[x-posted to uk.transport.london]
[original thread on uk.railway]

On Apr 9, 3:38*pm, Tony Polson wrote:
Thursday 9th April 2009
Chris Cheesman

Photos taken on London's Tube network - even tourist snapshots - may
require a £34.50 permit, say Underground bosses who insist that the
rules haven't changed.

Transport for London (TfL) has revamped its website in a move designed
to make it easier to apply for a filming or a photography permit on the
Tube.

Though TfL says London Underground will adopt a 'common sense' approach
when dealing with amateur photography, a spokesman told us: 'Our
position is that if you wish to take a photograph on our property you
should seek permission.'

London Underground, whose stations are private property, says it
receives 'thousands' of requests every year to film on the Tube.

The price of the permit (£34.50) includes VAT and allows handheld
photography for up to five 'non-professionals' or students. It is valid
for one month.

TfL says it will deal with each request on a 'case-by-case basis'.

But, when quizzed by Amateur Photographer, TfL did not make clear at
which point a permit becomes necessary.

TfL spokeswoman Tracey O'Brien said that the permit allows London
Underground to 'manage' requests for photography to ensure they do not
'interfere with the running of the Tube network'.

O'Brien added: 'Any individual or film production company wanting to
film or take photographs on the Tube must seek prior permission from the
London Underground (LU) Film Office.'

She added: 'We do take a common sense approach to granting permissions
to film and photograph the Tube and are flexible in dealing with
different requests on a case-by-case basis.

'Nonetheless, it is only right that we are ultimately able to retain
control over filming and photography of the buildings and assets owned
by London Underground, and the staff who work with us.'

All flash photography is banned outright at 'platform-level', added the
spokeswoman.

http://tinyurl.com/cn2ttq
or
http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk...rackdown_on_lo...


My instant reaction to this was 'it's all just a misunderstanding, as
LU have never had any rule against amateur photography, and the LU
spokesperson is just a bit muddled'. However, I went to the TfL
website to check up on the purported changes mentioned in the above
article and I found, to my surprise, mention of a "Student or non-
professional permit", something I don't recall ever hearing about
beforehand. (N.B. I'm not much of a photographer so this isn't my area
of expertise.)

In particular have a gander at this page:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/5225.aspx
---quote---
Permits

Any individual or film production company wanting to film or take
photographs on the Tube must seek prior permission from the London
Underground (LU) Film Office.

There are three types of permit:

* Student or non-professional
* Two-hour
* Location

All permit requests must be made in writing, preferably via one of our
application forms. You can start an online application now.
---/quote---


My reaction to this, if it is indeed a substantive change of policy
from what went on beforehand, is that it's more the result of some
cack-handed thinking about commercial concerns rather than a result of
misplaced 'security concerns' - that said, it would I suppose create a
database of those serious-ish photographers who are roaming the LU
network at any particular time, which under some moronic thinking
might be considered worthwhile. Nonetheless I'm tempted to opt for the
former explanation - that is, if there really has been any substantive
change. It's possible this is all the result of some rather badly
drafted new rules.

I await developments with interest.

So what would happen if lots of photographers sent letters / emails seeking
permission. What about events, such as steam on the met...

A new form of 'flash mob' anyone (pun intened)

On Apr 9, 5:20*pm, "jim" wrote:
So what would happen if lots of photographers sent letters / emails seeking
permission. What about events, such as steam on the met...

A new form of 'flash mob' anyone *(pun intened)

If one goes by the story on the Amateur Photography website (as per
the original post), then LU would be quids in as each "crew" of "five
or less" would have to pay.

However I'm not entirely sure whether one should go by that story - it
says that "price of the permit (£34.50) includes VAT", but the LU
website says it would cost "£30 inc VAT" - see:
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/corporate...t-request.aspx

So that's one rather obvious factual error. I can't help but wonder
whether this story is the result of confusion and cock-up rather than
a concerted effort to extract money and names from purely amateur
photographers - the (apparently) new rules are delightfully unclear
and unspecific, and I can well imagine there being a scramble in the
TfL Press Office as they scrambled to look at these new rules for the
first time and try and make some sense of them, hence the somewhat
confused responses from the TfL spokesperson.

That said the bit where the spokesperson says they will adopt a
"common sense" approach to amateur photography but then goes on to say
"Our position is that if you wish to take a photograph on our property
you should seek permission" does sound rather ominous. The policy at
least up until now has been that there were no restrictions with
regards to amateur photography.

I wonder however if this is simply the result of confusion relating to
different meanings being attached to "amateur" and "non-professional"
photography, the latter perhaps embracing various photography projects
that aren't money making but are nonetheless more than a bod with a
camera. Perhaps this is the result of snap-happy art students 'running
wild' on the network filling up their portfolios and causing minor
mayhem whilst they do so?

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

That said the bit where the spokesperson says they will adopt a
"common sense" approach to amateur photography but then goes on to say
"Our position is that if you wish to take a photograph on our property
you should seek permission" does sound rather ominous. The policy at
least up until now has been that there were no restrictions with
regards to amateur photography.

This is just going the wrong way.

There used to be a "permit" requirement in Spain, but it's been dropped
recently:

http://www.adif.es/en_US/ocio_y_cult...fotografia.htm

shows the English wording (I printed out this and the one in Castellano and
carried both when in Spain recently). I do like being thought of as an
"aficionado".

--
Tim
http://tim-fenton.fotopic.net/
Spain's new railway http://tim-fenton.fotopic.net/c1674969.html
Madrid trams + metros http://tim-fenton.fotopic.net/c1674968.html
Madrid city tour http://tim-fenton.fotopic.net/c1674966.html

Mizter T wrote:
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]
[original thread on uk.railway]

On Apr 9, 3:38 pm, Tony Polson wrote:
Thursday 9th April 2009
Chris Cheesman

Photos taken on London's Tube network - even tourist snapshots - may
require a £34.50 permit, say Underground bosses who insist that the
rules haven't changed.

Transport for London (TfL) has revamped its website in a move designed
to make it easier to apply for a filming or a photography permit on the
Tube.

Though TfL says London Underground will adopt a 'common sense' approach
when dealing with amateur photography, a spokesman told us: 'Our
position is that if you wish to take a photograph on our property you
should seek permission.'

London Underground, whose stations are private property, says it
receives 'thousands' of requests every year to film on the Tube.

The price of the permit (£34.50) includes VAT and allows handheld
photography for up to five 'non-professionals' or students. It is valid
for one month.

TfL says it will deal with each request on a 'case-by-case basis'.

But, when quizzed by Amateur Photographer, TfL did not make clear at
which point a permit becomes necessary.

TfL spokeswoman Tracey O'Brien said that the permit allows London
Underground to 'manage' requests for photography to ensure they do not
'interfere with the running of the Tube network'.

O'Brien added: 'Any individual or film production company wanting to
film or take photographs on the Tube must seek prior permission from the
London Underground (LU) Film Office.'

She added: 'We do take a common sense approach to granting permissions
to film and photograph the Tube and are flexible in dealing with
different requests on a case-by-case basis.

'Nonetheless, it is only right that we are ultimately able to retain
control over filming and photography of the buildings and assets owned
by London Underground, and the staff who work with us.'

All flash photography is banned outright at 'platform-level', added the
spokeswoman.

http://tinyurl.com/cn2ttq
or
http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk...rackdown_on_lo...


My instant reaction to this was 'it's all just a misunderstanding, as
LU have never had any rule against amateur photography, and the LU
spokesperson is just a bit muddled'.

Me too, when I saw this elsewhere.

However, I went to the TfL
website to check up on the purported changes mentioned in the above
article and I found, to my surprise, mention of a "Student or non-
professional permit", something I don't recall ever hearing about
beforehand. (N.B. I'm not much of a photographer so this isn't my area
of expertise.)

Could the intention be to mean film/photography/journalism/etc students,
and very serious/arty amateurs, who might want to do more than just take
a quick snap, but who don't have the financial resources of Steven
Spielberg? It is probably worth TfL trying extract as much cash as
possible from Holywood, but maybe not a bunch of students or a camera club.


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On Apr 9, 6:07*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On Apr 9, 5:20*pm, "jim" wrote:

So what would happen if lots of photographers sent letters / emails seeking
permission. What about events, such as steam on the met...

A new form of 'flash mob' anyone *(pun intened)

If one goes by the story on the Amateur Photography website (as per
the original post), then LU would be quids in as each "crew" of "five
or less" would have to pay.

However I'm not entirely sure whether one should go by that story - it
says that "price of the permit (£34.50) includes VAT", but the LU
website says it would cost "£30 inc VAT" - see:https://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/corporate.../permit-reques...

So that's one rather obvious factual error. I can't help but wonder
whether this story is the result of confusion and cock-up rather than
a concerted effort to extract money and names from purely amateur
photographers - the (apparently) new rules are delightfully unclear
and unspecific, and I can well imagine there being a scramble in the
TfL Press Office as they scrambled to look at these new rules for the
first time and try and make some sense of them, hence the somewhat
confused responses from the TfL spokesperson.

That said the bit where the spokesperson says they will adopt a
"common sense" approach to amateur photography but then goes on to say
"Our position is that if you wish to take a photograph on our property
you should seek permission" does sound rather ominous. The policy at
least up until now has been that there were no restrictions with
regards to amateur photography.

I wonder however if this is simply the result of confusion relating to
different meanings being attached to "amateur" and "non-professional"
photography, the latter perhaps embracing various photography projects
that aren't money making but are nonetheless more than a bod with a
camera. Perhaps this is the result of snap-happy art students 'running
wild' on the network filling up their portfolios and causing minor
mayhem whilst they do so?

Looks like confusion and cock-up to me. The page on Permit Rates
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/corporate...office/permit-
request.aspx only mentions commercial filming / photography (with non-
commercial only mentioned in the student section linked from there),
but they are all under the media section of the site. In other words,
these permits do not seem to be aimed at general passengers, but at
people wanting to undertake photography projects.

The Conditions of Carriage still only mention that flash photography
is banned and don't mention normal photography at all.

In message
Mizter T wrote:

[snip]

My instant reaction to this was 'it's all just a misunderstanding, as
LU have never had any rule against amateur photography, and the LU
spokesperson is just a bit muddled'. However, I went to the TfL
website to check up on the purported changes mentioned in the above
article and I found, to my surprise, mention of a "Student or non-
professional permit", something I don't recall ever hearing about
beforehand. (N.B. I'm not much of a photographer so this isn't my area
of expertise.)

In particular have a gander at this page:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/5225.aspx
---quote---
Permits

Any individual or film production company wanting to film or take
photographs on the Tube must seek prior permission from the London
Underground (LU) Film Office.

There are three types of permit:

* Student or non-professional
* Two-hour
* Location

All permit requests must be made in writing, preferably via one of our
application forms. You can start an online application now.
---/quote---



Last time I checked requirements for a professional*video shoot which was
about 5 years ago, I came up with the same categories so I don't think
anything had changed, just it is being made better known.

--
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

rail wrote:
In message


Mizter T wrote:

In particular have a gander at this page:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/5225.aspx
---quote---
Permits

Any individual or film production company wanting to film or take
photographs on the Tube must seek prior permission from the London
Underground (LU) Film Office.

There are three types of permit:

* Student or non-professional
* Two-hour
* Location

All permit requests must be made in writing, preferably via one of
our application forms. You can start an online application now.
---/quote---

Last time I checked requirements for a professional video shoot which
was about 5 years ago, I came up with the same categories so I don't
think anything had changed, just it is being made better known.

The fact that this procedure is on the TfL website under "...
/corporate/media" seems to suggest to me it is nothing to do with members of
the public taking 'happy snaps'.

Which of course is the 'non-conclusion' we all came to last time this
subject aired...

Paul

Tim Fenton wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

That said the bit where the spokesperson says they will adopt a
"common sense" approach to amateur photography but then goes on to say
"Our position is that if you wish to take a photograph on our property
you should seek permission" does sound rather ominous. The policy at
least up until now has been that there were no restrictions with
regards to amateur photography.

This is just going the wrong way.

There used to be a "permit" requirement in Spain, but it's been dropped
recently:


http://www.adif.es/en_US/ocio_y_cult...fotografia.htm


shows the English wording (I printed out this and the one in Castellano
and carried both when in Spain recently). I do like being thought of as
an "aficionado".

I was in Spain a few weeks ago, and had no problems whatsoever taking
pictures (without a permit).

OTOH, buying ticket is hassle - few useful machines (though lots of
ticket on departure collection machines), and a lack of through
ticketing between long distance and local/regional trains.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On Apr 9, 6:36*pm, Arthur Figgis wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]
[original thread on uk.railway]

On Apr 9, 3:38 pm, Tony Polson wrote:

Thursday 9th April 2009
Chris Cheesman

[Amateur Photographer article snipped]]

http://tinyurl.com/cn2ttq
or
http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk...rackdown_on_lo....

My instant reaction to this was 'it's all just a misunderstanding, as
LU have never had any rule against amateur photography, and the LU
spokesperson is just a bit muddled'.

Me too, when I saw this elsewhere.

However, I went to the TfL
website to check up on the purported changes mentioned in the above
article and I found, to my surprise, mention of a "Student or non-
professional permit", something I don't recall ever hearing about
beforehand. (N.B. I'm not much of a photographer so this isn't my area
of expertise.)

Could the intention be to mean film/photography/journalism/etc students,
and very serious/arty amateurs, who might want to do more than just take
a quick snap, but who don't have the financial resources of Steven
Spielberg? It is probably worth TfL trying extract as much cash as
possible from Holywood, but maybe not a bunch of students or a camera club.


[For a moment there I thought you'd made a delicious typo about
extracting money from "Holyrood" - that'd make Tony P pleased, though
of course the ScotNat's would say that's more or less what we've been
doing for the past thirty-odd years if one allows for the artistic
licence of substituting Holyrood for the 'Scottish' North Sea... but I
digress!]

Basically, re what you say above, that's what I think. This sounds
like a storm in a teacup, not at all helped by the uncertain responses
of the TfL spokesperson - the result of the new cut back, leaner
('amateur' even...) TfL press office under Boris?! I wonder if the
press officer had spoken to the LU Film Office about this - I have my
suspicions that might not have happened (though I suppose the Press
Office should perhaps be capable of standing on their own two feet
with regards to wholly predictable enquiries such as this one).

I therefore think this is a non-issue. The problem with stories such
as this is you end up thinking that the hacks responsible are either
just being scurrilous, knowing full well they weren't in receipt of
the whole story, or otherwise stupid for believing they were on to a
scoop. I dare say it's possibly a muddled mixture of both, which is
encouraged by editors and further boosted in this brave new online-era
by the desperate need for website hits (I certainly visited a website
that I wouldn't have done otherwise this afternoon - though I didn't
click on any adverts, not least because they're blocked with Firefox's
ABP!).

All that said it's not helped by the uncertain words of the TfL
spokesperson, and nor is it helped by the lack of precision on the
webpages of the LU Film Office section of the TfL website (which are
the only obvious hits on the first page of results when you use the
TfL's website search facility with the term "photography"). Going by
past posts on newsgroups and I think elsewhere these LU Film Office
webpages have certainly tripped people up beforehand. So maybe it's
time for a quiet word from the Press Office to the Film Office to get
them to clarify the information on their pages and so stop confusion
(and daft media stories) from arising in the future.