Ebbsfleet horse play
 

Excerpt from BBC News online...

---quote---
A giant white horse has been chosen as a new £2m art commission for
south east England dubbed "Angel of the South".

The design, by former Turner Prize winner Mark Wallinger, was selected
from a three-strong shortlist as part of the Ebbsfleet Landmark
Project.

His design for the public art commission will see a horse standing on
all four hooves at 33 times life-size.

Once built, it will dominate the north Kent landscape, standing as
high as Nelson's Column at about 164ft (50m).
---/quote---

More he
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/7880889.stm

I'm sure people will scoff, but my take on it is 'why not?'. The Angel
of the North was widely regarded as an extravagant indulgence when it
was being planned and built, but it has since won over a great many of
the sceptics and has become a genuine landmark.

Something that I don't think has necessarily been well recognised in
past discussions beforehand is that Ebbsfleet International station is
going to be at the heart of a whole big development, the Ebbsfleet
Valley development that's being led by Land Securities (which is in
turn part of the wider 'Thames Gateway' development concept). Stuff
I've read suggests that the planners are really trying to put in place
the foundations for a proper mixed community there - whether this will
actually work only time will tell. I'm unclear on how the economic
mega-crunch is affecting progress on the plans, though I'm sure it
will.

More information can be found on the developer's website here...
http://www.ebbsfleetvalley.co.uk/
....and on the pages of the BBC Kent website...
http://tinyurl.com/BBC-Kent-on-Ebbsfleet-Valley

Also both Dartford and Gravesham Borough Councils have more info:
http://www.dartford.gov.uk/ebbsfleetvalley/
http://www.gravesham.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=3431

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

Mizter T wrote:

I'm sure people will scoff, but my take on it is 'why not?'.

"The foal in the hole"
(With thanks to the people of Dublin)

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...
Excerpt from BBC News online...

---quote---
A giant white horse has been chosen as a new £2m art commission for
south east England dubbed "Angel of the South".

OT - When they commission these things, is 2m the actual cost of employing
people at normal, amd in the street, hourly wages to make it, or is it a
huge (IMHO unnecessary) fee paid to the artist for their contribution?

Does anyone know?

tim

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

On 10 Feb, 13:53, M Platting wrote:

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 05:32:17 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

I'm sure people will scoff, but my take on it is 'why not?'. The Angel
of the North was widely regarded as an extravagant indulgence when it
was being planned and built, but it has since won over a great many of
the sceptics and has become a genuine landmark.

Not 'scoff' exactly - it just looks a bit dull. It merely appears to
be an anatomically accurate sculpture of a horse, albeit a bit bigger.
You could get the same effect by giving everyone arriving on Eurostar
a small plastic model horse and telling them to hold it close to them
and look at it with the passing fields in the background *(yes, it's
that 'Father Ted' moment again!)

So why the big horse? Big'orse that's what the general public seem to
want!


Yeah, I can certainly see the argument that a big'orse is not that
imaginative, indeed similar thoughts crossed my mind too - but that
doesn't mean it the finished thing won't be striking.

The BBC News article says "[...] a sculpture of the Invicta, supported
by Kent County Council in response to Mr Wallinger's entry, was
rejected by judges last year." I take it that means a sculpture of a
white horse on its hind legs as depicted on the 'Invicta' Flag of Kent
as shown here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kent_flag.svg
I suppose that such a design might well have necessitated it being
smaller.

Perhaps I've got it all wrong and it is actually going to be
offensively ugly!

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009, Mizter T wrote:

I'm sure people will scoff, but my take on it is 'why not?'. The Angel
of the North was widely regarded as an extravagant indulgence when it
was being planned and built, but it has since won over a great many of
the sceptics and has become a genuine landmark.

To answer your question, because the Angel of the North was something that
had a deep connection, through being a huge thing made out of steel, to
the community around it, a community which has been through hard times but
maintained a strong sense of self, and was thus ripe for the adoption of
an icon. The Ebbsfleet Big Horse is just a big horse [1], and is being
built in a dormitory suburb of London.

Also, the Angel of the North is a visually striking object and an
interesting piece of engineering, even if you don't think it was value for
money. The big horse isn't even that - it's just a big horse. You can get
the same visual effect for a fraction of the cost by finding a normal
horse and standing close to it.

tom

[1] Yes, a big horse is the symbol of Kent, but if someone built three
hundred-foot-high scimitars in Chelmsford, i don't think i'd get
particularly attached to them [2].

[2] Although that would be pretty cool.

--
GODZILLA PLEASE EAT THE ****IN COLDPLAY -- a poster in Bergen

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

On 10 Feb, 14:06, "tim....." wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

Excerpt from BBC News online...

---quote---
A giant white horse has been chosen as a new £2m art commission
for south east England dubbed "Angel of the South".

OT - When they commission these things, is 2m the actual cost of employing
people at normal, amd in the street, hourly wages to make it, or is it a
huge (IMHO unnecessary) fee paid to the artist for their contribution?

Does anyone know?


It is the cost for the whole commission - that's the cost of
constructing it plus an amount for the artist. Mark Wallinger
certainly isn't going to get outlandishly rich from this, though he
will get paid. Of course it will mean he gets a lot more exposure, so
securing his reputation and leading on to future work. Unless it all
goes very wrong!

It should be noted this is a privately (not publicly) funded project -
Eurostar, LCR and Land Securities (developer of the Ebbsfleet Valley)
are behind it.

Here's a bit more info:

---quote---
The Ebbsfleet Landmark is a rare example of large-scale private
patronage: the three Patrons are Eurostar, London & Continental
Railways and Land Securities (who are developers of Ebbsfleet Valley).
The project’s patrons recognise their responsibility as ‘placemakers’
at the beginning of the 21st century. They acknowledge the vital
importance of creating a sense of community in Ebbsfleet Valley, one
the four key transformational projects in the Thames Gateway as
identified by the Government. As a statement of belief in the power of
art to enliven, to cohere and to transform people’s lives, it creates
a challenging precedent for future large-scale regeneration projects
to match.
---/quote---

Of course I suppose one can argue about just how private LCR actually
is!

Anyway the above quite is taken from page 6 of this press kit on the
project (PDF):
http://www.ebbsfleetlandmark.com/web..._Press_Kit.pdf

More information can be found on the website of the Ebbsfleet Landmark
project he
http://www.ebbsfleetlandmark.com/

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

Tom Anderson wrote:

[1] Yes, a big horse is the symbol of Kent, but if someone built three
hundred-foot-high scimitars in Chelmsford, i don't think i'd get
particularly attached to them [2].

[2] Although that would be pretty cool.

I come from Tottenham, and I'm rather attached to the massive cutthroat
razor and hyperdermic syringe which tower above Tottenham Hale. I'm
disappointed the council has so far not replied to my suggestion to
complement them with a massive tampon hanging in the River Lea.

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

In message i, Tom
Anderson writes
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009, Mizter T wrote:

I'm sure people will scoff, but my take on it is 'why not?'. The
Angel of the North was widely regarded as an extravagant indulgence
when it was being planned and built, but it has since won over a
great many of the sceptics and has become a genuine landmark.

To answer your question, because the Angel of the North was something
that had a deep connection, through being a huge thing made out of
steel, to the community around it, a community which has been through
hard times but maintained a strong sense of self, and was thus ripe for
the adoption of an icon. The Ebbsfleet Big Horse is just a big horse
[1], and is being built in a dormitory suburb of London.

Also, the Angel of the North is a visually striking object and an
interesting piece of engineering, even if you don't think it was value
for money. The big horse isn't even that - it's just a big horse. You
can get the same visual effect for a fraction of the cost by finding a
normal horse and standing close to it.

tom

[1] Yes, a big horse is the symbol of Kent, but if someone built three
hundred-foot-high scimitars in Chelmsford, i don't think i'd get
particularly attached to them [2].

Now you've managed to get me thinking, Tom.

I would quite like an enormous knot somewhere in Staffordshire. (A
pity Spaghetti Junction is next door in Brum!)

I suppose an enormous pear towering over the M5 in Worcestershire might
be okay, too.

A great big bear and ragged staff on the M40?

Any more ideas?

(By the way, there's already a large horse [eight legged, too]
overlooking the Midland Metro depot at Wednesbury.)
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

On 10 Feb, 14:19, Tom Anderson wrote:

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009, Mizter T wrote:
I'm sure people will scoff, but my take on it is 'why not?'. The Angel
of the North was widely regarded as an extravagant indulgence when it
was being planned and built, but it has since won over a great many of
the sceptics and has become a genuine landmark.

To answer your question, because the Angel of the North was something that
had a deep connection, through being a huge thing made out of steel, to
the community around it, a community which has been through hard times but
maintained a strong sense of self, and was thus ripe for the adoption of
an icon. The Ebbsfleet Big Horse is just a big horse [1], and is being
built in a dormitory suburb of London.

The Angel of the North was of course ultra-controversially fabricated
on Teesside not Tyneside which didn't help to endear it to local
people. The sense of self thing in the North East is interesting - I
think it does exist but there are also strong local rivalries too (I
recall a Geordie exclaiming that 'they shouldn't be building a Me'ro
line between Newcastle and Sunderland, they should be building a
f***ing wall'!). FWIW the Angel was actually a Gateshead project.

Ebbsfleet a dormitory suburb of London? I'd say dormitory town, it's a
bit too far out to be a suburb in my books, though of course the high-
speed service will mean it will take just 17 minutes to get into St.
Pancras.

But yes, they are indeed different - the Angel served to bond together
an existing community, whilst the Horse is intended to help to create
a new community, providing it with a sense of place. Worth a try in my
books.


Also, the Angel of the North is a visually striking object and an
interesting piece of engineering, even if you don't think it was value for
money. The big horse isn't even that - it's just a big horse. You can get
the same visual effect for a fraction of the cost by finding a normal
horse and standing close to it.

It'll surely still be an interesting engineering challenge. And a
normal horse does not tower over a big chunk of a county!


tom

[1] Yes, a big horse is the symbol of Kent, but if someone built three
hundred-foot-high scimitars in Chelmsford, i don't think i'd get
particularly attached to them [2].

[2] Although that would be pretty cool.

So perhaps that's what the big'orse will be - pretty cool.

I think Tower Bridge is great, but it's basically a somewhat absurd
Disneyland-esque take on ye olden days by the Victorians. The ornate
Palace of Westminster is a similar architectural sleight of hand. The
modern day London Eye is a somewhat absurd oversized bit of a theme
park stuck in the middle of central London, but it's also great. Heck,
Nelson's Column can be seen as a bit bonkers, but I wouldn't have it
any other way.

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009, Mizter T wrote:
"The modern day London Eye is a somewhat absurd oversized bit of a
theme
park stuck in the middle of central London, but it's also great. Heck,........"

Foreboding of an accident...?

Cheers
Robt P.

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

Mizter T wrote:
Excerpt from BBC News online...

A giant white horse has been chosen as a new £2m art commission for
south east England dubbed "Angel of the South".

Once built, it will dominate the north Kent landscape, standing as
high as Nelson's Column at about 164ft (50m).

The Barking Barrier is 60 metres high. I wish that it had been built to look
like a giant horse - this would not hinder the functionality, and would have
added little extra expense.

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

On 10 Feb, 17:14, Robt P wrote:

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009, Mizter T wrote:

"The modern day London Eye is a somewhat absurd oversized
bit of a theme park stuck in the middle of central London,
but it's also great. Heck,........"

Foreboding of an accident...?


Nah, definitely not - the thing is totally solid and completely over-
engineered, just as big things like that should be.

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

"Mizter T" wrote ...
"The modern day London Eye is a somewhat absurd oversized
bit of a theme park stuck in the middle of central London,
but it's also great. Heck,........"
Foreboding of an accident...?
Nah, definitely not - the thing is totally solid and completely over-
engineered, just as big things like that should be.

I agree; mind you, it was designed for a five-year life, as I recall.
That's why over-engineering is a Good Thing!
--

Andrew

"If A is success in life, then A = x + y + z.
Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut." ~ Albert Einstein

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

John Rowland wrote:

The Barking Barrier is 60 metres high. I wish that it had been built
to look like a giant horse

That should say "giant barking dog"

- this would not hinder the functionality,
and would have added little extra expense.

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

On 10 Feb, 18:58, wrote:

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:12:36 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

So why the big horse? Big'orse that's what the general public seem to
want!

Yeah, I can certainly see the argument that a big'orse is not that
imaginative, indeed similar thoughts crossed my mind too - but that
doesn't mean it the finished thing won't be striking.

Perhaps I've got it all wrong and it is actually going to be
offensively ugly!

Hope it won't look to bad as if it does get built the area is likely
to be saddled with it for a long time.

G.harman

Hee haw, very good! But you've a point - we don't want locals braying
about it forevermore.

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009, Mizter T wrote:

On 10 Feb, 18:58, wrote:

So why the big horse? Big'orse that's what the general public seem to
want!

Hope it won't look to bad as if it does get built the area is likely to
be saddled with it for a long time.

Hee haw, very good! But you've a point - we don't want locals braying
about it forevermore.

On the flip side, it might help the area win EU funding.

tom

PS Say it quickly ^^^^^

--
I was employed by a Lacanian and, believe me, you don't want to see what
a postmodern approach to cashflow entails. -- G'

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...
Mizter T wrote:

I'm sure people will scoff, but my take on it is 'why not?'.

"The foal in the hole"
(With thanks to the people of Dublin)


A nightmare?
Derek


-----------------
www.Newsgroup-Binaries.com - *Completion*Retention*Speed*
Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road
-----------------

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 05:32:17 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Excerpt from BBC News online...

---quote---
A giant white horse has been chosen as a new £2m art commission for
south east England dubbed "Angel of the South".

How much has TP been forced to contribute ?
snip

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

Am Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:32:17 UTC, schrieb Mizter T
auf uk.railway quoting BBC:

His design for the public art commission will see a horse standing on
all four hooves at 33 times life-size.

Once built, it will dominate the north Kent landscape, standing as
high as Nelson's Column at about 164ft (50m).

Since it is to be standing on all four hooves, the structure will
also be about 50 meters long or even longer. And wide in the range of
10 meters.

quite a big building.


Cheers,
L.W.


-- -----------------------------------------------------

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

"Lüko Willms" wrote in message
...
Am Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:32:17 UTC, schrieb Mizter T
auf uk.railway quoting BBC:

His design for the public art commission will see a horse standing on
all four hooves at 33 times life-size.

Once built, it will dominate the north Kent landscape, standing as
high as Nelson's Column at about 164ft (50m).

Since it is to be standing on all four hooves, the structure will
also be about 50 meters long or even longer. And wide in the range of
10 meters.

quite a big building.


Cheers,
L.W.

This could turn out to be a Trojan horse when under cover of darkness
illegals pour out.
Derek


-----------------
www.Newsgroup-Binaries.com - *Completion*Retention*Speed*
Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road
-----------------

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

"Lüko Willms" wrote ...
His design for the public art commission will see a horse standing on
all four hooves at 33 times life-size.
Since it is to be standing on all four hooves, the structure will
also be about 50 meters long or even longer. And wide in the range of
10 meters.
quite a big building.

Will it come with the Greek Army preinstalled, or will that be extra?
--

Andrew

Interviewer: Tonight I'm interviewing that famous nurse, Florence
Nightingale
Tommy Cooper (dressed as a nurse): Sir Florence Nightingale
Interviewer: *Sir* Florence Nightingale?
Tommy Cooper: I'm a Night Nurse

Campaign For The Real Tommy Cooper

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

Am Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:32:38 UTC, schrieb "Andrew Heenan"
auf uk.railway :

"Lüko Willms" wrote ...
His design for the public art commission will see a horse standing on
all four hooves at 33 times life-size.
Since it is to be standing on all four hooves, the structure will
also be about 50 meters long or even longer. And wide in the range of
10 meters.
quite a big building.

Will it come with the Greek Army preinstalled, or will that be extra?

One could install elevators in the legs and use the whole thing as a
pedestrian overpass. A solution still looking for a problem...


Cheers,
L.W.

-- -----------------------------------------------------

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

"DerekF" wrote in message
...

"Lüko Willms" wrote in message
...
Am Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:32:17 UTC, schrieb Mizter T
auf uk.railway quoting BBC:

His design for the public art commission will see a horse standing on
all four hooves at 33 times life-size.

If the horse is 33 times life size, imagine the quantity of droppings it
will produce...

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

Mizter T wrote:
Excerpt from BBC News online...

---quote---
A giant white horse has been chosen as a new £2m art commission for
south east England dubbed "Angel of the South".

White to begin with, no doubt. But how long will it stay white, and who
pays to clean it? It is going to take more than a couple of lads with a
bucket and sponge.

Does it have cleverly-hidden rails for a hanging cleaners' basket (and
how does that work on the overhanging parts)?

Or is this to be a monument to great British flash-in-the-pan-ism - left
gently to grey (or rust?) as a warning to visitors arriving on Eurostar
about the standards of public infrastructure that they should expect in
Britain?

John Geddes

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

John Geddes wrote:

But how long will it stay white, and
who pays to clean it? It is going to take more than a couple of lads
with a bucket and sponge.

The seagulls will keep it white for free.

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...

But how long will it stay white, and
who pays to clean it? It is going to take more than a couple of lads
with a bucket and sponge.

The seagulls will keep it white for free.

Of course - a starling nest!

[the effect of tens of thousands of the little dears can still be seen on
the north end of Crewe station]

--
Tim
http://tim-fenton.fotopic.net/
http://timsworkspace.fotopic.net/

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

Mizter T wrote:
On 10 Feb, 17:14, Robt P wrote:

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009, Mizter T wrote:

"The modern day London Eye is a somewhat absurd oversized
bit of a theme park stuck in the middle of central London,
but it's also great. Heck,........"

Foreboding of an accident...?


Nah, definitely not - the thing is totally solid and completely over-
engineered, just as big things like that should be.

Whoosh!

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

Mizter T wrote:

I'm sure people will scoff, but my take on it is 'why not?'.

In some parts of the country they put up wind turbines which are useful but
ugly, in other parts of the country they put up giant horses which are
pretty but useless. Can't they cover the horse in slots and put wind
turbines inside it? If the people of Ebbsfleet ended up with something which
is both pretty and useful, it would give them a reason to be proud of it
rather than slightly embarrassed about it.

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

On 11 Feb, 10:37, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Nah, definitely not - the thing is totally solid and completely over-
engineered, just as big things like that should be.

Whoosh!

I don't get why Mitzer T brought up Great Heck. Why now?

U

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:59:15 -0000, "Mortimer" wrote:

"DerekF" wrote in message
...

"Lüko Willms" wrote in message
...
Am Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:32:17 UTC, schrieb Mizter T
auf uk.railway quoting BBC:

His design for the public art commission will see a horse standing on
all four hooves at 33 times life-size.

If the horse is 33 times life size, imagine the quantity of droppings it
will produce...


.....and the size of the rhubarb


--

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

On 11 Feb, 12:12, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 11 Feb, 10:37, "John Rowland"
wrote:

Nah, definitely not - the thing is totally solid and completely over-
engineered, just as big things like that should be.

Whoosh!

I don't get why Mitzer T brought up Great Heck. Why now?


Lightbulb... ding!

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:14:35 +0000, Mike wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:59:15 -0000, "Mortimer" wrote:

"DerekF" wrote in message
...

"Lüko Willms" wrote in message
...
Am Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:32:17 UTC, schrieb Mizter T
auf uk.railway quoting BBC:

His design for the public art commission will see a horse standing on
all four hooves at 33 times life-size.

If the horse is 33 times life size, imagine the quantity of droppings it
will produce...


....and the size of the rhubarb

Thank goodness cows don't fly.

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009, John Rowland wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

I'm sure people will scoff, but my take on it is 'why not?'.

In some parts of the country they put up wind turbines which are useful but
ugly, in other parts of the country they put up giant horses which are
pretty but useless.

I really like wind turbines! I think they're beautful!

The farm off the coast of Rhyl is particularly nice.

Can't they cover the horse in slots and put wind turbines inside it? If
the people of Ebbsfleet ended up with something which is both pretty and
useful, it would give them a reason to be proud of it rather than
slightly embarrassed about it.

Global warming flood refuge?

tom

--
Annoying others means you are wise; it is when you annoy yourself that
you are truly enlightened. -- The Bullet Proof Monk

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:42:01 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009, John Rowland wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

I'm sure people will scoff, but my take on it is 'why not?'.

In some parts of the country they put up wind turbines which are useful but
ugly, in other parts of the country they put up giant horses which are
pretty but useless.

I really like wind turbines! I think they're beautful!

The farm off the coast of Rhyl is particularly nice.

A radioactive offshore waste dump topped by a favela, surrounded by
blue algae and a sewage slick would look nice compared to Rhyl. Along
with New Brighton it's one of the most run down and depression coastal
locations I've ever seen.


james may voice

Farty useless highly subsidised wind turbine fact:

The building of the wind farm did bugger all for the local economy
either in the short term or the long term.


--

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:07:57 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:14:35 +0000, Mike wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:59:15 -0000, "Mortimer" wrote:

"DerekF" wrote in message
...

"Lüko Willms" wrote in message
...
Am Tue, 10 Feb 2009 13:32:17 UTC, schrieb Mizter T
auf uk.railway quoting BBC:

His design for the public art commission will see a horse standing on
all four hooves at 33 times life-size.

If the horse is 33 times life size, imagine the quantity of droppings it
will produce...


....and the size of the rhubarb

Thank goodness cows don't fly.

The farmer would get a pat on the head.

Ebbsfleet horse play
 

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009, Mike wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:42:01 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009, John Rowland wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

I'm sure people will scoff, but my take on it is 'why not?'.

In some parts of the country they put up wind turbines which are useful but
ugly, in other parts of the country they put up giant horses which are
pretty but useless.

I really like wind turbines! I think they're beautful!

The farm off the coast of Rhyl is particularly nice.

A radioactive offshore waste dump topped by a favela, surrounded by blue
algae and a sewage slick would look nice compared to Rhyl. Along with
New Brighton it's one of the most run down and depression coastal
locations I've ever seen.

Yeah, Rhyl's not so great. But when you're looking at the wind farm, you
can't see Rhyl, because you're standing on the waterfront in Rhyl, looking
out to sea. So it doesn't really come into it.

tom

--
IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!