http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ansport-london

Dearie me, what a grade A plank.

Reduces dwell times for buses (massively) and reduces the opportunity
for drivers to pocket cash, stops you needing to fumble for change at
the ticket machine, and is just generally A GOOD IDEA.

But no, you think you're being watched by MI5. (like they've nothing
better to do.)

"Martin Petrov" wrote in message
...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ansport-london

Dearie me, what a grade A plank.

Reduces dwell times for buses (massively) and reduces the opportunity
for drivers to pocket cash, stops you needing to fumble for change at
the ticket machine, and is just generally A GOOD IDEA.

But no, you think you're being watched by MI5. (like they've nothing
better to do.)

Yes I have an Oyster but there are times when I have to seriously consider
whether it would be better to buy a daily travel card when I need it. It's
so easy to forget to touch in and out, particularly when you are waved
through by station staff because the machine is not working properly or
because there is congestion. I've now been told that they won't refund any
more to my card unless machines are not working. Then you have to phone the
oyster helpline, usually more than once, and then they don't refund the
correct amount. There are also lines that are not part of the oyster network
even though they serve stations that are. So you find yourself touching in
and there is nowhere to touch out at the other end. And it seems quite a
good idea to be able to enter by either door on a bus. But you can only do
that on some buses. The system needs streamlining. It's too much to expect
someone has to learn a different set of rules for different stations, lines
and modes of transport. You touch in and out on trains but not on buses.
What do I do if I'm on the platform of a station without barriers and can't
remember if I touched in? And when I have to abort a journey due to "severe
delays", there is fat chance of getting my money back. The Oyster has
disadvantages as well as advantages.

pg123 wrote:
It's too much to expect someone has to learn a
different set of rules for different stations, lines and modes of
transport.

What, two sets of rules? If it's a train, touch in/touch out, if it's a
bus or tram, touch in. Given the complexities of modern life anyone who
can operate a remote control should have no difficulty there. My five
year old manages it fine.

You touch in and out on trains but not on buses. What do I do
if I'm on the platform of a station without barriers and can't remember
if I touched in?

What about it? There's a very minor price to pay for the convenience,
and it's in actually learning the rather simple way the system operates.
I'd love that kind of problem at my local SWT station where I'm more
likely to be worrying if the ticket machine is working or if there's
sufficient time to get a ticket before the next train. The mere
requirement to remember to touch in is far less hassle.

And when I have to abort a journey due to "severe
delays", there is fat chance of getting my money back. The Oyster has
disadvantages as well as advantages.

No worthwhile improvement has no downsides. Railways themselves had
plenty of negative press in the early days, but after a while no one
talks seriously about the mortal dangers of a velocity of 30mph or more
being attained. Then there's the success of the underground despite the
original one being quite unpleasantly smoky. People put up with it and
it improved over time. The bendy bus debate is stuck in 2005 for the
same reason - in 2009 they're a settled, integral part of the transport
system. So are Oyster cards.

Tom

"Tom Barry" wrote in message
...
pg123 wrote:
It's too much to expect someone has to learn a different set of rules for
different stations, lines and modes of transport.

What, two sets of rules? If it's a train, touch in/touch out, if it's a
bus or tram, touch in.

Depends on the train. Some stations have Oyster machines but you're not
supposed to use them.

Given the complexities of modern life anyone who
can operate a remote control should have no difficulty there. My five
year old manages it fine.

You touch in and out on trains but not on buses. What do I do if I'm on
the platform of a station without barriers and can't remember if I
touched in?

What about it? There's a very minor price to pay for the convenience, and
it's in actually learning the rather simple way the system operates. I'd
love that kind of problem at my local SWT station where I'm more likely to
be worrying if the ticket machine is working or if there's sufficient time
to get a ticket before the next train. The mere requirement to remember
to touch in is far less hassle.

And when I have to abort a journey due to "severe
delays", there is fat chance of getting my money back. The Oyster has
disadvantages as well as advantages.

No worthwhile improvement has no downsides. Railways themselves had
plenty of negative press in the early days, but after a while no one talks
seriously about the mortal dangers of a velocity of 30mph or more being
attained. Then there's the success of the underground despite the
original one being quite unpleasantly smoky. People put up with it and it
improved over time. The bendy bus debate is stuck in 2005 for the same
reason - in 2009 they're a settled, integral part of the transport system.
So are Oyster cards.

Tom

"Martin Petrov" wrote ...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ansport-london
Dearie me, what a grade A plank.
Reduces dwell times for buses (massively) and reduces the opportunity
for drivers to pocket cash, stops you needing to fumble for change at
the ticket machine, and is just generally A GOOD IDEA.
But no, you think you're being watched by MI5. (like they've nothing
better to do.)

If I ran the buses, you'd be expected to touch in AND out on them too - much
better info for service planning.

Mind you, I was on a Bendie (73) one day; I hadn't touched in, though I
usually do, as I had my arms full of junk - I saw a seat and dived for it.

Ticket Inspector: You haven't touched in
Me: I didn't think I had to - it's a Gold Card
Ticket Inspector No, You don't *have* to.
Me: {Quizzical look}
Ticket Inspector: But if you were kidnapped, we'd be able to trace your
last movements
Me: Thanks. (Wonders: was that really an inspector,
or was it a tin foil hat person in disguise?)

I also wonder what Guardian Man has to fear; as well as giving honest men
nightmares (as if!), Oyster can help in catching crims. And has done. Oyster
and cameras are a great combination. Did I say CAMERAS? Oh my God! Cameras!
Closed circuit! MI5/6/7 ... 43

And, like the bendies, the advantages of Oyster would only be visible after
it was banned - thousands more ticket office jobs in a difficult time - but
fares raised to cover them; much slower buses (imagine the 38/73 congestion
at Angel every morning as drivers have to look at every ticket).

No wonder the Guardian is losing readers every year.

--
Andrew

"When 'Do no Evil' has been understood, then learn the harder, braver rule,
Do Good." ~ Arthur Guiterman

No wonder the Guardian is losing readers every year.

Note - it's a "comment" in the newspaper, rather than an editorial or
some such. My posting it didn't have a Guardian bashing agenda, nor
should it be used for one (IMHO).

On 3 Feb, 14:45, "pg123" wrote:

"Martin Petrov" wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ter-card-trans...

Dearie me, what a grade A plank.

Reduces dwell times for buses (massively) and reduces the opportunity
for drivers to pocket cash, stops you needing to fumble for change at
the ticket machine, and is just generally A GOOD IDEA.

But no, you think you're being watched by MI5. (like they've nothing
better to do.)

Yes I have an Oyster but there are times when I have to seriously consider
whether it would be better to buy a daily travel card when I need it.

You do that then - I'll stick with using Oyster Pay-as-you-go when I'm
not using the suburban rail network thanks, as I may well not make
enough journeys during the day to reach a daily cap - if I bought a
Day Travelcard (even setting aside the fact that they are 50p more
that the Oyster daily cap) then I might well be paying more than I
need to.


It's
so easy to forget to touch in and out, particularly when you are waved
through by station staff because the machine is not working properly or
because there is congestion.

I rarely see an Oyster reader not working - the times I have seen this
it's been one on automatic gates and there has been a sign on the
reader stating it is out of order (it seems rather more common for the
paper ticket bit to be broken). I've seen it a bit more often on buses
but then it doesn't matter, not to the passenger at least, as you get
a free ride. I don't think I've ever seen a standalone Oyster reader
(i.e. one not on a gate) that isn't working.

Could you elaborate on where you've been waved through "waved through
by station staff because the machine is not working properly"? Did you
check if the Oyster reader on the gates was active? It almost
certainly would have been.

When there is congestion then it's wise for the gates to be opened,
but again the Oyster readers stay active. I go quite often to watch
Arsenal games and pass through Highbury & Islington station en route,
and often after a match the gates are left open but Oyster-using
passengers are advised (regularly by the staff) to touch-in on the
reader on the gate.


I've now been told that they won't refund any
more to my card unless machines are not working. Then you have to phone the
oyster helpline, usually more than once, and then they don't refund the
correct amount. There are also lines that are not part of the oyster network
even though they serve stations that are. So you find yourself touching in
and there is nowhere to touch out at the other end.

That's not TfL's fault though - they and their master the Mayor (and
indeed the previous Mayor) want all rail lines in London to accept
Oyster PAYG, but progress on this has been slow because the train
companies have been very awkward.

You should check whether the rail route you want to use accepts Oyster
PAYG before you travel. There's a page on the TfL website that
outlines where it is valid and there's a map that illustrates this too
- the page is he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx


And it seems quite a good idea to be able to enter by either door
on a bus. But you can only do that on some buses.

Long single decker bendy bus with an articulated bit in the middle -
any door. All other types of bus - front door only (apart from the
heritage Routemasters). Really simple.

I think the new double-deckers on the Red Arrow routes in central
London (weekday only routes that link termini stations) might allow
boarding via all doors. If so I presume this will be clearly indicated
and it will only apply to a minuscule subset of buses.


The system needs streamlining. It's too much to expect
someone has to learn a different set of rules for different stations, lines
and modes of transport.

No it's not, but if it's too much for you then buy a Day Travelcard.
If you wanted it streamlined so you didn't need to touch-out after
completing a journey, that would entail a flat-fare scheme across
London. That's unlikely enough as it is on the Underground network,
and it's never going to be the case on the suburban rail network too.

You touch in and out on trains but not on buses.

Too much to expect someone to learn eh? Really?

By the way, if you try and touch-in (or out) a second time on the bus
you'll just get an error beep, you won't be charged a second fare.
Having a system whereby you touch out on buses would lead to a myriad
of complications - it does happen in some places, but I don't think
it'd work at all well here.


What do I do if I'm on the platform of a station without barriers and can't
remember if I touched in? And when I have to abort a journey due to "severe
delays", there is fat chance of getting my money back.

No there isn't - this is routinely done by Oyster customer services.


The Oyster has disadvantages as well as advantages.

Doesn't mean it's rubbish. Of course it's going to be different from
paper tickets - but that's in the nature of smartcard ticketing.

On 3 Feb, 15:16, "pg123" wrote:

"Tom Barry" wrote:

pg123 wrote:
It's too much to expect someone has to learn a different set of rules for
different stations, lines and modes of transport.

What, two sets of rules? *If it's a train, touch in/touch out, if it's a
bus or tram, touch in.

Depends on the train. Some stations have Oyster machines but you're not
supposed to use them.

?!

If you're speaking about stations that are served by some lines that
accept Oyster PAYG and some that don't, then on the lines that don't
accept it the rule quite clearly is that you *don't* use it for that
journey. If you do then the train operator won't get any money for the
journey you make, and you will be travelling without having paid the
correct fare (you will instead have paid a quasi-penalty fare to TfL,
but that won't go to the train company).

Where it is and isn't accepted is detailed he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx

On 3 Feb, 15:38, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:

"Martin Petrov" wrote ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ter-card-trans....
Dearie me, what a grade A plank.
Reduces dwell times for buses (massively) and reduces the opportunity
for drivers to pocket cash, stops you needing to fumble for change at
the ticket machine, and is just generally A GOOD IDEA.
But no, you think you're being watched by MI5. (like they've nothing
better to do.)

If I ran the buses, you'd be expected to touch in AND out on them too - much
better info for service planning.

Don't think that would work remotely well in London whatsoever. We had
a really interesting discussion about this back in January '08 in a
thread entitled "Oyster PAYG and differential bus fares" with


Mind you, I was on a Bendie (73) one day; I hadn't touched in, though I
usually do, as I had my arms full of junk - I saw a seat and dived for it..

Ticket Inspector: * * You haven't touched in
Me: * * * * * * * * * * * *I didn't think I had to - it's a Gold Card
Ticket Inspector * *No, You don't *have* to.
Me: * * * * * * * * * * * {Quizzical look}
Ticket Inspector: * *But if you were kidnapped, we'd be able to trace your
last movements
Me: * * * * * * * * * * * *Thanks. (Wonders: was that really an inspector,
or was it a tin foil hat person in disguise?)

I also wonder what Guardian Man has to fear; as well as giving honest men
nightmares (as if!), Oyster can help in catching crims. And has done. Oyster
and cameras are a great combination. Did I say CAMERAS? Oh my God! Cameras!
Closed circuit! MI5/6/7 ... 43

And, like the bendies, the advantages of Oyster would only be visible after
it was banned - thousands more ticket office *jobs in a difficult time - but
fares raised to cover them; much slower buses (imagine the 38/73 congestion
at Angel every morning as drivers have to look at every ticket).

No wonder the Guardian is losing readers every year.

--
Andrew

"When 'Do no Evil' has been understood, then learn the harder, braver rule,
Do Good." ~ *Arthur Guiterman

"Martin Petrov" wrote..
No wonder the Guardian is losing readers every year.
Note - it's a "comment" in the newspaper, rather than an editorial or
some such. My posting it didn't have a Guardian bashing agenda, nor
should it be used for one (IMHO).

If the Guardian didn't want to be associated with paranoid idiots, they
could have deleted it.

We all choose the company we keep, and others are entitled to make
judgements based on that.

For example, I fully realise that if any of my friends knew I was even
having this ridiculous discussion, they'd laugh at me - I know my defence of
"it passes the time" would probably be insufficient.

And that's my burden.

You, it seems, are the Guardian's burden. Their choice. That's what civil
liberties is all about; choice. No need to defend their suicidal stupidity.
If they want to be laughed off the planet, who are we to knock that
editorial policy?
--

Andrew
"If A is success in life, then A = x + y + z.
Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut." ~ Albert Einstein