Photography on London Underground - yes, it's allowed
 

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 15:11:02 +0100, David A Stocks put finger to
keyboard and typed:

"Mark Goodge" wrote in message
shouse.net...

That is, effectively, saying that making way for an emergency vehicle
is not considered sufficient grounds to challenge an automatically
issued fixed penalty notice from a camera monitored location. Bus
lanes are one common example of such locations, others would be
light-controlled junctions that have red light cameras.

If one had passed the red light in order to make way for an emergency
vehicle (see above) it would probably be fairly obvious from the pictures
what had happened.

It may be, or it may not, But it doesn't actually matter - the point
is that getting out of the way of an emergency vehicle isn't
sufficient excuse for passing a red light, and so any automated FPN
for doing so will be upheld if you appeal it.

Mark
--
Blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
Stuff: http://www.good-stuff.co.uk

Photography on London Underground - yes, it's allowed
 

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 13:49:32 +0100, Tony Polson
wrote:

"MB" wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 15:20:08 on Sat, 18
Apr 2009, John Rowland remarked:
Once a police car even pulled up behind me in Greenwich town centre and
put the sirens on (at 3am!) causing me to drive through the red light out
of their way, and then they drove through the lights and put the sirens
off.

Sirens are not enough to allow someone to break the law by running a red
light. You need to be instructed to do so by a policeman in uniform,
which means you need to see that the people giving the instructions are
both police, and in uniform.


And even then you could be fined if there is a Red Light Camera and find it
very difficult to prove you moved out of the way of a police car. If you
write the police and ask should you through a red light in circumstances
like that then you will told that you should never go through a red light.

Wasn't there was a recent case where a motorist was prosecuted for
moving into a bus lane momentarily to allow an ambulance to pass?

If it was a prosecution based on Mk1 eyeball evidence I would not be
surprised if the driver's interpretation of "momentarily" was at odds
with the observer's evidence.

Photography on London Underground - yes, it's allowed
 

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 17:18:06 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2009, John Rowland wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 17 Apr 2009, Mizter T wrote:

Whatever, the police really need to get their act in order.

Oh, you noticed that?

I am really utterly perplexed by how the police maange to get away
with being a bunch of incompetent thugs. Not that there aren't good
individual policemen, but there are certainly some very bad ones,
and the organisation as a whole is a disaster. It just seems that
nobody with the power to do anything about it gives a toss. Or has
it just not occurred to people that things could be any better?

The problem is that policemen who joined because they wish to uphold
the law feel outnumbered by policemen who joined because they wish
to get away with breaking the law - so outnumbered that they can't
even enjoy mixing in the staff canteen any more, and end up quitting
the force.

I could well believe it, but do you have any specific reason to think
that?

The silences and facial expressions on ex-coppers faces when they tell you
they are ex-coppers.

In years gone by in the Met. there seemed to be a tendency for
[allegedly] good or bad police to clump in different stations
resulting in various tales about "that lot over at X".

Photography on London Underground - yes, it's allowed
 

In message , at 14:47:32 on Sun, 19
Apr 2009, John Rowland
remarked:
Why?

Because politics goes in cycles. There are such things as "political
will", "political capital" and "political opportunity". They all work
on different cycles.

To get anything changed, you have to try to get your initiative to
coincide with as many of the three as possible. One is usually not
enough. Three is almost impossible. Two is the best you can hope
for, but timing is of the essence because you have to time it for
when two of the different cycles coincide.

The boat has sailed for, among other things, House Of Lords reform,
Regional Government and Police Reform. At some future point, the
cycles may coincide once more. Until then, these ideas are dead in
the water.

You've given a longer version of what Mizter T said, but you haven't really
said why.

What he says is true. "Why" is it true - well it's a bit like the laws
of physics. You can't get things changed unless enough people agree with
you. And that means assembling a critical mass of opinion, which also
requires at least two of those three elements.
--
Roland Perry

Photography on London Underground - yes, it's allowed
 

In message , at 15:11:02 on Sun, 19 Apr
2009, David A Stocks remarked:
That is, effectively, saying that making way for an emergency vehicle
is not considered sufficient grounds to challenge an automatically
issued fixed penalty notice from a camera monitored location. Bus
lanes are one common example of such locations, others would be
light-controlled junctions that have red light cameras.

If one had passed the red light in order to make way for an emergency
vehicle (see above) it would probably be fairly obvious from the
pictures what had happened.

Apparently not, as there are people who been caught on camera running a
red light to get out of the way, and no emergency vehicle in the frame.
--
Roland Perry

Photography on London Underground - yes, it's allowed
 

"John Rowland" wrote:

Tony Polson wrote:
"John Rowland" wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

Anyway I reckon the boat for significant structural police reform in
this country has already sailed, and it was missed. It'll be a while
until there's another sailing.

Why?

Because politics goes in cycles. There are such things as "political
will", "political capital" and "political opportunity". They all work
on different cycles.

To get anything changed, you have to try to get your initiative to
coincide with as many of the three as possible. One is usually not
enough. Three is almost impossible. Two is the best you can hope
for, but timing is of the essence because you have to time it for
when two of the different cycles coincide.

The boat has sailed for, among other things, House Of Lords reform,
Regional Government and Police Reform. At some future point, the
cycles may coincide once more. Until then, these ideas are dead in
the water.

You've given a longer version of what Mizter T said, but you haven't really
said why.


On the contrary, I explained precisely why:


Because politics goes in cycles. There are such things as "political
will", "political capital" and "political opportunity". They all work
on different cycles.

Photography on London Underground - yes, it's allowed
 

Photography on London Underground - yes, it's allowed
 

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 15:34:22 +0100, Mark Goodge
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 15:11:02 +0100, David A Stocks put finger to
keyboard and typed:

"Mark Goodge" wrote in message
kshouse.net...

That is, effectively, saying that making way for an emergency vehicle
is not considered sufficient grounds to challenge an automatically
issued fixed penalty notice from a camera monitored location. Bus
lanes are one common example of such locations, others would be
light-controlled junctions that have red light cameras.

If one had passed the red light in order to make way for an emergency
vehicle (see above) it would probably be fairly obvious from the pictures
what had happened.

It may be, or it may not, But it doesn't actually matter - the point
is that getting out of the way of an emergency vehicle isn't
sufficient excuse for passing a red light, and so any automated FPN
for doing so will be upheld if you appeal it.

The appropriate phrase when attempting to negate such an offence is
IMU usually "lawful excuse or authority" NOT "_legal_ excuse or
authority" thus requiring the intervention of a judge to decide, _not_
the police or other form of legal accuser. Statutes themselves often
provide specific exemptions (not always in an obvious manner) but
general operation of law also involves get out clauses involving
necessity, misunderstanding, lack of required intention etc. A simple
question to be posed by the defence could be something like "If Mr X
had not got out of your way and your emergency call had been
cancelled, what would have been your next action?". It has to
remembered that many apparently silly prosecutions make the headlines
when the person is convicted in a magistrates' court but have been
forgotten by the time a successful appeal is made later in a higher
court outwith the area covered by the original reporting newspaper and
thus avoid being "lifted" by the national newspapers as follow-up
material.

Photography on London Underground - yes, it's allowed
 

"Tony Polson" wrote in message
...

Because politics goes in cycles. There are such things as "political
will", "political capital" and "political opportunity". They all work
on different cycles.

As Norman Tebbit might not have said :-)

Getting coat...

Paul

Photography on London Underground - yes, it's allowed
 

In message
Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 11:56:31 on Sun,
19 Apr 2009, rail remarked:

I would take a police car behind me blipping his siren as an
instruction to move aside.

The Met advice makes it quite clear what their expectations are.

I did point out that specifically the Met were not involved.

I would not expect other forces to have different advice, particularly
when it comes to running red lights.

The key word is expectations, not instructions.


Note that doesn't necessarily mean running the red light as in
crossing the junction, but, as in the two times I've done it (and not
been prosecuted) crossing the white stop line

The offence is crossing the white line, not literally passing the red
light.

Hence why I said that, your point is?

That you were leaving yourself open to prosecution, especially if there
had been a camera.

So how come I have blatantly broken the law twice right in front of a
policeman in uniform and not been prosecuted?

--
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail