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Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
Just reading an article about Thameslink progress in the latest Today's
Railway UK; the author writes: "One issue still being debated is whether to grade separate Metropolitan Junction, where FCC services now leave Southeastern's intensively used LB - Waterloo line for Blackfriars." I would have thought this problem [of Thameslink & SE services crossing] had been completely designed out by moving the crossing point to the diveunders east of London Bridge, and then having dedicated pairs of tracks westward of London Bridge for both the Blackfriars and Charing Cross routes. Was a grade separated Metropolitan Junction a fall back proposal if four tracking through Borough Market proved impossible? Paul S |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
"Paul Scott" wrote Was a grade separated Metropolitan Junction a fall back proposal if four tracking through Borough Market proved impossible? IMHO the whole Thameslink Project collapses if 4-tracking from London Bridge to Metropolitan Junction proves impossible. Charing Cross needs best part of 30 tph in the peak, and Thameslink is based on 16-18 tph via London Bridge in the peak, and you can't run 46-48 tph on one track. Peter |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
Peter Masson wrote:
"Paul Scott" wrote Was a grade separated Metropolitan Junction a fall back proposal if four tracking through Borough Market proved impossible? IMHO the whole Thameslink Project collapses if 4-tracking from London Bridge to Metropolitan Junction proves impossible. Charing Cross needs best part of 30 tph in the peak, and Thameslink is based on 16-18 tph via London Bridge in the peak, and you can't run 46-48 tph on one track. Yes, I think that much is implied, without the Boriugh four tracking there would have had to be a total revision of the plans with most Thameslink trains heading for E&C as in the current peaks. However, having followed Thameslink developments for a few years now, I don't recall a flyover at Metropolitan Junction being mentioned much if ever? Paul |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
"Paul Scott" wrote in message ... Peter Masson wrote: "Paul Scott" wrote Was a grade separated Metropolitan Junction a fall back proposal if four tracking through Borough Market proved impossible? IMHO the whole Thameslink Project collapses if 4-tracking from London Bridge to Metropolitan Junction proves impossible. Charing Cross needs best part of 30 tph in the peak, and Thameslink is based on 16-18 tph via London Bridge in the peak, and you can't run 46-48 tph on one track. Yes, I think that much is implied, without the Boriugh four tracking there would have had to be a total revision of the plans with most Thameslink trains heading for E&C as in the current peaks. However, having followed Thameslink developments for a few years now, I don't recall a flyover at Metropolitan Junction being mentioned much if ever? Indeed. The Bermondsey diveunder not only takes the Charing Cross lines and the Croydon Down Slow under Thameslink, but also manages some grade separation for the link between Thameslink and the Southeastern lines. I can't see the point of a flyover at Metropolitan Junction, and I can't see it having any chance of approval in view of the historic buildings in the area. Achieving the new Southeastern viaduct has been difficult enough, and it seems that the improved transport infrastructure is only just sufficient to outweigh the environmental detriment in the area. Peter |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
On Mar 10, 4:33 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Paul Scott" wrote in message Was a grade separated Metropolitan Junction can't see the point of a flyover at Metropolitan Junction, and I can't see I read the article today and echo the comments upthread, I thought Met.Jn. conflicts are effectively eliminated by proposed works east of LB. At the back of my mind there was a proposal a *very* VERY long time ago for grade seperating Met.Jn. but I think this goes right back to early TL2000 ideas even before they called it TL2000 and bears no resemblance to the present project. -- Nick |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
wrote in message
... On Mar 10, 4:33 pm, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Paul Scott" wrote in message Was a grade separated Metropolitan Junction can't see the point of a flyover at Metropolitan Junction, and I can't see I read the article today and echo the comments upthread, I thought Met.Jn. conflicts are effectively eliminated by proposed works east of LB. At the back of my mind there was a proposal a *very* VERY long time ago for grade seperating Met.Jn. but I think this goes right back to early TL2000 ideas even before they called it TL2000 and bears no resemblance to the present project. -- Nick I thought so too. I understood the route would have been to the south of the present line but was now impossible because the Jubilee extension ran along the same alignment and no longer provided a safe support! MaxB |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
"Paul Scott" wrote in message
... "One issue still being debated is whether to grade separate Metropolitan Junction, where FCC services now leave Southeastern's intensively used LB - Waterloo line for Blackfriars." I would have thought this problem [of Thameslink & SE services crossing] had been completely designed out by moving the crossing point to the diveunders east of London Bridge, and then having dedicated pairs of tracks westward of London Bridge for both the Blackfriars and Charing Cross routes. Since Blackfriars is going to be closed for a considerable length of time, almost three years, will LUL put up partitions at the platform edges and allow trains to run through there at speed? What would it take to reset the start signals to normal waysides, since now they are in essence draw ups. Also when from where is the last Thameslink train on the Moorgate Branch due to depart on 22 March? |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
wrote in message ... Since Blackfriars is going to be closed for a considerable length of time, almost three years, will LUL put up partitions at the platform edges and allow trains to run through there at speed? What would it take to reset the start signals to normal waysides, since now they are in essence draw ups. I've read that a 'steel framed box' is being built to allow building work to proceed 24/7 around the running railway. No idea about the signalling, although you would have to assume that the timescales would allow some changes to be worthwhile. Has anyone any idea where the displaced passengers have ended up, the advice seems to be to either walk to Mansion House or Temple, or stay on train until City Thameslink. Paul S |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
"Paul Scott" wrote in message
... I've read that a 'steel framed box' is being built to allow building work to proceed 24/7 around the running railway. No idea about the signalling, although you would have to assume that the timescales would allow some changes to be worthwhile. What would it take to reset a starter signal to a standard wayside Has anyone any idea where the displaced passengers have ended up, the advice seems to be to either walk to Mansion House or Temple, Whichever is closer, I supppose. or stay on train until City Thameslink. Are you referring to FCC Thameslink services when you you say this? The two stations are literally within sight of each other. It would not surprise me to find out that this is the shortest distance between two stations on National Rail, though I don't know. |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
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Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
wrote Also when from where is the last Thameslink train on the Moorgate Branch due to depart on 22 March? Last would seem to be 1844 LUT - MOG due 1941 on 20 March, works out ECS. Last passenger service out would seem to be 1906 MOG - BDM. No Saturday or Sunday service. Peter |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
"Jack Taylor" wrote in message
... wrote: They might well put up platform protection for staff working on the station - but I would imagine that the normal 5mph limit through the station will apply. Allowing trains to pass through faster would cause chaos with the timetables, not som much on the central section where all trains are doing the same but on the branches where other services interface. I did not think that there was much interface with service on other branches, really. Can you give some examples, out of curiosity? |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
On Mar 14, 1:42*pm, wrote:
"Jack Taylor" wrote in message ... wrote: They might well put up platform protection for staff working on the station - but I would imagine that the normal 5mph limit through the station will apply. Allowing trains to pass through faster would cause chaos with the timetables, not som much on the central section where all trains are doing the same but on the branches where other services interface. I did not think that there was much interface with service on other branches, really. Can you give some examples, out of curiosity? Hammersmith and City from Aldgate East, Piccadilly Line at Acton Town - Ealing Common (and from Hammersmith occasionally), North London Line Gunnersbury - Richmond, ECS South West Trains Wimbledon - Putney. I think that the killer spot would be Aldgate East, arriving early there would cause the most problems. |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
wrote in message
... :Hammersmith and City from Aldgate East, Piccadilly Line at Acton Town - Ealing Common (and from Hammersmith occasionally), North London Line Gunnersbury - Richmond, ECS South West Trains Wimbledon - Putney. I think that the killer spot would be Aldgate East, arriving early there would cause the most problems. So, it would be just too much work and upset for a situation that is going to be temporary, regardless of the extended length of time it will be out of service? |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
On Mar 14, 2:22*pm, wrote:
wrote in message ... :Hammersmith and City from Aldgate East, Piccadilly Line at Acton Town - Ealing Common (and from Hammersmith occasionally), North London Line Gunnersbury - Richmond, ECS South West Trains Wimbledon - Putney. I think that the killer spot would be Aldgate East, arriving early there would cause the most problems. So, it would be just too much work and upset for a situation that is going to be temporary, regardless of the extended length of time it will be out of service? I'd say so, trains are unlikely to be able to run past at speed for all of the closure period, as there will be work on the platforms towards the end of the rebuild. Of course, there will still be some extra time, as most of the station stop time is the allowance for doors opening, passengers getting on/off and doors closing. As Blackfriars is only 600m from Mansion House and 760m from Temple (according to Quail), line speeds will not be very high in the area. |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
On Mar 14, 2:07*pm, wrote:
On Mar 14, 1:42*pm, wrote: "Jack Taylor" wrote in message ... wrote: They might well put up platform protection for staff working on the station - but I would imagine that the normal 5mph limit through the station will apply. Allowing trains to pass through faster would cause chaos with the timetables, not som much on the central section where all trains are doing the same but on the branches where other services interface. I did not think that there was much interface with service on other branches, really. Can you give some examples, out of curiosity? Hammersmith and City from Aldgate East, Piccadilly Line at Acton Town - Ealing Common (and from Hammersmith occasionally), North London Line Gunnersbury - Richmond, ECS South West Trains Wimbledon - Putney. I think that the killer spot would be Aldgate East, arriving early there would cause the most problems. I find it hard to believe that the timing of the service is all that precise in practice. My impression is that they always wait around anyway, at Aldgate East, Earls Court and just about anywhere. More likely, it would add a tiny bit of recovery potential to the line if they could run through at greater speed. |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
On Mar 14, 2:39*pm, MIG wrote:
On Mar 14, 2:07*pm, wrote: On Mar 14, 1:42*pm, wrote: "Jack Taylor" wrote in message ... wrote: They might well put up platform protection for staff working on the station - but I would imagine that the normal 5mph limit through the station will apply. Allowing trains to pass through faster would cause chaos with the timetables, not som much on the central section where all trains are doing the same but on the branches where other services interface. I did not think that there was much interface with service on other branches, really. Can you give some examples, out of curiosity? Hammersmith and City from Aldgate East, Piccadilly Line at Acton Town - Ealing Common (and from Hammersmith occasionally), North London Line Gunnersbury - Richmond, ECS South West Trains Wimbledon - Putney. I think that the killer spot would be Aldgate East, arriving early there would cause the most problems. I find it hard to believe that the timing of the service is all that precise in practice. *My impression is that they always wait around anyway, at Aldgate East, Earls Court and just about anywhere. Underground working times are in half minute blocks and yes, the timing are that precise for the working timetables. Of course, individual trains won't all run exactly to the timings, but they should be close. Trains hang about at the junctions partly because of the slack in the timetables, allowing trains to run an extra minute faster, means that this minute has to be lost before the junction or the interacting service has to be retimed as well. The District line is particularly hard to timetable, due to the interactions on the branches and the knock on effects on the H&C and Met lines. More likely, it would add a tiny bit of recovery potential to the line if they could run through at greater speed. But is it worth the cost of the alterations to the signalling? You get more recovery time from not actually stopping and opening / closing the doors than you can from increasing speed through the station from the approach control speed to, say, 30 mph. |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
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Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
In message , at 13:38:10 on
Sat, 14 Mar 2009, Peter Masson remarked: Also when from where is the last Thameslink train on the Moorgate Branch due to depart on 22 March? Last would seem to be 1844 LUT - MOG due 1941 on 20 March, works out ECS. Last passenger service out would seem to be 1906 MOG - BDM. So if you changed at Farringdon you could catch the last train out and the last train in, even if in the reverse order to what one might have expected? -- Roland Perry |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
wrote in message
... "Paul Scott" wrote in message ... I've read that a 'steel framed box' is being built to allow building work to proceed 24/7 around the running railway. No idea about the signalling, although you would have to assume that the timescales would allow some changes to be worthwhile. What would it take to reset a starter signal to a standard wayside Has anyone any idea where the displaced passengers have ended up, the advice seems to be to either walk to Mansion House or Temple, Whichever is closer, I supppose. More or less the same distance, so Mansion House for eastbound, Temple for westbound (District/Circle in both cases, of course). But isn't Mansion House closed at weekends? And if so, wouldn't it be a good idea to open it during the Blackfriars closure? With Cannon Street also closed at weekends, it will be fast from Temple to Monument :-) or stay on train until City Thameslink. For anyone originally intending to change to the Underground at Blackfriars, that is just duff advice. Regards Jonathan |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
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Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
"Jonathan Morton" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... "Paul Scott" wrote in message ... I've read that a 'steel framed box' is being built to allow building work to proceed 24/7 around the running railway. No idea about the signalling, although you would have to assume that the timescales would allow some changes to be worthwhile. What would it take to reset a starter signal to a standard wayside Has anyone any idea where the displaced passengers have ended up, the advice seems to be to either walk to Mansion House or Temple, Whichever is closer, I supppose. More or less the same distance, so Mansion House for eastbound, Temple for westbound (District/Circle in both cases, of course). But isn't Mansion House closed at weekends? And if so, wouldn't it be a good idea to open it during the Blackfriars closure? With Cannon Street also closed at weekends, it will be fast from Temple to Monument :-) Mansion House does not close at weekends, only Cannon Street. Peter Smyth |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
On Mar 14, 10:35*pm, "Richard J." wrote:
wrote: On Mar 14, 2:39 pm, MIG wrote: I find it hard to believe that the timing of the service is all that precise in practice. *My impression is that they always wait around anyway, at Aldgate East, Earls Court and just about anywhere. Underground working times are in half minute blocks and yes, the timing are that precise for the working timetables. Of course, individual trains won't all run exactly to the timings, but they should be close. I agree with MIG. *My experience is that on the District the timings are frequently NOT close to the WTT. *It's partly because the Circle Line is prone to delays that it can't recover from, but the District itself often gets its trains out of sequence, as you can see any day at Earl's Court westbound. *In my view LU have done little over the last 30 years to improve punctuality and frequency of the District. The WTT is a nice theoretical exercise, but in practice I don't see much effort put into making it a reality on a minute-by-minute basis. But the delays vary from day to day. You still need a working plan. I agree that LUL have done little to vary the timetable, but I don't know what they can do without reducing the current frequency. It will be interesting to see if the Tea-Cup service helps, as it will remove the Circle line delays. |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
On Mar 14, 11:00 pm, "Peter Smyth" wrote:
But isn't Mansion House closed at weekends? And if so, wouldn't it be a good idea to open it during the Blackfriars closure? With Cannon Street also closed at weekends, it will be fast from Temple to Monument :-) Mansion House does not close at weekends, only Cannon Street. Cannon Street closes only Sundays, it is open 0730-1930 Saturdays. -- Nick |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
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Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
On Mar 15, 12:16*am, wrote:
On Mar 14, 11:00 pm, "Peter Smyth" wrote: But isn't Mansion House closed at weekends? And if so, wouldn't it be a good idea to open it during the Blackfriars closure? With Cannon Street also closed at weekends, it will be fast from Temple to Monument :-) Mansion House does not close at weekends, only Cannon Street. Cannon Street closes only Sundays, it is open 0730-1930 Saturdays. -- Nick Has it been open longer during the Bank interchange nonsense? |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
"Peter Smyth" wrote in message
... Mansion House does not close at weekends, only Cannon Street. In which case I stand corrected - unlike TfL's website, which states that the ticket office at Mansion House is closed on Saturdays and Sundays. Or are they saying that the station is open but the ticket office is closed? Regards Jonathan |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 09:36:36 -0000, "Jonathan Morton"
wrote: In which case I stand corrected - unlike TfL's website, which states that the ticket office at Mansion House is closed on Saturdays and Sundays. Or are they saying that the station is open but the ticket office is closed? I think so, yes. I've never quite understood the point of having both Cannon St and Monument - they're so close together. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
"Neil Williams" wrote I've never quite understood the point of having both Cannon St and Monument - they're so close together. Cannon Street for interchange with Southeastern; Monument for interchange with Bank when all the escalators are working it's quite a good interchange with the Northern Line, and better than Tower Hill/Tower Gateway for connecting to the DLR. Peter |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
"Neil Williams" wrote in message
... On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 09:36:36 -0000, "Jonathan Morton" wrote: In which case I stand corrected - unlike TfL's website, which states that the ticket office at Mansion House is closed on Saturdays and Sundays. Or are they saying that the station is open but the ticket office is closed? I think so, yes. I've never quite understood the point of having both Cannon St and Monument - they're so close together. In fact Mansion House, Cannon Street, Monument and Bank are all very close. Obviously we know that Monument and Bank are connected because the Northern Line platforms are on King William Street - in effect between Monument and the rest of Bank. I guess that's the reason for Monument continuing to exist. Cannon Street at least has a link to a main line station. To be fair, the proliferation of stations in the City doesn't really do any harm, and it does allow one to use the correct Underground technique of walking slightly further if it avoids a change. I remember my brother's technique in the early 80s. His nearest station was Holland Park and he worked at St Paul's. Normally, therefore, a Central Line journey. But during the early 80s strikes he would walk to Notting Hill Gate, stand on the bridge over the tracks, and take the first Circle Line train to appear in either direction - getting off at Farringdon or Blackfriars as the case may be. Regards Jonathan |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
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Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
On Mar 15, 3:02*pm, wrote:
In article , (Peter Masson) wrote: "Neil Williams" wrote I've never quite understood the point of having both Cannon St and Monument - they're so close together. Cannon Street for interchange with Southeastern; Monument for interchange with Bank when all the escalators are working it's quite a good interchange with the Northern Line, and better than Tower Hill/Tower Gateway for connecting to the DLR. Even though, as the crow flies, Bank is nearer to Cannon Street than to Monument. That depends on where you count Bank as being. It's a complex probably covering as wide an area as Monument-Cannon Street-Mansion House. I think Cannon Street is nearer to the Central, Monument is nearer to the Northern or DLR, Mansion House is nearer to the Waterloo and City. But then all further complicated by the positioning of the exits and whether they are open at particular times of day or week. You are right that Cannon Street is nearest to the Bank entrance that is guaranteed always to be open, but of course Cannon Street isn't ... |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 01:09:50PM -0000, Paul Scott wrote:
wrote in message ... Since Blackfriars is going to be closed for a considerable length of time ... Has anyone any idea where the displaced passengers have ended up, the advice seems to be to either walk to Mansion House or Temple, or stay on train until City Thameslink. City Thameslink? Errm? I thought Blackfriars NR was staying open for Thameslink trains. -- David Cantrell | top google result for "internet beard fetish club" You can't spell AWESOME without ME! |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
"David Cantrell" wrote in message ... On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 01:09:50PM -0000, Paul Scott wrote: wrote in message ... Since Blackfriars is going to be closed for a considerable length of time ... Has anyone any idea where the displaced passengers have ended up, the advice seems to be to either walk to Mansion House or Temple, or stay on train until City Thameslink. City Thameslink? Errm? I thought Blackfriars NR was staying open for Thameslink trains. Of course, but I think they are just suggesting that for some people whose NR journey terminated at Blackfriars with an underground leg onwards, it may be a more straightforward walk from City T/L, and from the 23rd their terminating train will run through anyway... Their wording is: "In actual fact, with all this building work and changes to the walking routes outside the station, you’ll definitely be better off using City Thameslink station instead. It won’t cost you any more to reach, it’s enclosed, warmer and actually only a couple of hundred yards away. And from 22 March ALL northbound trains will call there – including the services from Kent and south-east London that currently terminate at Blackfriars (see ‘New services...’ below). That means, if you’re heading south to get home, you’re more likely to get a seat from City Thameslink too!" http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk/cms/pages/view/40 Paul S |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
"Paul Scott" wrote in message
... Their wording is: "In actual fact, with all this building work and changes to the walking routes outside the station, you’ll definitely be better off using City Thameslink station instead. It won’t cost you any more to reach, it’s enclosed, warmer and actually only a couple of hundred yards away. And from 22 March ALL northbound trains will call there – including the services from Kent and south-east London that currently terminate at Blackfriars (see ‘New services...’ below). That means, if you’re heading south to get home, you’re more likely to get a seat from City Thameslink too!" http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk/cms/pages/view/40 Paul S Will trains that originally terminated at Blackfriars now be stabled and turned at the depot west of City Thameslink? I forget what it is called. |
Thameslink - Metropolitan Junction
wrote:
Will trains that originally terminated at Blackfriars now be stabled and turned at the depot west of City Thameslink? I forget what it is called. A relatively small number of trains (only about 5 or 6 per day) will terminate at City T/L and/or run into 'Smithfield Sidings', and half of those are temporary because of the initial shortage of dual voltage stock, originally the only 3 planned were very early am peak services, as listed he http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk..._items/view/17 In general however, trains that would have terminated at Blackfriars will run through to at least Kentish Town, with some peak services going as far as St Albans or Bedford. I suspect there might be a good proportion of Southeastern's current Blackfriars pax carrying on to at least City T/L. Paul S |
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