East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_...eleaseid=20938

Hallelujah! Phase 2b of the East London Line Extension, which will
link the existing line south of Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction via
the 'South London Line' railway has finally been given the full go-
ahead after an eon of prevarication, in part the result of squabbling
between the DfT and TfL/ the Mayor of London over funding. Whilst the
latest negotiations are almost certain to have had a political angle,
what with the different political hues of Boris and the government,
this is a saga that has been going on for a lot longer than the
current Mayor is likely to have known what ELLX phase 2b actually
meant (which should perhaps be borne in mind when it comes to handing
out the credit - but fair play to him in so far as he recognised the
importance of the project and pushed ahead with it).

The East London Line link to Clapham Jn will provide an abundance of
orbital journey possibilities.

Phase 2b is shown on this map in light blue (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa..._route_map.pdf

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

"Mizter T" wrote

The other issue is probably future lack of trains to and from
Battersea Park from SLL destinations. I think a good number of people
using Battersea Park via the SLL are actually changing for trains to
Clapham Jn, so the ELLX will provide a direct service. However the big
plans for Battersea Power Station's redevelopment mean that it will
become a centre of employment, so it's a bit of a shame to lose direct
trains there from the SLL. Plus Battersea Park station is obviously
great for getting to Battersea Park itself, which is a rather splendid
park. Passengers will of course be able to change at either Clapham Jn
or Victoria to get to and from Battersea Park, or they could walk or
get a bus from Wandsworth Rd station.

AIUI the SLL platforms at Battersea Park are doomed anyway, as indeed is the
SLL between Wandsworth Road and Battersea Park, as the South London Metro 10
car scheme will involve extending the Down Slow platform across the
junction.

Peter

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...
http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_...eleaseid=20938

Hallelujah! Phase 2b of the East London Line Extension, which will
link the existing line south of Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction via
the 'South London Line' railway has finally been given the full go-
ahead after an eon of prevarication, in part the result of squabbling
between the DfT and TfL/ the Mayor of London over funding. Whilst the
latest negotiations are almost certain to have had a political angle,
what with the different political hues of Boris and the government,
this is a saga that has been going on for a lot longer than the
current Mayor is likely to have known what ELLX phase 2b actually
meant (which should perhaps be borne in mind when it comes to handing
out the credit - but fair play to him in so far as he recognised the
importance of the project and pushed ahead with it).

The East London Line link to Clapham Jn will provide an abundance of
orbital journey possibilities.

Phase 2b is shown on this map in light blue (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa..._route_map.pdf

Funny, whilst on a trip today from Bromley via Clapham Jn, Willesden, Gospel
Oak and Barking (yes I am!) and back to Bromley, I wondered why they don't
switch the SL service from London Bridge at Wandsworth Road to Olympia (or
some sensible point along the WLL)? Solves DH problem and gives another way
of avoiding central London.

Really need to do something about the speed limits on the WLL though!

MaxB

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On 12 Feb, 14:49, MIG wrote:

(snip)

It's a kind of mixture of good and bad for down my way.

I'm certainly not unsympathetic to concerns about the knock-on changes
that ELLX will bring - though in many ways those changes are actually
the result of other developments (i.e. Thameslink at London Bridge and
Battersea Park's platform lengthening) and ELLX phase 2b broadly fills
the gap that they'll create.


I've only had to go to Battersea Park once, for which I went to
Lewisham and then changed once at Denmark Hill, but the lack of
evening and Sunday service has long scuppered many possibilities.
Normally it would be Victoria via Underground and out again, which
seems a bit ridiculous, but it's what the South Central area has
always been like. *Closes down evenings and Sundays, so people don't
use it, knowing they can't get home. *I hope the ELLX will change
that.

The obvious solution is of course to get the Victoria - Lewisham -
Dartford (via Bexleyheath) service running in the late evenings and on
Sundays too (you say exactly the same in your post). I can't see why
this doesn't or cannot happen - perhaps there's a fear it will become
too popular with people deserting London Bridge and CX etc! It's a
very useful service, slicing across south London to Victoria with a
stop at Peckham Rye for connections to south central territory and at
Denmark Hill for the hospitals.


A couple of times I've needed to go from Putney to Denmark Hill and
changed at the Batterseas, but now I'd change at Clapham Junction.

Ah yes - my feeling is that it can't be much further from the
platforms of Queentown Road Battersea to Battersea Park than it is
from one side of Clapham Jn to the other! Certainly a useful
interchange point - one hopes that people aren't getting off SWT at
Clapham Jn for a Southern train to Battersea Park and then changing
i.e. adding in an unnecessary leg, though I'm sure some are!


The thing that I think will be a real problem is Denmark Hill to
London Bridge, the only route when the Lewisham route is closed, but
used by an awful lot of people according to my observation.

Good point. The best solution is the simple one of course - run the
Victoria - Lewisham - Dartford service all the time. The fact it dies
in the mid evening M-S is just silly. You've said just that many times
before of course!


It depends on how good the connections are at Queens Road Peckham. *I
wouldn't recommend the ****-soaked concrete staircases of Peckham Rye.

You've said this before about Peckham Rye and I never got round to
taking you up on it. The whole station is rather better looked after
these days than it has been in the past. I won't set myself up as a
hostage to fortune and vouch from them being spotless but they don't
stink of **** any more. The station is visibly staffed (not just the
ticket office) for much if not all the day and is quite busy. I agree
that it could do with a proper bit of redevelopment. The one staircase
that is somewhat objectionable is that leading to and from platform 4
- if nothing else it'd be good to have something done to improve it.

Regarding connections at Queen's Road Peckham (QRP) and Peckham Rye -
for reasons unclear to me the new (Dec '08) timetable removed 2tph off-
peak from London Bridge via Peckham Rye, Tulse Hill and West Norwood
to Smitham, reducing the service from 8tph to 6tph. My recollection is
that these ran just in front of of or behind the SLL service, so their
loss from Peckham Rye, QRP and South Bermondsey wasn't a big deal.
However the loss of the SLL service would further reduce this to 4tph
from these stations, unless the SLL trains were replaced by something
else - I imagine that they would be but this is something to look out
for.


I note that there is no mention of an interchange at Brixton, which is
so bleedin obviously needed.

Problem is it's so bleedin expensive, up on stilts towering above
Brixton! I recall the now defunct SLL travellers association
("SoLLTA") pushing for this in the eighties. I can't see it happening
imminently, but the pressure will surely grow as Brixtonians watch the
orange Overground trains passing above them/ passengers watch Brixton
passing them by below.

I've said beforehand that I sort of think that a new East Brixton
station wouldn't be such a bad thing - it wouldn't be a transport
interchange mecca, but it would serve the Brixton nonetheless.


I wonder if the evening and Sunday services (both of which have
existed at different times) between Lewisham and Victoria will be
restored so that there is a full range of connections (and also what
hours the Bellingham service will run).

Any idea when the Lewisham to Victoria via P. Rye services last ran in
the evenings and on Sundays?

I suppose there's still the question of whether the Bellingham service
(aka 'SLL2') will actually happen - I very much hope it does. As well
as acting as a substitute for the withdrawn SLL service it would also
offer a brand new direct 2tph service to Victoria from Bellingham,
Catford and Crofton Park as well as an increased frequency of 4tph to
Victoria from Nunhead as well. One would hope it ran every day, all
day of course!

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On Feb 12, 4:23*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 12 Feb, 14:49, MIG wrote:



(snip)

(much more snip)


It depends on how good the connections are at Queens Road Peckham. *I
wouldn't recommend the ****-soaked concrete staircases of Peckham Rye.

You've said this before about Peckham Rye and I never got round to
taking you up on it. The whole station is rather better looked after
these days than it has been in the past. I won't set myself up as a
hostage to fortune and vouch from them being spotless but they don't
stink of **** any more. The station is visibly staffed (not just the
ticket office) for much if not all the day and is quite busy. I agree
that it could do with a proper bit of redevelopment. The one staircase
that is somewhat objectionable is that leading to and from platform 4
- if nothing else it'd be good to have something done to improve it.

Perhaps I've avoided it after traumatic experiences, so you could be
right. But they are still long and steep.


Regarding connections at Queen's Road Peckham (QRP) and Peckham Rye -
for reasons unclear to me the new (Dec '08) timetable removed 2tph off-
peak from London Bridge via Peckham Rye, Tulse Hill and West Norwood
to Smitham, reducing the service from 8tph to 6tph. My recollection is
that these ran just in front of of or behind the SLL service, so their
loss from Peckham Rye, QRP and South Bermondsey wasn't a big deal.
However the loss of the SLL service would further reduce this to 4tph
from these stations, unless the SLL trains were replaced by something
else - I imagine that they would be but this is something to look out
for.

I was also thinking that, depending on timing, it might be more
convenient to change from a South Eastern service rather than ELLX, in
which case Queens Road wouldn't be an option and the full staircase
experience at Peckham Rye would be required.

I note that there is no mention of an interchange at Brixton, which is
so bleedin obviously needed.

Problem is it's so bleedin expensive, up on stilts towering above
Brixton! I recall the now defunct SLL travellers association
("SoLLTA") pushing for this in the eighties. I can't see it happening
imminently, but the pressure will surely grow as Brixtonians watch the
orange Overground trains passing above them/ passengers watch Brixton
passing them by below.

I've said beforehand that I sort of think that a new East Brixton
station wouldn't be such a bad thing - it wouldn't be a transport
interchange mecca, but it would serve the Brixton nonetheless.


I was wondering, with the withdrawal of Eurostars that way, if there
was space to build platforms on the Chatham/Catford side where there's
already a disused platform stub attached to the existing Brixton
station. But ELLX trains couldn't reach those tracks without a new
crossover somewhere, and they'd have to cross back again ...
Southeastern could use it though, and one change at Denmark Hill.



I wonder if the evening and Sunday services (both of which have
existed at different times) between Lewisham and Victoria will be
restored so that there is a full range of connections (and also what
hours the Bellingham service will run).

Any idea when the Lewisham to Victoria via P. Rye services last ran in
the evenings and on Sundays?

I was working near Victoria in 1998 and 1999, and during that time I'm
pretty sure the evening services were withdrawn, to my annoyance if I
went for a pint after. So probably 1999 for evenings (last train
changed from 2316 to 1946).

There were services on Sundays during the period when the Dome was
open, and for the remainder of a timetable period after it closed.
They went to Charlton rather than Bexleyheath, understandably. Also
extra trains the rest of the time, which partly made up for the loss
of evenings.


I suppose there's still the question of whether the Bellingham service
(aka 'SLL2') will actually happen - I very much hope it does. As well
as acting as a substitute for the withdrawn SLL service it would also
offer a brand new direct 2tph service to Victoria from Bellingham,
Catford and Crofton Park as well as an increased frequency of 4tph to
Victoria from Nunhead as well. One would hope it ran every day, all
day of course!

Not so long ago there were no local Sunday services on the Catford
line, just extra stops at Denmark, Peckham, Catford and Bellingham for
Dover services, so things can improve.

The Sunday service, when introduced, went from Victoria rather than
Blackfriars.

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

"Mizter T" wrote

Any idea when the Lewisham to Victoria via P. Rye services last ran in
the evenings and on Sundays?

I've only looked at Summer timetables, so dates are a bit approximate, but
the history seems to be:
1935 Dartford -Lewisham - Peckham Rye -Blackfriars peak hours service
started. (The LCDR had run trains to Greenwich Park via Nunhead until 1917,
but these did not give a good interchange with any SER station).
Service withdrawn during WW2
1946 service reinstated and extended to Holborn Viaduct, but remained peak
hours only. To reach Victoria a change to the SLL at Denmark Hill was
needed.
1986 peak services to both Holborn Viaduct and Victoria
1990 timetable shows the Blackfriars trains running to St Pauls Thameslink,
but this never actually happened.
1991 service was via Bexleyheath to Victoria and via Sidcup to Blackfriars,
both services remaining Monday to Friday peak hours only.
1993 Sidcup route service to Blackfriars withdrawn; Bexleyheath route
service to Victoria remained, but still peak hours only.
1994 All day Monday - Saturday service started Dartford - Victoria via
Bexleyheath, and for this timetable only included klate evenings.
1995 Evening service withdrawn
Trains never seem to have used the route on Sundays (apart from engineering
diversions - at one time if the Sole Street route was closed Victoria -
Ramsgate trains would call at Nunhead, for rail connections, and Lee, for a
bus connection from Bromley South. More recently there have been occasions
when no trains have run via Bromley South, and a Victoria - Bromley North
service has run - the Bromley North branch normally having branch trains to
Grove Park only, and no trains at all on Sundays).

Peter

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On Feb 12, 5:36*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote



Any idea when the Lewisham to Victoria via P. Rye services last ran in
the evenings and on Sundays?

I've only looked at Summer timetables, so dates are a bit approximate, but
the history seems to be:
1935 Dartford -Lewisham - Peckham Rye -Blackfriars peak hours service
started. (The LCDR had run trains to Greenwich Park via Nunhead until 1917,
but these did not give a good interchange with any SER station).
Service withdrawn during WW2
1946 service reinstated and extended to Holborn Viaduct, but remained peak
hours only. To reach Victoria a change to the SLL at Denmark Hill was
needed.
1986 peak services to both Holborn Viaduct and Victoria
1990 timetable shows the Blackfriars trains running to St Pauls Thameslink,
but this never actually happened.
1991 service was via Bexleyheath to Victoria and via Sidcup to Blackfriars,
both services remaining Monday to Friday peak hours only.
1993 Sidcup route service to Blackfriars withdrawn; Bexleyheath route
service to Victoria remained, but still peak hours only.

All sorts of interesting things ran while Charing Cross was closed for
the London Bridge extensions that year though.

1994 All day Monday - Saturday service started Dartford - Victoria via
Bexleyheath, and for this timetable only included klate evenings.
1995 Evening service withdrawn

I must have misremembered then. Maybe I was annoyed the whole time I
was working near Victoria but assumed the change to have been while I
was (1999).

In fact, now I remember why I was annoyed, and you are right about the
period. When the services were introduced, they weren't publicised at
all but those of us who noticed them found them useful.

Then finally a poster campaign announcing the Victoria services
coincided with the withdrawal of the evening services (the only ones I
used at the time) before any chance to see if they would then be
popular.

Trains never seem to have used the route on Sundays (apart from engineering
diversions - at one time if the Sole Street route was closed Victoria -
Ramsgate trains would call at Nunhead, for rail connections, and Lee, for a
bus connection from Bromley South. More recently there have been occasions
when no trains have run via Bromley South, and a Victoria - Bromley North
service has run - the Bromley North branch normally having branch trains to
Grove Park only, and no trains at all on Sundays).

But don't forget the Dome trains that I mentioned in my other reply.
They ran for about three timetables I think.

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On 12 Feb, 16:04, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

The other issue is probably future lack of trains to and from
Battersea Park from SLL destinations. I think a good number of people
using Battersea Park via the SLL are actually changing for trains to
Clapham Jn, so the ELLX will provide a direct service. However the big
plans for Battersea Power Station's redevelopment mean that it will
become a centre of employment, so it's a bit of a shame to lose direct
trains there from the SLL. Plus Battersea Park station is obviously
great for getting to Battersea Park itself, which is a rather splendid
park. Passengers will of course be able to change at either Clapham Jn
or Victoria to get to and from Battersea Park, or they could walk or
get a bus from Wandsworth Rd station.

AIUI the SLL platforms at Battersea Park are doomed anyway, as indeed is the
SLL between Wandsworth Road and Battersea Park, as the South London Metro 10
car scheme will involve extending the Down Slow platform across the
junction.


Yeah, somewhere in the midst of my second lengthy post I did mention
the fact that the platform lengthening plans would sever the SLL/
Atlantic Lines at Battersea Park - I then threw in a query as to
whether these plans will actually reach fruition any time soon, as I
suppose the recession might cast a shadow over it all. The thing with
the RUS modus operadi is that we hear what the planners'
recommendations are, but we never then hear what the masterplan of
action is from DfT Rail (cue hilarity) - thus we're left guessing
whether the new Victoria to Bellingham service will actually
materialise. If I was to guess I'd say it would happen, and that it's
in the DfT's gameplan, but at present it has not yet been finalised. I
wonder how long we'll wait for an announcement - the longer there
isn't one, the more people will wonder whether it's ever going to
happen or not.

It's silly as the DfT could avoid adverse publicity by making an
announcement sooner rather than later, though I suppose it's possible
that they might wait and see if there is any uproar - if there is
they'll react, if there isn't they'll forget about it - in other words
the delay in itself is a kind of sounding board. Perhaps I'm crediting
them with being somewhat more wiley than they actually are!

The other thing about the Victoria - Bellingham service ('SLL2' as
I've called it) that I didn't mention earlier is that it conveniently
runs out of Victoria's less busy eastern side, thus freeing up
platforms in the central side of the station - the South London RUS
highlights this as a benefit of this plan. So the SLL is basically
seen as the weakest link at both London Bridge and Victoria (central),
getting the boot from both of them, though space is then offered up in
Victoria eastern for its SLL2 replacement to Bellingham. Of course
this also precludes a stop at Battersea Park, because trains from the
eastern side of Victoria can't even get on to the central side's
tracks to get to Battersea Park in the first place (and making complex
alterations to enable this would no doubt be unwelcome).

Anyway I didn't really mean to focus so much on the issues surrounding
the oncoming ELLX link to Clapham Jn - I think it's great that it's
happening, it completes the picture of an orbital route around London
- but I don't think it's great because it'll look all neat and tidy on
a map, I think it's great because it'll be genuinely useful.

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On Feb 12, 6:23*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 12 Feb, 16:04, "Peter Masson" wrote:





"Mizter T" wrote

The other issue is probably future lack of trains to and from
Battersea Park from SLL destinations. I think a good number of people
using Battersea Park via the SLL are actually changing for trains to
Clapham Jn, so the ELLX will provide a direct service. However the big
plans for Battersea Power Station's redevelopment mean that it will
become a centre of employment, so it's a bit of a shame to lose direct
trains there from the SLL. Plus Battersea Park station is obviously
great for getting to Battersea Park itself, which is a rather splendid
park. Passengers will of course be able to change at either Clapham Jn
or Victoria to get to and from Battersea Park, or they could walk or
get a bus from Wandsworth Rd station.

AIUI the SLL platforms at Battersea Park are doomed anyway, as indeed is the
SLL between Wandsworth Road and Battersea Park, as the South London Metro 10
car scheme will involve extending the Down Slow platform across the
junction.

Yeah, somewhere in the midst of my second lengthy post I did mention
the fact that the platform lengthening plans would sever the SLL/
Atlantic Lines at Battersea Park - I then threw in a query as to
whether these plans will actually reach fruition any time soon, as I
suppose the recession might cast a shadow over it all. The thing with
the RUS modus operadi is that we hear what the planners'
recommendations are, but we never then hear what the masterplan of
action is from DfT Rail (cue hilarity) - thus we're left guessing
whether the new Victoria to Bellingham service will actually
materialise. If I was to guess I'd say it would happen, and that it's
in the DfT's gameplan, but at present it has not yet been finalised. I
wonder how long we'll wait for an announcement - the longer there
isn't one, the more people will wonder whether it's ever going to
happen or not.

It's silly as the DfT could avoid adverse publicity by making an
announcement sooner rather than later, though I suppose it's possible
that they might wait and see if there is any uproar - if there is
they'll react, if there isn't they'll forget about it - in other words
the delay in itself is a kind of sounding board. Perhaps I'm crediting
them with being somewhat more wiley than they actually are!

The other thing about the Victoria - Bellingham service ('SLL2' as
I've called it) that I didn't mention earlier is that it conveniently
runs out of Victoria's less busy eastern side, thus freeing up
platforms in the central side of the station - the South London RUS
highlights this as a benefit of this plan. So the SLL is basically
seen as the weakest link at both London Bridge and Victoria (central),
getting the boot from both of them, though space is then offered up in
Victoria eastern for its SLL2 replacement to Bellingham. Of course
this also precludes a stop *at Battersea Park, because trains from the
eastern side of Victoria can't even get on to the central side's
tracks to get to Battersea Park in the first place (and making complex
alterations to enable this would no doubt be unwelcome).

I'm sure they can. There's a crossover that can be reached from
platforms 3 - 8, leading to the "Brighton Slow" tracks.

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On Feb 12, 6:31*pm, MIG wrote:
On Feb 12, 6:23*pm, Mizter T wrote:





On 12 Feb, 16:04, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

The other issue is probably future lack of trains to and from
Battersea Park from SLL destinations. I think a good number of people
using Battersea Park via the SLL are actually changing for trains to
Clapham Jn, so the ELLX will provide a direct service. However the big
plans for Battersea Power Station's redevelopment mean that it will
become a centre of employment, so it's a bit of a shame to lose direct
trains there from the SLL. Plus Battersea Park station is obviously
great for getting to Battersea Park itself, which is a rather splendid
park. Passengers will of course be able to change at either Clapham Jn
or Victoria to get to and from Battersea Park, or they could walk or
get a bus from Wandsworth Rd station.

AIUI the SLL platforms at Battersea Park are doomed anyway, as indeed is the
SLL between Wandsworth Road and Battersea Park, as the South London Metro 10
car scheme will involve extending the Down Slow platform across the
junction.

Yeah, somewhere in the midst of my second lengthy post I did mention
the fact that the platform lengthening plans would sever the SLL/
Atlantic Lines at Battersea Park - I then threw in a query as to
whether these plans will actually reach fruition any time soon, as I
suppose the recession might cast a shadow over it all. The thing with
the RUS modus operadi is that we hear what the planners'
recommendations are, but we never then hear what the masterplan of
action is from DfT Rail (cue hilarity) - thus we're left guessing
whether the new Victoria to Bellingham service will actually
materialise. If I was to guess I'd say it would happen, and that it's
in the DfT's gameplan, but at present it has not yet been finalised. I
wonder how long we'll wait for an announcement - the longer there
isn't one, the more people will wonder whether it's ever going to
happen or not.

It's silly as the DfT could avoid adverse publicity by making an
announcement sooner rather than later, though I suppose it's possible
that they might wait and see if there is any uproar - if there is
they'll react, if there isn't they'll forget about it - in other words
the delay in itself is a kind of sounding board. Perhaps I'm crediting
them with being somewhat more wiley than they actually are!

The other thing about the Victoria - Bellingham service ('SLL2' as
I've called it) that I didn't mention earlier is that it conveniently
runs out of Victoria's less busy eastern side, thus freeing up
platforms in the central side of the station - the South London RUS
highlights this as a benefit of this plan. So the SLL is basically
seen as the weakest link at both London Bridge and Victoria (central),
getting the boot from both of them, though space is then offered up in
Victoria eastern for its SLL2 replacement to Bellingham. Of course
this also precludes a stop *at Battersea Park, because trains from the
eastern side of Victoria can't even get on to the central side's
tracks to get to Battersea Park in the first place (and making complex
alterations to enable this would no doubt be unwelcome).

I'm sure they can. *There's a crossover that can be reached from
platforms 3 - 8, leading to the "Brighton Slow" tracks.

(I did your trick of posting before finishing.)

I was going to say that platform 8 is already in regular use by
Southern services (or at least it has been in recent years).

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

"Mizter T" wrote ...
Anyway I didn't really mean to focus so much on the issues surrounding
the oncoming ELLX link to Clapham Jn - I think it's great that it's
happening, it completes the picture of an orbital route around London
- but I don't think it's great because it'll look all neat and tidy on
a map, I think it's great because it'll be genuinely useful.

I agree and all credit to Boris for bringing Ken's dream to reality. And I'm
not just being snarky; Ken saw the potential of the North London Line in his
GLC days, and has carried on recognizing that underfunded inner London
routes can be developed for Londoners, and fighting for funding. Boris has
done well not to cut this like he has cut all the other projects - but he
needs to prove himself by focussing on the next lines to be sequestered. As
Ken would have done. Indeed, as Ken announced he would do.
--

Andrew

Interviewer: Tonight I'm interviewing that famous nurse, Florence
Nightingale
Tommy Cooper (dressed as a nurse): Sir Florence Nightingale
Interviewer: *Sir* Florence Nightingale?
Tommy Cooper: I'm a Night Nurse

Campaign For The Real Tommy Cooper

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On 12 Feb, 18:31, MIG wrote:

On Feb 12, 6:23*pm, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

The other thing about the Victoria - Bellingham service ('SLL2' as
I've called it) that I didn't mention earlier is that it conveniently
runs out of Victoria's less busy eastern side, thus freeing up
platforms in the central side of the station - the South London RUS
highlights this as a benefit of this plan. So the SLL is basically
seen as the weakest link at both London Bridge and Victoria (central),
getting the boot from both of them, though space is then offered up in
Victoria eastern for its SLL2 replacement to Bellingham. Of course
this also precludes a stop *at Battersea Park, because trains from the
eastern side of Victoria can't even get on to the central side's
tracks to get to Battersea Park in the first place (and making complex
alterations to enable this would no doubt be unwelcome).

I'm sure they can. *There's a crossover that can be reached from
platforms 3 - 8, leading to the "Brighton Slow" tracks.


I dithered before writing that and in retrospect it's silly - I know
full well that there's a connection as platform 8 is served by both
Southeastern and Southern trains. However I though that was the only
one eastern side platform - platform 8 - that could access the central
side's tracks (perhaps I should actually be talking about eastern and
central divisions - sounds a bit like a yankee sports league!). It's
highly likely I'm wrong!

Therefore I suppose it is possible that the replacement 'SLL2' service
to Bellingham could call at Battersea Park at least until the
platforms get extended there (if they ever do). Not sure if a four car
Networker could go down that way though, and if it did whether it
would fit on the platform at Battersea Park.

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On Feb 12, 6:44*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 12 Feb, 18:31, MIG wrote:





On Feb 12, 6:23*pm, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

The other thing about the Victoria - Bellingham service ('SLL2' as
I've called it) that I didn't mention earlier is that it conveniently
runs out of Victoria's less busy eastern side, thus freeing up
platforms in the central side of the station - the South London RUS
highlights this as a benefit of this plan. So the SLL is basically
seen as the weakest link at both London Bridge and Victoria (central),
getting the boot from both of them, though space is then offered up in
Victoria eastern for its SLL2 replacement to Bellingham. Of course
this also precludes a stop *at Battersea Park, because trains from the
eastern side of Victoria can't even get on to the central side's
tracks to get to Battersea Park in the first place (and making complex
alterations to enable this would no doubt be unwelcome).

I'm sure they can. *There's a crossover that can be reached from
platforms 3 - 8, leading to the "Brighton Slow" tracks.

I dithered before writing that and in retrospect it's silly - I know
full well that there's a connection as platform 8 is served by both
Southeastern and Southern trains. However I though that was the only
one eastern side platform - platform 8 - that could access the central
side's tracks (perhaps I should actually be talking about eastern and
central divisions - sounds a bit like a yankee sports league!). It's
highly likely I'm wrong!

Therefore I suppose it is possible that the replacement 'SLL2' service
to Bellingham could call at Battersea Park at least until the
platforms get extended there (if they ever do). Not sure if a four car
Networker could go down that way though, and if it did whether it
would fit on the platform at Battersea Park.

It could be run by 319s ...

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On 12 Feb, 16:15, "Batman55" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_...eleaseid=20938

Hallelujah! Phase 2b of the East London Line Extension, which will
link the existing line south of Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction via
the 'South London Line' railway has finally been given the full go-
ahead after an eon of prevarication, in part the result of squabbling
between the DfT and TfL/ the Mayor of London over funding. Whilst the
latest negotiations are almost certain to have had a political angle,
what with the different political hues of Boris and the government,
this is a saga that has been going on for a lot longer than the
current Mayor is likely to have known what ELLX phase 2b actually
meant (which should perhaps be borne in mind when it comes to handing
out the credit - but fair play to him in so far as he recognised the
importance of the project and pushed ahead with it).

The East London Line link to Clapham Jn will provide an abundance of
orbital journey possibilities.

Phase 2b is shown on this map in light blue (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa..._route_map.pdf

Funny, whilst on a trip today from Bromley via Clapham Jn, Willesden, Gospel
Oak and Barking (yes I am!) and back to Bromley, I wondered why they don't
switch the SL service from London Bridge at Wandsworth Road to Olympia (or
some sensible point along the WLL)? Solves DH problem and gives another way
of avoiding central London.

Er, that wouldn't actually solve anything I'm afraid to say - the SLL
service is being evicted from London Bridge and is essentially being
replaced by the ELLX to Clapham Jn plus by a possible new Victoria -
Peckham Rye - Bellingham service calling at all stations (except
Battersea Park).

It is physically possible for trains to go direct from Wandsworth Road
straight onto the WLL for West Brompton, Kensington Olympia and the
rest. However this would miss out the massive interchange hub that is
Clapham Junction! I'm sure a direct service like this would be useful
to many people, but by heading for Clapham Jn the service will instead
be more useful to more people - those wanting to head up the WLL can
change at CJ for trains that go up that way. London Overground will
offer same or cross platform interchange at platforms 1&2, though
passengers who want Southern WLL trains will need to get over to
platform 16 on the other side of the station.


Really need to do something about the speed limits on the WLL though!

MaxB

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...


It is physically possible for trains to go direct from Wandsworth Road
straight onto the WLL for West Brompton, Kensington Olympia and the
rest.

They should do that once or twice a day, at start or end of service, to get
a train from NXG to/from the WLL. Could allow half of that so called XC
'ghost bus' service to be binned...

Paul S

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On 12 Feb, 18:43, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote ...

Anyway I didn't really mean to focus so much on the issues surrounding
the oncoming ELLX link to Clapham Jn - I think it's great that it's
happening, it completes the picture of an orbital route around London
- but I don't think it's great because it'll look all neat and tidy on
a map, I think it's great because it'll be genuinely useful.

I agree and all credit to Boris for bringing Ken's dream to reality. And I'm
not just being snarky; Ken saw the potential of the North London Line in his
GLC days, and has carried on recognizing that underfunded inner London
routes can be developed for Londoners, and fighting for funding. Boris has
done well not to cut this like he has cut all the other projects - but he
needs to prove himself by focussing on the next lines to be sequestered. As
Ken would have done. Indeed, as Ken announced he would do.


I absolutely agree about Ken and indeed I've made much the same point
in the past - Livingstone has long had a passionate involvement in
London's transport, and he brought this heritage to the table on
becoming Mayor which led on to projects such as the ELLX and the
London Overground takeover. In other words this was his doing, no
doubt!

TfL never got hold of Southern's Metro routes but we can at least be
thankful that their fingerprints are all over the franchise
requirements (more staffed and improved stations, more services etc)
thanks to lobbying by TfL under the old Mayor.

Afraid I can't really see Boris keenly pursuing the strategy of
transferring custodianship of London rail routes over to TfL. I
suppose it's possible that some things could change when the planets
next align themselves, i.e. when the Mayor and the government are of
the same hue (in 2010), though nothing in particular appears to be on
the agenda in that regard.

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On 12 Feb, 19:05, "Paul Scott" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

It is physically possible for trains to go direct from Wandsworth Road
straight onto the WLL for West Brompton, Kensington Olympia and the
rest.

They should do that once or twice a day, at start or end of service, to get
a train from NXG to/from the WLL. *Could allow half of that so called XC
'ghost bus' service to be binned...


Yes, I suggested the same myself back in those 'ghost bus' threads!
The 'LO trackbasher's special', at especially inhospitable hours!

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

Mizter T wrote:
On 12 Feb, 19:05, "Paul Scott" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

It is physically possible for trains to go direct from Wandsworth
Road straight onto the WLL for West Brompton, Kensington Olympia
and the rest.

They should do that once or twice a day, at start or end of service,
to get a train from NXG to/from the WLL. Could allow half of that so
called XC 'ghost bus' service to be binned...


Yes, I suggested the same myself back in those 'ghost bus' threads!
The 'LO trackbasher's special', at especially inhospitable hours!

We could write to the DfT and earn a consutancy fee...

How about diverting those one of those Greenford shuttles from Paddington to
Kensington Olympia as well? Job done...

Paul S

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On 12 Feb, 19:17, Mizter T wrote:
On 12 Feb, 19:05, "Paul Scott" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

It is physically possible for trains to go direct from Wandsworth Road
straight onto the WLL for West Brompton, Kensington Olympia and the
rest.

They should do that once or twice a day, at start or end of service, to get
a train from NXG to/from the WLL. *Could allow half of that so called XC
'ghost bus' service to be binned...

Yes, I suggested the same myself back in those 'ghost bus' threads!
The 'LO trackbasher's special', at especially inhospitable hours!

The DfT has actually announced that an Ealing Broadway Wandsworth
Road rail bus replacement rail replacement service (IYSWIM!) is going
to be part of the new Southern franchise. And what an awkward bugger
to run it's going to be, as one of Southern's Class 171 units will
have to be diverted to service it. See The Ticket Collector for the
saga, at: http://theticketcollector.wordpress.com

Specifically for the latest announcement:
http://theticketcollector.wordpress....ice-part-iii5/

Regards
Brian

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On Feb 12, 6:44*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 12 Feb, 18:31, MIG wrote:





On Feb 12, 6:23*pm, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

The other thing about the Victoria - Bellingham service ('SLL2' as
I've called it) that I didn't mention earlier is that it conveniently
runs out of Victoria's less busy eastern side, thus freeing up
platforms in the central side of the station - the South London RUS
highlights this as a benefit of this plan. So the SLL is basically
seen as the weakest link at both London Bridge and Victoria (central),
getting the boot from both of them, though space is then offered up in
Victoria eastern for its SLL2 replacement to Bellingham. Of course
this also precludes a stop *at Battersea Park, because trains from the
eastern side of Victoria can't even get on to the central side's
tracks to get to Battersea Park in the first place (and making complex
alterations to enable this would no doubt be unwelcome).

I'm sure they can. *There's a crossover that can be reached from
platforms 3 - 8, leading to the "Brighton Slow" tracks.

I dithered before writing that and in retrospect it's silly - I know
full well that there's a connection as platform 8 is served by both
Southeastern and Southern trains. However I though that was the only
one eastern side platform - platform 8 - that could access the central
side's tracks (perhaps I should actually be talking about eastern and
central divisions - sounds a bit like a yankee sports league!). It's
highly likely I'm wrong!


I don't think that platform 8 is regularly used by Southeastern
trains. It is accessed by from the Southern gateline and there is a
gate between it and platform 7. Physically, the pointwork allows all
of platforms 3-8 access to/from the 'Brighton' lines at Victoria
(rather than via Stewarts Lane), but I can't remember if the
signalling allows it.

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Feb 12, 6:44 pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 12 Feb, 18:31, MIG wrote:





On Feb 12, 6:23 pm, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

The other thing about the Victoria - Bellingham service ('SLL2' as
I've called it) that I didn't mention earlier is that it conveniently
runs out of Victoria's less busy eastern side, thus freeing up
platforms in the central side of the station - the South London RUS
highlights this as a benefit of this plan. So the SLL is basically
seen as the weakest link at both London Bridge and Victoria (central),
getting the boot from both of them, though space is then offered up in
Victoria eastern for its SLL2 replacement to Bellingham. Of course
this also precludes a stop at Battersea Park, because trains from the
eastern side of Victoria can't even get on to the central side's
tracks to get to Battersea Park in the first place (and making complex
alterations to enable this would no doubt be unwelcome).

I'm sure they can. There's a crossover that can be reached from
platforms 3 - 8, leading to the "Brighton Slow" tracks.

I dithered before writing that and in retrospect it's silly - I know
full well that there's a connection as platform 8 is served by both
Southeastern and Southern trains. However I though that was the only
one eastern side platform - platform 8 - that could access the central
side's tracks (perhaps I should actually be talking about eastern and
central divisions - sounds a bit like a yankee sports league!). It's
highly likely I'm wrong!


I don't think that platform 8 is regularly used by Southeastern
trains. It is accessed by from the Southern gateline and there is a
gate between it and platform 7. Physically, the pointwork allows all
of platforms 3-8 access to/from the 'Brighton' lines at Victoria
(rather than via Stewarts Lane), but I can't remember if the
signalling allows it.

It certainly does.

Up Brighton Slow VC532
Theatre Light
Platforms 3 to 15



Position Light
Calling on

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

"Andy" wrote

I don't think that platform 8 is regularly used by Southeastern
trains. It is accessed by from the Southern gateline and there is a
gate between it and platform 7. Physically, the pointwork allows all
of platforms 3-8 access to/from the 'Brighton' lines at Victoria
(rather than via Stewarts Lane), but I can't remember if the
signalling allows it.

IIRC platform 8 has its own gates, and can't be accessed through the gates
to any other platform. It has at least until quite recently been used by
Southeastern trains. Time was, of course, when it was a full length
platform, and regularly used by - and specifically labelled for - the Golden
Arrow.

Peter

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

wrote

The DfT has actually announced that an Ealing Broadway Wandsworth
Road rail bus replacement rail replacement service (IYSWIM!) is going
to be part of the new Southern franchise. And what an awkward bugger
to run it's going to be, as one of Southern's Class 171 units will
have to be diverted to service it. See The Ticket Collector for the
saga, at: http://theticketcollector.wordpress.com

Can it reverse conveniently at Ealing Broadway - and if not, how much
further will it have to go - the bay platform at Hayes&H, Greenford?

Peter

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On Feb 12, 4:23*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 12 Feb, 14:49, MIG wrote:



(snip)


Regarding connections at Queen's Road Peckham (QRP) and Peckham Rye -
for reasons unclear to me the new (Dec '08) timetable removed 2tph off-
peak from London Bridge via Peckham Rye, Tulse Hill and West Norwood
to Smitham, reducing the service from 8tph to 6tph. My recollection is
that these ran just in front of of or behind the SLL service, so their
loss from Peckham Rye, QRP and South Bermondsey wasn't a big deal.
However the loss of the SLL service would further reduce this to 4tph
from these stations, unless the SLL trains were replaced by something
else - I imagine that they would be but this is something to look out
for.

I've just been trying to work out a possible reason for the loss of
two trains per hour from LB via Queens Road.

They seem to have been sacrificed to make way for doubling the
previous Horsham/Tonbridge services to two to Horsham plus two to
Reigate/Tonbridge. The number of departures from LB terminus is the
same.

It's not quite as straightforward as that, because the latter run from
Charing Cross, but the fast Tattenham Corners now start from the
terminus instead of Charing Cross.

(I don't really see why off-peak departures from LB terminus need to
be restricted, but maybe it's the Croydon area that can't fit them in
now.)

In all that, Smitham loses one train per hour and Tattenhan Corner
gains one, because there's an hourly Purley - Tattenham Corner.

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On Feb 12, 8:23*pm, Andy wrote:
On Feb 12, 6:44*pm, Mizter T wrote:





On 12 Feb, 18:31, MIG wrote:

On Feb 12, 6:23*pm, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

The other thing about the Victoria - Bellingham service ('SLL2' as
I've called it) that I didn't mention earlier is that it conveniently
runs out of Victoria's less busy eastern side, thus freeing up
platforms in the central side of the station - the South London RUS
highlights this as a benefit of this plan. So the SLL is basically
seen as the weakest link at both London Bridge and Victoria (central),
getting the boot from both of them, though space is then offered up in
Victoria eastern for its SLL2 replacement to Bellingham. Of course
this also precludes a stop *at Battersea Park, because trains from the
eastern side of Victoria can't even get on to the central side's
tracks to get to Battersea Park in the first place (and making complex
alterations to enable this would no doubt be unwelcome).

I'm sure they can. *There's a crossover that can be reached from
platforms 3 - 8, leading to the "Brighton Slow" tracks.

I dithered before writing that and in retrospect it's silly - I know
full well that there's a connection as platform 8 is served by both
Southeastern and Southern trains. However I though that was the only
one eastern side platform - platform 8 - that could access the central
side's tracks (perhaps I should actually be talking about eastern and
central divisions - sounds a bit like a yankee sports league!). It's
highly likely I'm wrong!

I don't think that platform 8 is regularly used by Southeastern
trains. It is accessed by from the Southern gateline and *there is a
gate between it and platform 7. Physically, the pointwork allows all
of platforms 3-8 access to/from the 'Brighton' lines at Victoria
(rather than via Stewarts Lane), but I can't remember if the
signalling allows it.-

My experience is that it's used more by Southeastern than Southern,
and it actually has its own gateline, because there's a very big wall
between it and platform 9.

In fact it's a horrible bottleneck. If you arrive at platform 8 in
the peak (as I've done on Southeastern trains many times) in anything
other than the first couple of coaches, it's best to walk towards the
back and then down platform 7.

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On Feb 12, 8:22*pm, wrote:
On 12 Feb, 19:17, Mizter T wrote:

On 12 Feb, 19:05, "Paul Scott" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

It is physically possible for trains to go direct from Wandsworth Road
straight onto the WLL for West Brompton, Kensington Olympia and the
rest.

They should do that once or twice a day, at start or end of service, to get
a train from NXG to/from the WLL. *Could allow half of that so called XC
'ghost bus' service to be binned...

Yes, I suggested the same myself back in those 'ghost bus' threads!
The 'LO trackbasher's special', at especially inhospitable hours!

The DfT has actually announced that an Ealing Broadway Wandsworth
Road rail bus replacement rail replacement service (IYSWIM!) is going
to be part of the new Southern franchise. And what an awkward bugger
to run it's going to be, as one of Southern's Class 171 units will
have to be diverted to service it.

Delightfully insane - gawd bless DafT. If it happens, my money's on an
SO service - the flymo fleet is less stretched and engineering work
provides a good reason to cancel it on a regular basis.

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On 12 Feb, 20:42, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Andy" wrote

I don't think that platform 8 is regularly used by Southeastern
trains. It is accessed by from the Southern gateline and *there is a
gate between it and platform 7. Physically, the pointwork allows all
of platforms 3-8 access to/from the 'Brighton' lines at Victoria
(rather than via Stewarts Lane), but I can't remember if the
signalling allows it.

IIRC platform 8 has its own gates, and can't be accessed through the gates
to any other platform. It has at least until quite recently been used by
Southeastern trains. Time was, of course, when it was a full length
platform, and regularly used by - and specifically labelled for - the Golden
Arrow.


Platform 8 does indeed have its own gateline - whilst it can't be
accessed from any of the central side platforms it is possible to
reach it from the eastern side platforms by walking all the way up to
the end of platform 7 (there are cycle racks up this way) - this map
of the station illustrates this (PDF):
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/documents/For Passengers/Station Maps/
4510_Victoria Station Map.pdf

My recollection is that it is attended to by Southeastern gateline
staff.

Southeastern trains certainly do make regular use of platform 8 - the
Dartford trains arrive and depart from there sometimes, perhaps it
normally only happens around peak times (?).

Didn't know that was the Golden Arrow platform - I'll remember that
next time I'm hopping on an EMU there!

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On 12 Feb, 20:22, wrote:

On 12 Feb, 19:17, Mizter T wrote:

On 12 Feb, 19:05, "Paul Scott" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

It is physically possible for trains to go direct from Wandsworth Road
straight onto the WLL for West Brompton, Kensington Olympia and
the rest.

They should do that once or twice a day, at start or end of service, to get
a train from NXG to/from the WLL. *Could allow half of that so called XC
'ghost bus' service to be binned...

Yes, I suggested the same myself back in those 'ghost bus' threads!
The 'LO trackbasher's special', at especially inhospitable hours!

The DfT has actually announced that an Ealing Broadway Wandsworth
Road rail bus replacement rail replacement service (IYSWIM!) is going
to be part of the new Southern franchise. And what an awkward bugger
to run it's going to be, as one of Southern's Class 171 units will
have to be diverted to service it. See The Ticket Collector for the
saga, at: http://theticketcollector.wordpress.com

Specifically for the latest announcement:
http://theticketcollector.wordpress....parliamentaryg...

Regards
Brian


Intriguing stuff, thanks for highlighting that. It'd be good to have
some further verification that this is indeed the plan, but the bit on
the Ticket Collector blog does sound convincing.

Of course, just because Southern will be responsible for running it
doesn't mean it actually has to be run by one of Southern's own trains
- they could reach an agreement with FGW or even London Overground to
get them to run it, though whether FGW or LO would be that keen is
another matter!

I still think the whole thing's pretty absurd.

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On 13 Feb, 01:31, Mizter T wrote:
Intriguing stuff, thanks for highlighting that. It'd be good to have
some further verification that this is indeed the plan, but the bit on
the Ticket Collector blog does sound convincing.

I think they overstate the difficulty of running the service. All they
need to do is divide an off-peak Uckfield at East Croydon (or the next
station south if that's too hard). And the trains are based at
Selhurst, which is well positioned to send one directly up the route.
Or one of the Marshlink trains could be sent to Ealing and back on
its way to/from Selhurst.

U

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On Feb 13, 1:20*am, Mizter T wrote:
On 12 Feb, 20:42, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Andy" wrote

I don't think that platform 8 is regularly used by Southeastern
trains. It is accessed by from the Southern gateline and *there is a
gate between it and platform 7. Physically, the pointwork allows all
of platforms 3-8 access to/from the 'Brighton' lines at Victoria
(rather than via Stewarts Lane), but I can't remember if the
signalling allows it.

IIRC platform 8 has its own gates, and can't be accessed through the gates
to any other platform. It has at least until quite recently been used by
Southeastern trains. Time was, of course, when it was a full length
platform, and regularly used by - and specifically labelled for - the Golden
Arrow.

Platform 8 does indeed have its own gateline - whilst it can't be
accessed from any of the central side platforms it is possible to
reach it from the eastern side platforms by walking all the way up to
the end of platform 7 (there are cycle racks up this way) - this map
of the station illustrates this (PDF):http://www.networkrail.co.uk/documen...engers/Station Maps/
4510_Victoria Station Map.pdf

My recollection is that it is attended to by Southeastern gateline
staff.

Southeastern trains certainly do make regular use of platform 8 - the
Dartford trains arrive and depart from there sometimes, perhaps it
normally only happens around peak times (?).


I just had a quick look on the Travelline North East website and
Platform 8 does only appear to see timetabled use by the Dartford
trains during the peak. At other times these seem to use platforms 6
or 7 (I only checked the morning peak though). Maybe the gateline
staff change, depending on who is using the platforms, the last time
that I used it was on a Saturday when platforms 16-19 were out of use
and Southern were using it.

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On 12 Feb, 19:24, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
On 12 Feb, 19:05, "Paul Scott" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

It is physically possible for trains to go direct from Wandsworth
Road straight onto the WLL for West Brompton, Kensington Olympia
and the rest.

They should do that once or twice a day, at start or end of service,
to get a train from NXG to/from the WLL. Could allow half of that so
called XC 'ghost bus' service to be binned...

Yes, I suggested the same myself back in those 'ghost bus' threads!
The 'LO trackbasher's special', at especially inhospitable hours!

We could write to the DfT and earn a consutancy fee...

How about diverting those one of those Greenford shuttles from Paddington to
Kensington Olympia as well? *Job done...

Paul S

165s are not route cleared and are probably out of gauge - so FGW
would need additional rolling stock.. which would involve the DfT in
deciding to move some trains around - and it says it doesn't decide
what or how many trains a franchise gets...

Tony

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

Am Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:35:01 UTC, schrieb Mizter T
auf uk.railway :


http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_...eleaseid=20938

Hallelujah! Phase 2b of the East London Line Extension, which will
link the existing line south of Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction via
the 'South London Line' railway has finally been given the full go-
ahead

in above linked statement I read "phase two of the East London Line,
which will complete the London Overground network and create an
orbital railway around the capital."

That would mean that the full orbital line is to be operated under
the "London Overground" brand and by LOROL, right?


Cheers,
L.W.


-- -----------------------------------------------------

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On 13 Feb, 14:36, "Lüko Willms" wrote:
* That would mean that the full orbital line is to be operated under
the "London Overground" brand and by LOROL, right?

The North London Line and West London Line are already under London
Overground control. The East London Line will open in the next year-
ish (as a London Overground/LOROL service), and this new branch will
mean trains from the ELL run along the South London Line to meet the
West London Line at Clapham Junction.

There won't be proper orbital trains, as the ELL/SLL will be operated
separately from the other lines. You'll have to change at Clapham
Junction and Dalston, Canonbury or Highbury to do a full lap. Possibly
at Willesden Junction too.

U

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On 13 Feb, 14:59, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 13 Feb, 14:36, "Lüko Willms" wrote:

* That would mean that the full orbital line is to be operated under
the "London Overground" brand and by LOROL, right?

The North London Line and West London Line are already under London
Overground control. The East London Line will open in the next year-
ish (as a London Overground/LOROL service), and this new branch will
mean trains from the ELL run along the South London Line to meet the
West London Line at Clapham Junction.

There won't be proper orbital trains, as the ELL/SLL will be operated
separately from the other lines. You'll have to change at Clapham
Junction and Dalston, Canonbury or Highbury to do a full lap. Possibly
at Willesden Junction too.


This TfL produced map *might* help to illustrate the matter - I found
it on the London Reconnections blog (note it's fairly large):
http://mizter.t.googlepages.com/ellx2.jpg

I say *might* as it doesn't do a good job of showing the situation at
Willesden Junction (top left). The West London Line which comes up
from Clapham Junction (via Shepherd's Bush) is shown as approaching
Willesden Jn station from the south west, as if trains could then
continue up on the DC line to Harlesden and eventually to Watford Jn -
that's wrong, as the line actually approaches more of less directly
from the south.

The line used by London Overground trains is shown on this streetmap
just above the arrow:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/oldmap.sr...2259&ay=182424


This means that trains can in fact travel from Clapham Junction up the
West London Line (WLL) through Willesden Junction and then on to
Kensal Rise and points east on the North London Line (NLL). A few peak
times services currently do just that, otherwise passengers have to
change between WLL and NLL trains at Willesden Jn. In the future there
may be more through services between the WLL and NLL.

Also, to elaborate on the Dalston situation - there will be two
separate stations there, Dalston Junction (on the ELLX) and Dalston
Kingsland (on the NLL) - the former is being (re)built at the moment
whilst the latter already exists. If I've got this right, on the ELLX
8tph will continue on from Dalton Jn to Highbury & Islington (calling
at Canonbury) whilst 4tph will terminate at Dalston Jn.

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

Mizter T wrote:

Also, to elaborate on the Dalston situation - there will be two
separate stations there, Dalston Junction (on the ELLX) and Dalston
Kingsland (on the NLL) - the former is being (re)built at the moment
whilst the latter already exists. If I've got this right, on the ELLX
8tph will continue on from Dalton Jn to Highbury & Islington (calling
at Canonbury) whilst 4tph will terminate at Dalston Jn.

Another point that isn't clear, is what happens when the extra 4 tph from
Clapham Junction via the SLL, and the extra 2 tph peak only trains to/from
Crystal Palace enter the mix. AFAICT that could mean up to 14 tph extended
to H&I, as there only ever seems to be New Cross - Dalston Junction
terminators mentioned...

Paul S

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On 13 Feb, 15:41, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Another point that isn't clear, is what happens when the extra 4 tph from
Clapham Junction via the SLL, and the extra 2 tph peak only trains to/from
Crystal Palace enter the mix. *AFAICT that could mean up to 14 tph extended
to H&I, as there only ever seems to be New Cross - Dalston Junction
terminators mentioned...

It's been stated that the West Croydons will terminate at Dalston
Junction with New Crosses and Crystal Palaces running through. I don't
know how the peak extras or the phase 2 trains fit into this.

U

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

Am Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:59:01 UTC, schrieb Mr Thant
auf uk.railway :

There won't be proper orbital trains, as the ELL/SLL will be operated
separately from the other lines.

But nevertheless under the "London Overground" brand, right?


Cheers,
L.W.

-- -----------------------------------------------------

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On 13 Feb, 16:13, "Lüko Willms" wrote:

Am Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:59:01 UTC, *schrieb Mr Thant
*auf uk.railway :

There won't be proper orbital trains, as the ELL/SLL will be operated
separately from the other lines.

* But nevertheless under the "London Overground" brand, right?


Yes - TfL is responsible for these services, LOROL will operate them
(as part of the "London Rail Concession"), and they will be branded as
"London Overground".

Incidentally LO doesn't actually use terms like North London Line/
WLL/ ELL etc in passenger facing communications - instead they gets
described as "Stratford - Richmond", "Clapham Jn - Willesden Jn" etc.

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

A friend told me Wapping ELL station is open, and he saw a crowd of people
coming out last week. What might he have seen?

East London Line phase 2b to Clapham Jn is GO!
 

On 14 Feb, 04:04, "John Rowland"
wrote:
A friend told me Wapping ELL station is open, and he saw a crowd of people
coming out last week. What might he have seen?

Brunel Museum organised a visit? Though I didn't hear about anything
like that, it's not on their website http://www.brunel-museum.org.uk/
and construction work is busily continuing so I'd say that's
unlikely.

Otherwise the usual suspects I guess - visits from TfL/ GLA/ DfT/
local council bigwigs, inspection by the Fire Brigade or HMRI,
journalists being given a peek, the contractors BBCJV showing their
work off to someone, or simply a visit from the senior people on the
project - no idea really. Or were they simply the rank and file
workers - the simplest explanation!