On Apr 20, 2:00*pm, Paul Weaver wrote:

On 20 Apr, 13:42, Mizter T wrote:

[snip]

Vauxhall's routing point is Clapham Junction, which is a destination
on map LM. A Bletchley/Watford - London ticket should presumably be
valid to Vauxhall via CLJ, as the valid route is LM, and that covers
CLJ.

I use a LBZ - SPB season ticket almost every day, so asked National
Rail enquiries.

I'm shortly renewing my Leighton Buzzard - Euston (rail only) annual
season ticket. While this is my normal route, I'd like the option to
use the new station at Shepherds Bush in future.

I've asked guards on the Southern service from Watford and they've
told me my ticket is valid, however I'm completely confident, and
would prefer to avoid any future arguments - I don't want to be on the
wrong end of a penalty fare.

My ticket is valid from Leighton Buzzard to London Terminals. I
believe London Terminals includes Vauxhall, and the shortest route
from Leighton Buzzard to Vauxhall is via Kensington Olympia. When I
check the online journey planner for "Leighton Buzzard to Vauxhall via
Kensington Olympia", it tells me it's a valid route, and tries to sell
me a single to London Terminals, at £15.90 (same as a single to
Euston).

I think this means my season ticket is valid on this route. However a
ticket from "Leighton Buzzard" to "Shepherds Bush" or "Kensington
Olympia" is £16.70.

As my season ticket is valid for a break of journey anywhere along a
valid route, and the ticket to Vauxhall via Kensington Olympia passes
through Shepherds Bush, I'd assume my ticket would be valid for
alighting at either of those stations. Is this correct?

The response was positive:

Thank you for you eMail regarding using a Season Ticket.

If you were travelling direct into London the 7 Day Standard Season
would only be valid to London Euston as this ticket does not include
use of the London Underground. ***However according to the information
that we hold if you travel via Kensington Olympia you will be allowed
to use this ticket to Vauxhall.***

A break of Journey is allowed on both portions of this ticket as long
it is within the validity of the ticket. For further ticket
information please select the following link:

If ATOC say it's

You trailed off at the end there! I presume you were to say something
like 'if ATOC says it's valid, then doesn't that by definition make it
valid', or some such. I do note their get out clause, which is "[...]
according to the information that we hold[...]" - the author is not so
bold as to state that the answer given is completely definitive.

As I say elsewhere, I'm not really convinced that a Watford Jn to
London Terminals ticket is supposed to be valid to Vauxhall. ('But
what do you know', I hear you say - 'you haven't even got your head
around the routing guide' - that's a very fair criticism, I say.)

The critical thing here would be whether or not the gates at
Shepherd's Bush WLL accept your "London Terminals" ticket. I bet that
they don't, and I reckon that the gateline staff would be suspicious
of it too. I suppose that brandishing a print-off of the email you got
from NRE might help, but that fact that it doesn't explicitly mention
finishing/starting short from other stations could be problematic
(though it does mention travelling "via Kensington Olympia" which
might provide a clue).

"Mizter T" wrote

However, given the apparent state of distinct confusion on the matter,
replete with NRES proclaiming that it is valid to use it to Vauxhall,
along with ticket office staff at Vauxhall and seemingly also
Bletchley saying likewise, then if a passenger uses such a ticket for
a journey via the WLL then I can't see how they can possibly be
accused of any wrongdoing whatsoever.

Of course, anyone actually travelling from Watford Junction or north of
there to Vauxhall would be much more likely to go via Euston and the
Victoria Line, and should be ticketed accordingly.

Peter

On Apr 21, 10:46*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

However, given the apparent state of distinct confusion on the matter,
replete with NRES proclaiming that it is valid to use it to Vauxhall,
along with ticket office staff at Vauxhall and seemingly also
Bletchley saying likewise, then if a passenger uses such a ticket for
a journey via the WLL then I can't see how they can possibly be
accused of any wrongdoing whatsoever.

Of course, anyone actually travelling from Watford Junction or north of
there to Vauxhall would be much more likely to go via Euston and the
Victoria Line, and should be ticketed accordingly.


Absolutely.
But (a) if they enquire about the possibility of a cheaper route via
the WLL and are told that it is possible and indeed legit then they
might choose to go that way if they're price concious and are willing
to put up with the longer journey, or even just dislike the tube.
And (b) whilst it's obviously be against the predominant flow, there
undoubtedly will have been commuters who have started their journey at
Vauxhall with Watford Jn as the destination (though I quite agree that
in all likelihood they too will have gone via the Victoria line and
Euston).

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...


"Mizter T" wrote

However, given the apparent state of distinct confusion on the matter,
replete with NRES proclaiming that it is valid to use it to Vauxhall,
along with ticket office staff at Vauxhall and seemingly also
Bletchley saying likewise, then if a passenger uses such a ticket for
a journey via the WLL then I can't see how they can possibly be
accused of any wrongdoing whatsoever.

Of course, anyone actually travelling from Watford Junction or north of
there to Vauxhall would be much more likely to go via Euston and the
Victoria Line, and should be ticketed accordingly.

Peter
Why would they obviously go via Euston? Amitted I did this a few years ago.
Train started at Watford so you get the choice of a seat as opposed to
standing crammed on a Euston train. Air conditioned versed an overheated
321. Avoid the crush on the Victoria line and the stifling heat. A no
brainer really.

Kevin

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

On Apr 20, 8:28 pm, "Zen83237" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:
[x-posted to uk.railway]
[original thread on uk.transport.london]

On Apr 19, 9:34 pm, "Zen83237" wrote:

I know that a Watford Junc to London Terminals ticket is valid to
Vauxhall
but can I use it to Shepherds Bush.

Kevin

I have previously come across this notion that Vauxhall is a valid
"London Terminal" for journeys from the West London Line, but I'm
really not convinced by it. I readily admit that I have not delved
into the mysterious depths of the Routing Guide, but this proposition
just seems to be pretty counter-intuitive to me.

~~~~~~~~~~

Believe me, I used to do it every day. And just to confirm it a season
ticket bought at Vauxhall to Watford was endorsed London terminals. It was
at Watford that I used to get trouble convincing them.

Kevin


You won't like what I'm going to say - but just because a ticket is
issued with assurances that it is valid doesn't actually mean it is
legit under the rules. The ticket you had issued at Vauxhall was from
London Terminals to Watford Jn - but just because Vauxhall is itself a
London Terminal that doesn't mean that the ticket is valid from
Vauxhall to Watford Jn. The ticket could just as well have been issued
at say Fenchurch Street - after all, theoretically speaking all ticket
offices are capable of issuing tickets from anywhere to anywhere else
on the National Rail network.

Certainly all longer distance tickets from Vauxhall are issued from
"London Terminals". I think it used to be the case that all tickets
from Vauxhall were issued from "London Terminals", but since zonal
fares for all rail journeys wholly within London were introduced in
2007 I believe this may have changed, reason being that Vauxhall is in
zone 2, so issuing a ticket as if it were also valid from/to Waterloo
in zone 1 would mean it would be more expensive than it should be - so
I think fares for journeys within London are now issued from Vauxhall.

Anyway, that's a sideline issue - as I said tickets for longer
distance journeys are all issued from "London Terminals". The fact
that this is how things are done might well have led to ticket office
staff at Vauxhall thinking that this means a London Terminals to
Watford Jn ticket that spews out of their machine is inevitably valid
from Vauxhall.

By the sounds of other posts on this thread it would appear there are
perhaps several systems - e.g. RJIS - that show it as a valid route. I
contend that they are likely to be wrong, and that a Watford Jn to
London Terminals ticket is actually only valid between Watford Jn and
Euston.

However, given the apparent state of distinct confusion on the matter,
replete with NRES proclaiming that it is valid to use it to Vauxhall,
along with ticket office staff at Vauxhall and seemingly also
Bletchley saying likewise, then if a passenger uses such a ticket for
a journey via the WLL then I can't see how they can possibly be
accused of any wrongdoing whatsoever.

Unless that is I'm very wrong and Watford Jn to Vauxhall via the WLL
really is valid. I just can't see that making much sense though.

Well what can I say. With the exception of occasionally the staff at Watford
wanting to sell me a travel card the ticket I was sold was Watford Junc to
London terminals if I bought it at Watford or London terminals to Watford if
I bought it at Vauxhall. Not once, not twice, but every week for a year.
Whether it was right or not I don't care. That is what they sold me and it
worked at the gates at Vauxhall.

Kevin

On 20 Apr, 15:55, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 20 Apr, 15:40, Alistair Bell wrote:
it's clear that the shortest rail-only route to
Vauxhall is on the direct train to Clapham Junction. ...

I don't think you can do that - it's the shortest route to a London
Terminal (ie the nearest one), with allowances for journeys through
London Bridge etc. Otherwise - as you mention - it starts getting
silly. Not that this is codified anywhere.

If it's not documented anywhere, then my opinion is the opposite. In
the absence of a documented restriction, the passenger can choose
which station to travel to within a group by a permitted route, and
doubling back is often specifically allowed:
"GROUP STATIONS
The stations listed at the bottom of this page are grouped together to
improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a
wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may
travel via any station in a group, including doubling back, provided
that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin
and destination stations. This extended availability is for
interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or
destination stations are part of a group."
(http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/R...ctions.htm#how
%20to%20determine)

On Apr 22, 1:49*am, "John @ home" wrote:
If it's not documented anywhere, then my opinion is the opposite. In
the absence of a documented restriction, the passenger can choose
which station to travel to within a group by a permitted route, and
doubling back is often specifically allowed

But that only applies when the station group is in the middle of a
journey.
"This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does
not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a
group."

So it can never apply to tickets to/from London Terminals.

The relevant verbiage is in the conditions of carriage:

"You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in
[...] trains which take the shortest route which can be used by
scheduled passenger services"

I can't interpret that as allowing anything other than the nearest
London Terminal.

The fares manual says:

"Fares for travel to and from London Terminals are shown in Section B
and are valid at the following London Stations subject to the route of
the rail journey being undertaken,"

Which is a fairly explicit declaration that only a subset of terminals
is available, and dependent on where you start from.

U

On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:18:57 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant
wrote:

"You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in
[...] trains which take the shortest route which can be used by
scheduled passenger services"

I can't interpret that as allowing anything other than the nearest
London Terminal.

You missed the bit about other routes permitted using the Routeing
Guide!

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Apr 22, 7:04*am, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
You missed the bit about other routes permitted using the Routeing
Guide!

Well yes! This sub-thread was about whether you can use the "Shortest
Route" rule to get yourself to an arbitrary London Terminal when the
Routeing Guide doesn't have a route that gets you to it.

U

On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:35:20 +0100, Barry Salter wrote:

The key anomaly is that Vauxhall is a London Terminal but is NOT a
London Group Routeing Point. It has London as a routeing point but
also has Clapham Junction. According to map OV, which controls both
flows, the only valid route from Watford Junction to London Group
Routeing Point is directly into Euston -- but from Watford to Clapham
Junction (and hence Vauxhall) map OV takes you down the West London
Line.

However, given that the single fare to Clapham Junction is higher than
that to London, you're not actually allowed to use Clapham Junction as
a Routeing Point. London would be the only Routeing Point for
Vauxhall.

However, Watford Junction is a routeing point, and London is a (Group)
routeing point, so you don't have to do a fares check to determine valid
routes, just check the map(s).

As stated above, Vauxhall isn't part of the London Group routeing
point. So you do have to do the fares check.