the Games (I think it'd be the two weeks
plus some time either side).

Don't forget the Paralympics, which stretches the whole thing out a bit,
unless the special arrangements aren't need those weeks.

29th Aug-9th Sept (the games having started on 27th July).


I hadn't forgotten them, but I don't think the special Javelin
arrangements will apply then, the Paralympics being a somewhat less
high-profile event with fewer spectators (not to do it down or
anything - I approve fully of them - that's just the reality). Also,
what with it stretching into the beginning of September, the commuters
of Kent will likely want their class 395 trains back! Indeed I can
already foresee the complaints that they'll have them taken away for a
few weeks (at least two) - perhaps every SE high-speed season ticket
holder should be made to sign a memorandum of understanding that this
is the plan!

Obviously the special transport plans will encompass the Paralympics
as well, just in a slightly reduced form. Perhaps there will be extra
395 Javelin shuttle services during the day, with a reduced off-peak
Kent service to accommodate this. There's an enormous amount of
documentation on the London 2012 site so perhaps rather than guessing
I'll go and try to find out... ;-)

Stratford International opening date?
 

In message
, at
14:41:30 on Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Mizter T remarked:
the commuters of Kent will likely want their class 395 trains back!
Indeed I can already foresee the complaints that they'll have them
taken away for a few weeks (at least two)

I rather suspect that everyone not intimately connected with the running
of the games will be best off sat at home for that fortnight, and not
trying to swim against the various tides.
--
Roland Perry

Stratford International opening date?
 

On 30 Jan, 08:32, Roland Perry wrote:

In message
, at
14:41:30 on Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Mizter T remarked:

the commuters of Kent will likely want their class 395 trains back!
Indeed I can already foresee the complaints that they'll have them
taken away for a few weeks (at least two)

I rather suspect that everyone not intimately connected with the running
of the games will be best off sat at home for that fortnight, and not
trying to swim against the various tides.

I wouldn't say that spectators aren't "intimately connected with the
running of the games" but I don't think they'd do very well at all
sitting at home for that fortnight.

I understand broadly where you're coming from but I there'll be plenty
of stuff going on in London during those two weeks that will be
attracting the crowds, both Olympic events and associated happenings -
people will be coming into and travelling around London to get to
these places.

What is the case is that the transport plans are predicated on there
being fewer regular commuters - but this is hardly a ridiculous
presumption as that's always what happens during the summer. I
understand at least part of the expectation is that people who may
otherwise have gone off elsewhere on holiday will stay around in
London to watch the show.

What will be the case is that those who regularly make use of the Kent
high-speed service to get into London will find that it won't be
running at all during that fortnight (or however long i will be). If
they're coming into London for work or leisure they'll obviously have
to do so on the slower, 'classic' services. There will be moans, but
many will travel by slower 'classic' train anyway. And others in Kent
will make use of the park & ride arrangements at Ebbsfleet or possibly
arrive there by bus or coach for onward transport to Stratford and the
Olympic Park on the Javelin service.

I'm sure there'll be problems but I don't think there'll be transport
meltdown, especially if people are herded towards St. Pancras for the
Javelin service. It'll be interesting to see how people will be
dissuaded from using the Jubilee and Central lines to get to Stratford
from central London.