Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
 

In article ,
(Barry Salter) wrote:

The FRPP[2] has the following to say about tickets to "London
Terminals":

Fares for travel to and from London Terminals are valid at the
following London Stations *subject to the route of the rail journey
being undertaken*, but do *not* include travel between these
stations on London Underground, Docklands Light Railway or London
Buses. /(In addition London Terminals fares are *not* valid if
travelling beyond St. Pancras International from the north or
beyond City Thameslink from the south.)/

City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge, London Cannon
Street, London Charing Cross, London Euston, London Fenchurch
Street, London Kings Cross, London Marylebone, London Liverpool
Street, London Paddington, London St Pancras International, London
Victoria, London Waterloo, Moorgate Underground, Old Street
Underground, Vauxhall.

For example:-

+ A ticket from 'Birmingham Stations' to 'LONDON TERMINALS' may be
valid to Euston or Marylebone, or both, but it is not valid for
onward travel to Liverpool Street or Victoria via London
Underground.

+ A ticket from 'LONDON TERMINALS' to 'Brighton' route 'ANY
PERMITTED' is valid from Blackfriars, Cannon Street, Charing Cross,
City Thameslink, London Bridge, Victoria, Vauxhall or Waterloo. It
is not however valid from Euston or any other designated London
terminal station.

*A Travelcard or other ticket valid for travel in Zone U1 will be
required if the customer wishes to end or start their journey at
any other London terminal station not on the line of route.*

YMMV, IANAL, etc.

Cheers,

Barry


[1] For routeing purposes, London comprises Bethnal Green,
Blackfriars, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, City Thameslink, Euston,
Fenchurch Street, Kings Cross, Kings Cross Thameslink(!), Liverpool
Street, London Bridge, Marylebone, Moorgate, Old Street,
Paddington, St Pancras, Victoria, Waterloo and Waterloo East.

[2] Fares and Retail Publications Portal

Hmm. This doesn't seem to fit in with FCC's view. I have on more than one
occasion been advised that I can go beyond King's Cross from Cambridge via
SPILL (explicitly to City Thameslink where their lost property office is
as well as to Moorgate via the widened lines before closure). The ticket
barriers at King's Cross always return my tickets. That can only be
because they can be further used.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
 

On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:40:56 -0700 (PDT),
Alistair Bell wrote:
On Apr 20, 9:05*am, "Paul Rigg" wrote:
Vauxhall is a London Terminal, but only if there's a valid route.
Which there isn't from Watford Junction - Euston is your only option,
which also excludes Shepherd's Bush.

The key anomaly is that Vauxhall is a London Terminal but is NOT a
London Group Routeing Point. It has London as a routeing point but
also has Clapham Junction. According to map OV, which controls both
flows, the only valid route from Watford Junction to London Group
Routeing Point is directly into Euston -- but from Watford to Clapham
Junction (and hence Vauxhall) map OV takes you down the West London
Line.

However, given that the single fare to Clapham Junction is higher than
that to London, you're not actually allowed to use Clapham Junction as
a Routeing Point. London would be the only Routeing Point for
Vauxhall.


Don't get your comment about fares to Clapham Junction?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...res=Show+fares
Peak 4.00, Offpeak 2.00
(I have no idea what the Oyster fare would be via Euston. The above will
be avoiding Euston where you cannot avoid touching out and back in - but
not necessarily avoiding Z1 - changing at Harrow&W to the Bakerloo line
will get you via Z1 without the touch at Euston)

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...res=Show+fares
Peak 6.00, Offpeak 3.50

GNER website gives
Single Watford Junction - London Euston 7.80
Watford Junction - Clapham Junction
7.10 Direct on SN (Some 6.00 offpeak)
10.90 WJ - Eus - Victoria - CJ
10.90 WJ - Eus - Vauxhall - CJ

Incidentally, Harrow&W to CJ oyster gives cash fare as 3.20 at any time
(Doesn't specify a route but presumably means not Z1?)

GNER gives this fare on all non via Euston trains. 6.30 via EUS.

GNER gives WJ-H&W as 3.20 making it 6.20/9.50 if you travel on a train
that stops at H&W.

Oyster gives WJ-H&W as 2.50/1.10 but its more than just needing a
train that stops, you've got to touch out (and back in on a different
card if you're intending to continue on oyster)

Tim.

p.s. GNER is NXEC now but I still go to www.gner.co.uk because I can
never remember the 40 character long domain they use.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
 

On 23 Apr, 14:43, wrote:
Hmm. This doesn't seem to fit in with FCC's view. I have on more than one
occasion been advised that I can go beyond King's Cross from Cambridge via
SPILL (explicitly to City Thameslink where their lost property office is
as well as to Moorgate via the widened lines before closure).

You seem to have missed this specific exclusion:

"In addition London Terminals fares are *not* valid if
travelling beyond St. Pancras International from the north or
beyond City Thameslink from the south."

The ticket
barriers at King's Cross always return my tickets. That can only be
because they can be further used.

GN tickets are valid on the tube from KX to Old Street/Moorgate, to
substitute for the Northern City's short hours (though the perk is
available 24/7).

U

Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
 

In article
,
(Mr Thant) wrote:

On 23 Apr, 14:43, wrote:
Hmm. This doesn't seem to fit in with FCC's view. I have on more
than one
occasion been advised that I can go beyond King's Cross from
Cambridge via
SPILL (explicitly to City Thameslink where their lost property
office is
as well as to Moorgate via the widened lines before closure).

You seem to have missed this specific exclusion:

"In addition London Terminals fares are *not* valid if
travelling beyond St. Pancras International from the north or
beyond City Thameslink from the south."

I've read that repeatedly but had different information from FCC, more
than once.

The ticket barriers at King's Cross always return my tickets. That
can only be because they can be further used.

GN tickets are valid on the tube from KX to Old Street/Moorgate, to
substitute for the Northern City's short hours (though the perk is
available 24/7).

My explicit questions covered City Thameslink (for the lost property
office) and Moorgate (Thameslink) for when I took my pre-closure pictures.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
 

On Apr 23, 5:18*pm, wrote:

In article
,
(Mr Thant) wrote:

On 23 Apr, 14:43, wrote:
Hmm. This doesn't seem to fit in with FCC's view. I have on
more than one occasion been advised that I can go beyond
King's Cross from Cambridge via SPILL (explicitly to City
Thameslink where their lost property office is as well as to
Moorgate via the widened lines before closure).

You seem to have missed this specific exclusion:

"In addition London Terminals fares are *not* valid if
travelling beyond St. Pancras International from the north or
beyond City Thameslink from the south."

I've read that repeatedly but had different information from FCC, more
than once.

That information is just wrong.


The ticket barriers at King's Cross always return my tickets. That
can only be because they can be further used.

GN tickets are valid on the tube from KX to Old Street/Moorgate, to
substitute for the Northern City's short hours (though the perk is
available 24/7).

My explicit questions covered City Thameslink (for the lost property
office) and Moorgate (Thameslink) for when I took my pre-closure pictures..

This is a bit out of date now as unfortunately all such information is
now all buried in the password-protected FRPP system, but take a look
at this - it's section A of NFM98:
http://www.atoc.org/retail/_download...8_Common_A.pdf

Specifically take a look at page 6, under the heading "Travel to and
from London Terminals" the following text appears italicised contained
in brackets:

---quote---
In addition London Terminals fares are NOT valid if travelling beyond
St. Pancras International from the north or beyond City Thameslink
from the south.
---/quote---

Earlier editions of the NFM even had a helpful diagram of the
Thameslink core route but they did away with this for whatever reason.

At Farringdon there are explicit (LU produced) notices in poster
frames which state that "London Terminals" tickets are not valid to/
from Farringdon (I've heard it said that the LU staff there get a lot
of hassle about this issue).

I think London Terminals tickets *used to* be valid to Moorgate, but
this changed at the time of the blockade in 2005 - see this FCC Meet
the Directors Q&A:
http://snipurl.com/gjq5n

---quote---
Question Number:30
From: Mr Stephen R

Hi,
In response to previous answers regarding "London Terminals" season
tickets. You have previously stated that this ticket was only
introduced when the route was cut off.

I have retained season tickets going back to 2000, which show that it
was possible to get season tickets with London terminals.

Also, when buying daily tickets you can get "london terminals"
tickets. So why not season tickets ?

Customers that pay 3k a year for a moorgate ticket should be allowed
at the very least free Travel to London Bridge. Thameslink certainly
thought so.

When Moorgate line closes, how will Moorgate tickets be handled?

-----
Answer:

Season tickets issued to London Terminals have not been available to
Moorgate on the Thameslink route since the blockade in 2005. The fact
that you have been using them in the mean time does not mean they have
been valid. London Terminals means King's Cross Thameslink or St
Pancras from the north at the moment.

From the Moorgate closure, for a period 2 years, the DfT have agreed
to passengers travelling to Moorgate to continue to do so on National
Rail tickets issued to Moorgate, at no additional charge. After that
date, tickets valid on the Underground will be needed - either pre-pay
or Travelcards.

We have reached agreement with TfL and the DfT to be able to offer
tickets to London Thameslink for travel to any station between St
Pancras and London Bridge / Elephant and Castle. With the imminent
closure of the Moorgate branch though, Moorgate will be excluded from
these arrangements.
---/quote---



Tickets to London Terminals will nonetheless be accepted at Moorgate
because of the concession that exists to allow Great Northern pax to
travel between KXSP and Moorgate (to compensate for the fact that GN
stoppers run to/from KX late evenings and weekends though the
concession is valid at any time).

I think that technically speaking pax from points north on the
Thameslink route could have stayed on the right side of the rules if
they'd have transferred alighted from their Thameslink train at KX
Thameslink/ SPILL and transferred to LU to get to Moorgate. Or does
the Routing Guide somehow require those heading to Old Street/
Moorgate to have come off the Great Northern route as opposed to the
MML/Thameslink route?

Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
 

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

[snip]

Tickets to London Terminals will nonetheless be accepted at Moorgate
because of the concession that exists to allow Great Northern pax to
travel between KXSP and Moorgate (to compensate for the fact that GN
stoppers run to/from KX late evenings and weekends though the
concession is valid at any time).

I think that technically speaking pax from points north on the
Thameslink route could have stayed on the right side of the rules if
they'd have transferred alighted from their Thameslink train at KX
Thameslink/ SPILL and transferred to LU to get to Moorgate. Or does
the Routing Guide somehow require those heading to Old Street/
Moorgate to have come off the Great Northern route as opposed to the
MML/Thameslink route?

The restrictions you quoted only referred with any clarity to routings
from the Thameslink (Midland) line. My questions were about the GN where
what you cite seems not so unambiguous to me. As I said, it's what I've
been told by different people on several different occasions for different
journeys.

I suppose the barriers returning tickets point is to implement the
Moorgate concession, though. There are some GN Inners to and King's Cross
all day, by the way. I've never checked the timetable for details but I
see them on the departure boards.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
 

On 24 Apr, 02:23, wrote:
The restrictions you quoted only referred with any clarity to routings
from the Thameslink (Midland) line. My questions were about the GN where
what you cite seems not so unambiguous to me. As I said, it's what I've
been told by different people on several different occasions for different
journeys.

I think the best way to think of the current regime is as FCC running
a tube service between St Pancras and City Thameslink. Trains from
Bedford et al terminate at SPILL, become a tube service, and restart
again at City Thameslink, and only people with cross-London tickets
are allowed to make the through journey. Taking a train from SPILL to
City Thameslink on your Cambridge-London ticket is the same as trying
to take the tube from KXSP to, say, Victoria.

U

Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
 

On Apr 24, 9:59*am, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 24 Apr, 02:23, wrote:

The restrictions you quoted only referred with any clarity to routings
from the Thameslink (Midland) line. My questions were about the GN where
what you cite seems not so unambiguous to me. As I said, it's what I've
been told by different people on several different occasions for different
journeys.

I think the best way to think of the current regime is as FCC running
a tube service between St Pancras and City Thameslink. Trains from
Bedford et al terminate at SPILL, become a tube service, and restart
again at City Thameslink, and only people with cross-London tickets
are allowed to make the through journey. Taking a train from SPILL to
City Thameslink on your Cambridge-London ticket is the same as trying
to take the tube from KXSP to, say, Victoria.

U

Quite. If you've got a ticket to "London Thameslink" or a ticket
marked "Route: Thameslink" then Thameslink can obviously be used, but
under the rules "London Terminals" tickets do not get one across town.

That's not to say that people using them to do so are evil wrongdoers
- the amount of misunderstanding about this issue is immense,
including amongst rail staff (and FCC bods really should know
better!). It's not helped by some self-service ticket machines
erroneously issuing tickets to "London Terminals" when a Thameslink
destination was specified, and also the fact that from some stations
the fares to London Terminals and central Thameslink stations are the
same price.