Right,

Been reading the last issue of London Loop. In an article about work on
the Northern line, it says:

There will be more trains too - making a total of 24 on the central and
northern branches, and 32 on the Morden section.

Do they mean trains, or trains per hour? Or something else? And is that 24
on each branch, or between the two? I'm guessing the latter and the
former, respectively!

tom

--
Information is not knowledge. -- Albert Einstein

On Apr 13, 12:14*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
Right,

Been reading the last issue of London Loop. In an article about work on
the Northern line, it says:

* There will be more trains too - making a total of 24 on the central and
* northern branches, and 32 on the Morden section.

Do they mean trains, or trains per hour? Or something else? And is that 24
on each branch, or between the two? I'm guessing the latter and the
former, respectively!

Are these the improvements that are due to resignalling but being
attributed to splitting the line in order to justify the inconvenience
caused by that, but then attributed to the signalling as well to
justify the disruption caused by the signalling work, thus having all
cakes and eating them?

"MIG" wrote in message
...

Are these the improvements that are due to resignalling but being
attributed to splitting the line in order to justify the inconvenience
caused by that, but then attributed to the signalling as well to
justify the disruption caused by the signalling work,

It always puzzles me why they think no one travelling south to north wants
to go to the West End. Often there are hundreds of people changing at
Kennington, with just a few left on the train to go to the City.

Ian

On Apr 13, 12:43*pm, "Ian F." wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message

...

Are these the improvements that are due to resignalling but being
attributed to splitting the line in order to justify the inconvenience
caused by that, but then attributed to the signalling as well to
justify the disruption caused by the signalling work,

It always puzzles me why they think no one travelling south to north wants
to go to the West End. Often there are hundreds of people changing at
Kennington, with just a few left on the train to go to the City.

Ian

I think that's purely because terminating at Kennington from the
Charing Cross direction is much easier operationally (from the City
requires reversing in a siding, not that that isn't done in plenty of
other places).

MIG wrote:
On Apr 13, 12:43 pm, "Ian F." wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message

...

Are these the improvements that are due to resignalling but being
attributed to splitting the line in order to justify the
inconvenience caused by that, but then attributed to the signalling
as well to justify the disruption caused by the signalling work,

It always puzzles me why they think no one travelling south to north
wants to go to the West End. Often there are hundreds of people
changing at Kennington, with just a few left on the train to go to
the City.

I think that's purely because terminating at Kennington from the
Charing Cross direction is much easier operationally (from the City
requires reversing in a siding, not that that isn't done in plenty of
other places).

There's a rather nice diagram of Kennington on my site at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro.../stations.html
In particular, Charing Cross reversers don't have to share track with any
City trains, whereas City reversers have to share track first with Charing
Cross-Mordens and then with Morden - Charing Crosses. LUL are well aware
that the West End is much busier than the City outside the peaks, but for
fit people a cross-platform interchange is practically as good as a through
train.

On Mon, 13 Apr 2009, MIG wrote:

On Apr 13, 12:14*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:

Been reading the last issue of London Loop. In an article about work on
the Northern line, it says:

* There will be more trains too - making a total of 24 on the central and
* northern branches, and 32 on the Morden section.

Do they mean trains, or trains per hour? Or something else? And is that 24
on each branch, or between the two? I'm guessing the latter and the
former, respectively!

Are these the improvements that are due to resignalling but being
attributed to splitting the line in order to justify the inconvenience
caused by that, but then attributed to the signalling as well to justify
the disruption caused by the signalling work, thus having all cakes and
eating them?

I don't know, but now i want cake.

Are you suggesting that with the new signalling, the line could be run
un-split and be as frequent and reliable as in the split case?

tom

--
Information is not knowledge. -- Albert Einstein

On Mon, 13 Apr 2009, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:14:00 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

Been reading the last issue of London Loop. In an article about work on
the Northern line, it says:

There will be more trains too - making a total of 24 on the central and
northern branches, and 32 on the Morden section.

Do they mean trains, or trains per hour? Or something else? And is that 24
on each branch, or between the two? I'm guessing the latter and the
former, respectively!

They mean trains per hour. It is 24 tph per central area branch with 16
turning at Kennington and 8 running through to Morden IIRC.

Presumably, 16 turning from the CX branch only, with all Banks running
through to Morden? Making 24 from Bank + (24 - 16 =) 8 from CX = 32?

tom

--
Information is not knowledge. -- Albert Einstein

On Mon, 13 Apr 2009, John Rowland wrote:

MIG wrote:
On Apr 13, 12:43 pm, "Ian F." wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message

...

Are these the improvements that are due to resignalling but being
attributed to splitting the line in order to justify the
inconvenience caused by that, but then attributed to the signalling
as well to justify the disruption caused by the signalling work,

It always puzzles me why they think no one travelling south to north
wants to go to the West End. Often there are hundreds of people
changing at Kennington, with just a few left on the train to go to
the City.

I think that's purely because terminating at Kennington from the
Charing Cross direction is much easier operationally (from the City
requires reversing in a siding, not that that isn't done in plenty of
other places).

There's a rather nice diagram of Kennington on my site at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro.../stations.html
In particular, Charing Cross reversers don't have to share track with any
City trains, whereas City reversers have to share track first with Charing
Cross-Mordens and then with Morden - Charing Crosses. LUL are well aware
that the West End is much busier than the City outside the peaks, but for
fit people a cross-platform interchange is practically as good as a through
train.

I can understand why thery run most trains to Bank in the peaks - because
of the track layout, plus the lesser fact that the Bank/CX demand ratio
his higher in the peaks than off-peak.

What i don't get is why the off-peak pattern runs all through trains to
Bank, reversing *everything* from CX. There, the density of trains is much
lower, so the track issue is surely irrelevant - even with the awkward
layout, you could surely run all trains to CX, and have space to reverse
Banks? Since in the off-peak the Bank/CX demand ratio falls dramatically,
this would serve people much better.

The existence of the cross-platform interchange to the Vic at Stockwell
may be relevant here; a huge number of people coming from Morden who want
the west end change there, IME. If they're going to do that anyway, then
running trains up the CX branch is not so important.

tom

--
Information is not knowledge. -- Albert Einstein

"Tom Anderson" wrote :
Are you suggesting that with the new signalling, the line could be run
un-split and be as frequent and reliable as in the split case?

Most of the Northern Line unreliability originates at the Camden junctions,
not at the southern end.
A much higher number (and proportion) of West End trains could terminate at
Morden, rather than Kennington, once the signalling allows a higher line
capacity.

The main reason that most City, rather than West End, trains continue to
Morden is simply the limited reversing capacity at Kennington on that
branch. But needless to say, failing to utilise what reversing capacity they
have got is sold to us as a reliability gain, rather than what it really
is - 'operational convenience'. And maybe softening us up for the line split

During much of the 1990s, many more trains on the West End branch terminated
at Morden; it's perfectly possible, and IIRC, the Tooting reversing
facilities are underused, too.


--

Andrew

"She plays the tuba.
It is the only instrument capable
of imitating a distress call."

On Apr 13, 2:03*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 13 Apr 2009, MIG wrote:
On Apr 13, 12:14*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:

Been reading the last issue of London Loop. In an article about work on
the Northern line, it says:

* There will be more trains too - making a total of 24 on the central and
* northern branches, and 32 on the Morden section.

Do they mean trains, or trains per hour? Or something else? And is that 24
on each branch, or between the two? I'm guessing the latter and the
former, respectively!

Are these the improvements that are due to resignalling but being
attributed to splitting the line in order to justify the inconvenience
caused by that, but then attributed to the signalling as well to justify
the disruption caused by the signalling work, thus having all cakes and
eating them?

I don't know, but now i want cake.

Are you suggesting that with the new signalling, the line could be run
un-split and be as frequent and reliable as in the split case?

Probably as reliably as now anyway and certainly as frequent. I think
that the split is a case of the common tactic of reducing the service/
convenience in order to get browny points for "punctuality" (because
it takes less effort to run it on time). But the signalling allows
for some compensation in increased tph.

I am pretty certain that the increased tph is due to the signalling
rather than the split, and that the movements are equally disruptive
whichever pair of branches is involved.

Some increased slack for punctuality in the overall service may result
from the split, ie delays from one branch not affecting both branches
the other side of Camden. I can't see that that has anything to do
with tph.