wrote:

I chose not to live in South London, because the transport links are
so unspeakably bad (with PAYG being a relevant, but minor, aspect of
the general transport dreadfulness of South London). You could have
done the same. Instead, you agreed to live in a horrible desert,
presumably because the rent was cheaper or something.

Or because it's nicer/greener/closer to jobs/young people can actually
afford to buy here.. Unusually inflammatory for you, John.

--
Current nearest station: Shortlands

On Mar 6, 10:39*am, Tom Barry wrote:
solar penguin wrote:
Whenever it starts, it'll be weird to have PAYG finally becoming at
least vaguely useful, rather than just an awkward and inconvenient
replacement for Savers bus tickets like it is at present. *But somehow I
can't imagine it ever happening. *I mean, what are the cahnces of pepole
running and working in public transport ever doing something vaguely
useful for their customers...?

Meanwhile, in the real world, PAYG is extremely useful and has made
travelling by tube and bus much more pleasant*. *Face it, if people
*didn't* find it useful and convenient we wouldn't be clamouring for it
to be extended to National Rail, would we?

It's not particularly hard to pretend that people running public
transport do nothing useful when you ignore the useful things they do.

Takeup of PAYG is offered as proof that people find it useful and
convenient, totally ignoring the fact that its introduction
corresponded to a huge hiking of cash fares. Of course people use it;
they are punished with what are effectively penalty fares if they
don't.

The reason why people are "clamouring for it to be extended" is to end
the injustice of being punished to coerce them to do something that
they can't actually do (except by moving house). The resentment isn't
going to be forgotten lightly.

A combination of Travelcards, bus passes, reasonably priced zone
extensions and a reasonable attitude from TfL would do the job just as
well, and still could without the extension of PAYG.

On Mar 6, 9:53*am, "solar penguin"
wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote:

Now can anyone tell me what fare will be charged to go from Richmond
to Stratford *(1) entirely by tube via Z1 (2) entirely by Overground
not via Z1 and (3) by tube and train via Z1 and using SWT from
Waterloo???

Err it's OK you don't really have to answer it but it's the classic
problem case and surely represents the real nightmare that sits behind
trying to introduce a scheme like NR PAYG when no one is minded to
just have one overarching farescale. *Another fun combination might
be Balham to Harrow and Wealdstone!

Well, at least the Balham end of the journey won't be too much of a
problem. *Unlike Richmond, Stratford or H&W, Balham's NR and Tube are
totally seperate with their own gatelines. *So "Balham (Northern)" and
"Balham (Southern)" can be in the PAYG system as two different stations
that just happen to have an OOSI between them.

A previous thread about Shepherds Bush suggests that that may not be
the case. Despite the buildings being separate, a poster reported
being charged as if going via the Central Line when entering the LO
station. It could be a one-off bug, but it's not obvious.

On Mar 7, 7:47*pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote:
solar penguin wrote:
Exactly. *It's a point I've made many times before. *At present, PAYG is
_only_ really useful for those people who just happen to live near a
Tube/Overground/DLR/etc. station. *(Does anyone know if they're the
majority of Londeners? *I don't think so, but it would be interesting to
see some statistics.)

They may not tell the full story though because being close to any
Tube/Overground/DLR/etc station doesn't mean it's your route. I for example
am close to Wanstead Park Overground, but the main station here is Forest
Gate NR. (And I don't think a crude partition of the area by nearest station
would remotely reflect anything.)

Er, leave out the DLR. A couple of stations now have machines for a
couple of months, but in general the DLR has not sold Oyster.

This is why cash fares on the DLR are a clue as to what LU cash fares
would have been if they hadn't been increased to coerce people into
using Oyster.

I wonder if the installation of machines will result in DLR cash fares
being increased?

On Mar 5, 7:30*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

much cut


IIRC there will not be any additional TOC station Oyster retailing so
even though PAYG will expand it will not be retailed via TOC ticket
machines - that was certainly the plan a long while ago and hence why
the Oyster Ticket Stop network was doubled in size to get outlets close
to stations. *If there has been any change on this front then it will
add timescale risk because of machine and software mods, testing and
commissioning etc on assets that have to keep working. *At least with
gates and validators it's either a software mod or a physical install of
something that is switched on later.

Does this mean that ticket offices will start selling newspapers and
crisps?

Seriously, a location at or near a station gives a shop loads of
business. If the customers wanting newspapers and crisps can't get
served because the shop is now filled with the ticket queue, the shop
will go out of business.

I don't think that there are many Oyster Ticket Stops right at
stations for that reason. Everyone wanting to top up will have to go
in two directions instead of just going to the station. The TOCs will
have to sell Oyster; I can't see any alternative.

MIG wrote in news:ae1f5bfe-3703-4402-939b-
:


Takeup of PAYG is offered as proof that people find it useful and
convenient, totally ignoring the fact that its introduction
corresponded to a huge hiking of cash fares. Of course people use it;
they are punished with what are effectively penalty fares if they
don't.

The reason why people are "clamouring for it to be extended" is to end
the injustice of being punished to coerce them to do something that
they can't actually do (except by moving house). The resentment isn't
going to be forgotten lightly.

A combination of Travelcards, bus passes, reasonably priced zone
extensions and a reasonable attitude from TfL would do the job just as
well, and still could without the extension of PAYG.

It will be interesting to see the effects Oyster has on Bus/Train/Tube use.

Take say a Kingston (Z6) to London commute:

Anytime Day Return £ 9.80
Anytime Day Travelcard £ 14.80

5 x Day Return £ 49.00
5 x Day Travelcard £ 74.00

Weekly season £ 36.20
Travelcard £ 47.60

Oyster PrePay peak single* £ 3.80
10 x Oyster PrePay £ 38.00

(* assumed based on current rates)

So somebody commuting to Waterloo (or Charing Cross, London Bridge etc)
won't benefit in a full five day week. The part time worker/occasional
traveller gets a 20% saving.

Somebody continuing their journey on the tube (e.g. to Bank) saves 20%
again (paying £38.00 on PrePay vs £47.60 for a travelcard) but somebody
continuing their journey by bus (a popular option at Waterloo) doesn't save
anything (and ought to be buying the Weekly season plus PrePay on the bus,
as this is cheaper than the travelcard). But they can now save 18% (paying
£7.60 /day vs £46.20/week) by switching to the tube.

And anybody buying a season to Waterloo and walking the rest of the way,
only using the tube when they are late or it is raining will be very
tempted to switch to PrePay and get the tube "for free" (actually
£1.80/week).

I'd suggest the overall effect of this is not just that many people will be
paying less for their commute (especally part timers, people working non-
standard hours and in Bank Holiday weeks) but that more of them will be
trying to catch the tube from London Bridge, Waterloo and Victoria. Ouch.

David

On Mar 8, 2:18*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 8 Mar 2009 04:19:51 -0700 (PDT), MIG





wrote:
On Mar 5, 7:30*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

much cut

IIRC there will not be any additional TOC station Oyster retailing so
even though PAYG will expand it will not be retailed via TOC ticket
machines - that was certainly the plan a long while ago and hence why
the Oyster Ticket Stop network was doubled in size to get outlets close
to stations. *If there has been any change on this front then it will
add timescale risk because of machine and software mods, testing and
commissioning etc on assets that have to keep working. *At least with
gates and validators it's either a software mod or a physical install of
something that is switched on later.

Does this mean that ticket offices will start selling newspapers and
crisps?

I doubt it.

Seriously, a location at or near a station gives a shop loads of
business. *If the customers wanting newspapers and crisps can't get
served because the shop is now filled with the ticket queue, the shop
will go out of business.

Hasn't harmed the shop inside Brixton Tube Station that does a roaring
trade in TfL products as well as their usual stuff. * There used to be
an "exclusion zone" for agents near to stations but that was scrapped
years ago because demand was so high for tickets that queues became
enormous at stations and people were not able to get to an agent close
by.

Maybe, but that's a shop at a station which has a ticket office and
several machines all selling Oyster. (I don't know how much space it
has and how many can be served at once.)

That's very different from the shop becoming the only Oyster ticket
office at a busy station, particularly if it's a small, poky shop.

When SET decided to offer Oyster at its ticket office at Lewisham (if
only via a PC at the back), there can't ever have been any possibility
of making the small, cramped shop in the station an Oyster Stop. It
can't cope with three people in there at once as it is.

There are now means of getting Oyster at Lewisham station, but if
another major station with a similar road layout didn't sell Oyster,
it would be a ten-minute walk to the nearest Oyster Stop and back,
trains missed etc.



I don't think that there are many Oyster Ticket Stops right at
stations for that reason. *Everyone wanting to top up will have to go
in two directions instead of just going to the station. *The TOCs will
have to sell Oyster; I can't see any alternative.

The problem is that I don't believe any of their machines are being
modified to sell it [1]. *I understand exactly what you're saying but
without the systems and machines I don't see how the TOCs can retail the
product.

[1] I may be wrong on this point but I have not seen anything official
from TfL, the Mayor, any TOC or ATOC / RSP to indicate that a widespread
modification programme is happening. *I thought the "deal" between TfL
and TOCs only covered validation equipment costs. Retailing is at the
discretion of the train companies.
--
Paul C- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Mar 8, 8:40*am, Rupert Candy
wrote:
I chose not to live in South London, because the transport links are
so unspeakably bad (with PAYG being a relevant, but minor, aspect of
the general transport dreadfulness of South London). You could have
done the same. Instead, you agreed to live in a horrible desert,
presumably because the rent was cheaper or something.

Or because it's nicer/greener/closer to jobs/young people can actually
afford to buy here.. Unusually inflammatory for you, John.

Provocatively phrased, but nonetheless true in spirit - transport
links are a vitally important factor when deciding where to live.

Around London, the Tube has long been far more frequent, cheaper and
open longer hours than heavy rail services, and rents and house prices
near Tube stations have been correspondingly higher than those near NR
stations, as well as those near no stations at all.

While the availability of PAYG has only been a decisionmaking factor
for people who've moved house in the last five years, the broader
point that LU will provide a better and cheaper service than NR has
been true for as long as anyone currently alive has had the
opportunity to make the choice...

In that context, the only significant change in London's transport
over the last five years has been the conversion of the orbital heavy
rail network into something that closer resembles the Underground, and
the promise of more of the same.

In other words, people off the Tube network have got things worse than
people on the Tube network and pay lower rent / lower house prices
accordingly. However, they've got things better than they ever had,
and hence should probably stop begrudging PAYG.

....and finally, choosing to live in South London cos it's nicer? Don't
make me laugh... ;-)

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Mar 8, 5:13*pm, wrote:
On Mar 8, 8:40*am, Rupert Candy
wrote:

I chose not to live in South London, because the transport links are
so unspeakably bad (with PAYG being a relevant, but minor, aspect of
the general transport dreadfulness of South London). You could have
done the same. Instead, you agreed to live in a horrible desert,
presumably because the rent was cheaper or something.

Or because it's nicer/greener/closer to jobs/young people can actually
afford to buy here.. Unusually inflammatory for you, John.

Provocatively phrased, but nonetheless true in spirit - transport
links are a vitally important factor when deciding where to live.

Around London, the Tube has long been far more frequent, cheaper and
open longer hours than heavy rail services, and rents and house prices
near Tube stations have been correspondingly higher than those near NR
stations, as well as those near no stations at all.

While the availability of PAYG has only been a decisionmaking factor
for people who've moved house in the last five years, the broader
point that LU will provide a better and cheaper service than NR has
been true for as long as anyone currently alive has had the
opportunity to make the choice...

In that context, the only significant change in London's transport
over the last five years has been the conversion of the orbital heavy
rail network into something that closer resembles the Underground, and
the promise of more of the same.

In other words, people off the Tube network have got things worse than
people on the Tube network and pay lower rent / lower house prices
accordingly. However, they've got things better than they ever had,
and hence should probably stop begrudging PAYG.

...and finally, choosing to live in South London cos it's nicer? Don't
make me laugh... ;-)

Although LU has always provided more frequent services, better staffed
stations and services covering longer hours, it used to provide them
equally to anyone, wherever they came from.

The difference now is that people from south London are faced with
extra costs or inconveniences when daring to use LU services (or
having to do some kind of military planning in advance of a simple
journey).

In other words, if I live near LU, I go to my local station on the way
to work and all my ticketing needs are met. If I live in south London
I will often have to do some combination of

1) pay an effective penalty fare for an occasional zone extension on
LU

2) get off during my journey to touch in or out (when extending a zone
on LU)

3) remember to divert via a ticket stop on the way home, even if late,
tired and wet, if there's one open, so as never to have to get a paper
ticket in the morning

Yes, these things are all possible to deal with, but people from north
London don't face any additional inconveniences when in south London
compared with the locals.

wrote:
On Mar 8, 8:40 am, Rupert Candy
wrote:
I chose not to live in South London, because the transport links
are
so unspeakably bad (with PAYG being a relevant, but minor, aspect
of
the general transport dreadfulness of South London). You could
have
done the same. Instead, you agreed to live in a horrible desert,
presumably because the rent was cheaper or something.

Or because it's nicer/greener/closer to jobs/young people can
actually
afford to buy here.. Unusually inflammatory for you, John.

Provocatively phrased, but nonetheless true in spirit - transport
links are a vitally important factor when deciding where to live.

Around London, the Tube has long been far more frequent, cheaper and
open longer hours than heavy rail services, and rents and house prices
near Tube stations have been correspondingly higher than those near NR
stations, as well as those near no stations at all.

While the availability of PAYG has only been a decisionmaking factor
for people who've moved house in the last five years, the broader
point that LU will provide a better and cheaper service than NR has
been true for as long as anyone currently alive has had the
opportunity to make the choice...

In that context, the only significant change in London's transport
over the last five years has been the conversion of the orbital heavy
rail network into something that closer resembles the Underground, and
the promise of more of the same.

In other words, people off the Tube network have got things worse than
people on the Tube network and pay lower rent / lower house prices
accordingly. However, they've got things better than they ever had,
and hence should probably stop begrudging PAYG.

How very British-a play-off between how much your house costs and what
sort of trains serve its area of the capital city. (I'm not denying
you're right!)

...and finally, choosing to live in South London cos it's nicer? Don't
make me laugh... ;-)

YMMV. Personally I've always found much of the NW, N and E postcodes
pretty grim (not to mention HA, EN and the like) :-P


--
Current nearest station: Pimlico