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Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
I know that a Watford Junc to London Terminals ticket is valid to Vauxhall
but can I use it to Shepherds Bush. Kevin |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
[x-posted to uk.railway]
[original thread on uk.transport.london] On Apr 19, 9:34*pm, "Zen83237" wrote: I know that a Watford Junc to London Terminals ticket is valid to Vauxhall but can I use it to Shepherds Bush. Kevin I have previously come across this notion that Vauxhall is a valid "London Terminal" for journeys from the West London Line, but I'm really not convinced by it. I readily admit that I have not delved into the mysterious depths of the Routing Guide, but this proposition just seems to be pretty counter-intuitive to me. |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On 20 Apr, 12:39, Mizter T wrote:
I have previously come across this notion that Vauxhall is a valid "London Terminal" for journeys from the West London Line, but I'm really not convinced by it. I readily admit that I have not delved into the mysterious depths of the Routing Guide, but this proposition just seems to be pretty counter-intuitive to me. Vauxhall is a London Terminal, but only if there's a valid route. Which there isn't from Watford Junction - Euston is your only option, which also excludes Shepherd's Bush. All West London Line stations have Clapham Junction as a Routeing Point, and due to zonal fares is acceptable as a Routeing Point. Therefore all routes from Clapham Junction to London Terminals are valid, which gets you to all former Southern Region terminals. Willesden Junction is also a Routeing Point, which gets you to Euston. U |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On Apr 20, 1:16*pm, Mr Thant wrote: On 20 Apr, 12:39, Mizter T wrote: I have previously come across this notion that Vauxhall is a valid "London Terminal" for journeys from the West London Line, but I'm really not convinced by it. I readily admit that I have not delved into the mysterious depths of the Routing Guide, but this proposition just seems to be pretty counter-intuitive to me. Vauxhall is a London Terminal, but only if there's a valid route. Which there isn't from Watford Junction - Euston is your only option, which also excludes Shepherd's Bush. All West London Line stations have Clapham Junction as a Routeing Point, and due to zonal fares is acceptable as a Routeing Point. Therefore all routes from Clapham Junction to London Terminals are valid, which gets you to all former Southern Region terminals. Willesden Junction is also a Routeing Point, which gets you to Euston. U Thanks for that. By the by when I said "journeys from the West London Line" what I actually meant was journeys via the WLL that originate further afield, i.e. Harrow & Wealdstone, Watford Jn, Milton Keynes etc, as opposed to journeys that actually start at a station on the WLL, e.g. Shepherd's Bush or Kensington Olympia. |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On 20 Apr, 13:42, Mizter T wrote:
I have previously come across this notion that Vauxhall is a valid "London Terminal" for journeys from the West London Line, but I'm really not convinced by it. I readily admit that I have not delved into the mysterious depths of the Routing Guide, but this proposition just seems to be pretty counter-intuitive to me. Vauxhall is a London Terminal, but only if there's a valid route. Which there isn't from Watford Junction - Euston is your only option, which also excludes Shepherd's Bush. All West London Line stations have Clapham Junction as a Routeing Point, and due to zonal fares is acceptable as a Routeing Point. Therefore all routes from Clapham Junction to London Terminals are valid, which gets you to all former Southern Region terminals. Willesden Junction is also a Routeing Point, which gets you to Euston. U Thanks for that. By the by when I said "journeys from the West London Line" what I actually *meant was journeys via the WLL that originate further afield, i.e. Harrow & Wealdstone, Watford Jn, Milton Keynes etc, as opposed to journeys that actually start at a station on the WLL, e.g. Shepherd's Bush or Kensington Olympia. Vauxhall's routing point is Clapham Junction, which is a destination on map LM. A Bletchley/Watford - London ticket should presumably be valid to Vauxhall via CLJ, as the valid route is LM, and that covers CLJ. I use a LBZ - SPB season ticket almost every day, so asked National Rail enquiries. I'm shortly renewing my Leighton Buzzard - Euston (rail only) annual season ticket. While this is my normal route, I'd like the option to use the new station at Shepherds Bush in future. I've asked guards on the Southern service from Watford and they've told me my ticket is valid, however I'm completely confident, and would prefer to avoid any future arguments - I don't want to be on the wrong end of a penalty fare. My ticket is valid from Leighton Buzzard to London Terminals. I believe London Terminals includes Vauxhall, and the shortest route from Leighton Buzzard to Vauxhall is via Kensington Olympia. When I check the online journey planner for "Leighton Buzzard to Vauxhall via Kensington Olympia", it tells me it's a valid route, and tries to sell me a single to London Terminals, at £15.90 (same as a single to Euston). I think this means my season ticket is valid on this route. However a ticket from "Leighton Buzzard" to "Shepherds Bush" or "Kensington Olympia" is £16.70. As my season ticket is valid for a break of journey anywhere along a valid route, and the ticket to Vauxhall via Kensington Olympia passes through Shepherds Bush, I'd assume my ticket would be valid for alighting at either of those stations. Is this correct? The response was positive: Thank you for you eMail regarding using a Season Ticket. If you were travelling direct into London the 7 Day Standard Season would only be valid to London Euston as this ticket does not include use of the London Underground. ***However according to the information that we hold if you travel via Kensington Olympia you will be allowed to use this ticket to Vauxhall.*** A break of Journey is allowed on both portions of this ticket as long it is within the validity of the ticket. For further ticket information please select the following link: If ATOC say it's |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
Vauxhall is a London Terminal, but only if there's a valid route. Which there isn't from Watford Junction - Euston is your only option, which also excludes Shepherd's Bush. Question then. When Broad Street was open it would have been a valid London Terminal from Watford Junction. When it closed peak trains were diverted by Graham Road curve of course which would have made Liverpool Street a valid London Terminal, The thought at the time was that you could reach Moorgate (NC) from Highbury and Islington as an alternative to Broad St/Liverpool Street. Is that not still the case? And if you wanted to be pedantic what about Watford Jct, Willesden Jct, West Hamspstead INL) West Hampstead (Thameslink) St Pancras and Farringdon |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On Apr 20, 9:05*am, "Paul Rigg" wrote:
Vauxhall is a London Terminal, but only if there's a valid route. Which there isn't from Watford Junction - Euston is your only option, which also excludes Shepherd's Bush. The key anomaly is that Vauxhall is a London Terminal but is NOT a London Group Routeing Point. It has London as a routeing point but also has Clapham Junction. According to map OV, which controls both flows, the only valid route from Watford Junction to London Group Routeing Point is directly into Euston -- but from Watford to Clapham Junction (and hence Vauxhall) map OV takes you down the West London Line. However, given that the single fare to Clapham Junction is higher than that to London, you're not actually allowed to use Clapham Junction as a Routeing Point. London would be the only Routeing Point for Vauxhall. Double however, it's clear that the shortest rail-only route to Vauxhall is on the direct train to Clapham Junction. (But NOT via Willesden on the Overground, which is fractionally further). Which might make Shepherd's Bush suddenly valid, but then you'd have to start asking hard questions like what the shortest route to Fenchurch Street is, and whether your ticket is suddenly valid via Upper Holloway and Barking. Which leads me to suspect that there in fact isn't a valid fare from Leighton Buzzard to Vauxhall other than one to London U1. (Even though NRES were prepared to sell you one.) So to summarize, I think it's technically invalid, but others may well differ. I think most people who sometimes travel to Euston and sometimes to Shepherd's Bush would buy a Travelcard anyway... Question then. *When Broad Street was open it would have been a valid London Terminal from Watford Junction. *When it closed peak trains were diverted by Graham Road curve of course which would have made Liverpool Street a valid London Terminal, At the time. But those services ceased before routeing was formalized and 'Any Reasonable Route' became 'Any Permitted Route'. The thought at the time was that you could reach Moorgate (NC) from Highbury and Islington as an alternative to Broad St/Liverpool Street. *Is that not still the case? Not any more, though it would very probably have been a Reasonable Route back in the day. Moorgate is a member of London Group, and doesn't appear on map OV. And if you wanted to be pedantic *what about Watford Jct, Willesden Jct, West Hamspstead INL) West Hampstead (Thameslink) St Pancras and Farringdon That wouldn't be valid anyway -- the moment you hit Farringdon you're beyond the validity of a London Terminals ticket. |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On 20 Apr, 15:40, Alistair Bell wrote:
The key anomaly is that Vauxhall is a London Terminal but is NOT a London Group Routeing Point. It has London as a routeing point but also has Clapham Junction. According to map OV, which controls both flows, the only valid route from Watford Junction to London Group Routeing Point is directly into Euston -- but from Watford to Clapham Junction (and hence Vauxhall) map OV takes you down the West London Line. That's a good point. Double however, it's clear that the shortest rail-only route to Vauxhall is on the direct train to Clapham Junction. (But NOT via Willesden on the Overground, which is fractionally further). Which might make Shepherd's Bush suddenly valid, but then you'd have to start asking hard questions like what the shortest route to Fenchurch Street is I don't think you can do that - it's the shortest route to a London Terminal (ie the nearest one), with allowances for journeys through London Bridge etc. Otherwise - as you mention - it starts getting silly. Not that this is codified anywhere. That wouldn't be valid anyway -- the moment you hit Farringdon you're beyond the validity of a London Terminals ticket. Not if you've switched to the tube at KXSP (and assuming Highbury- Moorgate is valid, which it isn't). U |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On 20 Apr, 15:40, Alistair Bell wrote:
So to summarize, I think it's technically invalid, but others may well differ. I think most people who sometimes travel to Euston and sometimes to Shepherd's Bush would buy a Travelcard anyway... Most probably. But last time I used Bletchley ticket office, I'm almost certain I saw an email from ATOC on display (not necessarily intentionally, but you can see the notice boards from the windows) that pretty much said that RJIS was showing Waterloo as valid on a London Terminals ticket via Kenny O, and so that it *was* considered valid! (And presumably by extension Vauxhall). Interesting... Neil |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
In uk.transport.london Alistair Bell wrote:
Question then. ?When Broad Street was open it would have been a valid London Terminal from Watford Junction. ?When it closed peak trains were diverted by Graham Road curve of course which would have made Liverpool Street a valid London Terminal, At the time. But those services ceased before routeing was formalized and 'Any Reasonable Route' became 'Any Permitted Route'. Tickets to London used to be to 'London (SR)' from Surrey/Sussex/Kent directions. What would have applied to the north of London, and would it have divided the terminals you could have travelled to? Theo |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
Alistair Bell wrote:
On Apr 20, 9:05 am, "Paul Rigg" wrote: Vauxhall is a London Terminal, but only if there's a valid route. Which there isn't from Watford Junction - Euston is your only option, which also excludes Shepherd's Bush. The key anomaly is that Vauxhall is a London Terminal but is NOT a London Group Routeing Point. It has London as a routeing point but also has Clapham Junction. According to map OV, which controls both flows, the only valid route from Watford Junction to London Group Routeing Point is directly into Euston -- but from Watford to Clapham Junction (and hence Vauxhall) map OV takes you down the West London Line. However, given that the single fare to Clapham Junction is higher than that to London, you're not actually allowed to use Clapham Junction as a Routeing Point. London would be the only Routeing Point for Vauxhall. However, Watford Junction is a routeing point, and London is a (Group) routeing point, so you don't have to do a fares check to determine valid routes, just check the map(s). Doing that gives Map OV as the only map showing valid route(s) between Watford Junction and London[1], i.e. to Euston via Willesden Junction. The FRPP[2] has the following to say about tickets to "London Terminals": Fares for travel to and from London Terminals are valid at the following London Stations *subject to the route of the rail journey being undertaken*, but do *not* include travel between these stations on London Underground, Docklands Light Railway or London Buses. /(In addition London Terminals fares are *not* valid if travelling beyond St. Pancras International from the north or beyond City Thameslink from the south.)/ City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge, London Cannon Street, London Charing Cross, London Euston, London Fenchurch Street, London Kings Cross, London Marylebone, London Liverpool Street, London Paddington, London St Pancras International, London Victoria, London Waterloo, Moorgate Underground, Old Street Underground, Vauxhall. For example:- + A ticket from 'Birmingham Stations' to 'LONDON TERMINALS' may be valid to Euston or Marylebone, or both, but it is not valid for onward travel to Liverpool Street or Victoria via London Underground. + A ticket from 'LONDON TERMINALS' to 'Brighton' route 'ANY PERMITTED' is valid from Blackfriars, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, City Thameslink, London Bridge, Victoria, Vauxhall or Waterloo. It is not however valid from Euston or any other designated London terminal station. *A Travelcard or other ticket valid for travel in Zone U1 will be required if the customer wishes to end or start their journey at any other London terminal station not on the line of route.* YMMV, IANAL, etc. Cheers, Barry [1] For routeing purposes, London comprises Bethnal Green, Blackfriars, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, City Thameslink, Euston, Fenchurch Street, Kings Cross, Kings Cross Thameslink(!), Liverpool Street, London Bridge, Marylebone, Moorgate, Old Street, Paddington, St Pancras, Victoria, Waterloo and Waterloo East. [2] Fares and Retail Publications Portal |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
"Mizter T" wrote in message ... [x-posted to uk.railway] [original thread on uk.transport.london] On Apr 19, 9:34 pm, "Zen83237" wrote: I know that a Watford Junc to London Terminals ticket is valid to Vauxhall but can I use it to Shepherds Bush. Kevin I have previously come across this notion that Vauxhall is a valid "London Terminal" for journeys from the West London Line, but I'm really not convinced by it. I readily admit that I have not delved into the mysterious depths of the Routing Guide, but this proposition just seems to be pretty counter-intuitive to me. Believe me, I used to do it every day. And just to confirm it a season ticket bought at Vauxhall to Watford was endorsed London terminals. It was at Watford that I used to get trouble convincing them. Kevin |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
"Alistair Bell" wrote in message ... So to summarize, I think it's technically invalid, but others may well differ. I think most people who sometimes travel to Euston and sometimes to Shepherd's Bush would buy a Travelcard anyway... But that is probably because they ask for a ticket to London and in ignorance are given a travel card. I work at Euston so I always get asked inclding zone 1 and I say no but then I know what to ask for. Kevin |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On Apr 20, 12:35*pm, Barry Salter wrote:
Alistair Bell wrote: The key anomaly is that Vauxhall is a London Terminal but is NOT a London Group Routeing Point. It has London as a routeing point but also has Clapham Junction. According to map OV, which controls both flows, the only valid route from Watford Junction to London Group Routeing Point is directly into Euston -- but from Watford to Clapham Junction (and hence Vauxhall) map OV takes you down the West London Line. However, given that the single fare to Clapham Junction is higher than that to London, you're not actually allowed to use Clapham Junction as a Routeing Point. London would be the only Routeing Point for Vauxhall. However, Watford Junction is a routeing point, and London is a (Group) routeing point, so you don't have to do a fares check to determine valid routes, just check the map(s). London is a routeing point, but remember here that we're talking about the special case of Vauxhall, which is a London Terminal, but not a routeing point. So the Clapham Junction fares check (as the other routeing point for Vauxhall) is appropriate as far as I can tell. I tried to get Journey Planner to give me a Leighton Buzzard to Fenchurch Street via Upper Holloway fare, but it refused... |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On 20 Apr 2009 17:13:18 +0100 (BST), Theo Markettos
wrote: In uk.transport.london Alistair Bell wrote: Question then. ?When Broad Street was open it would have been a valid London Terminal from Watford Junction. ?When it closed peak trains were diverted by Graham Road curve of course which would have made Liverpool Street a valid London Terminal, At the time. But those services ceased before routeing was formalized and 'Any Reasonable Route' became 'Any Permitted Route'. Tickets to London used to be to 'London (SR)' from Surrey/Sussex/Kent directions. What would have applied to the north of London, and would it have divided the terminals you could have travelled to? On the DC line and presumably north of Watford (before Capitalcards/Travelcards) season tickets were AFAIR normally issued to either Euston or Broad Street with the option of having both if you paid somewhat more but at that time "London Terminals" or words to that effect was IMU a SR peculiarity. |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
Alistair Bell wrote:
London is a routeing point, but remember here that we're talking about the special case of Vauxhall, which is a London Terminal, but not a routeing point. So the Clapham Junction fares check (as the other routeing point for Vauxhall) is appropriate as far as I can tell. Hrm...Interestingly, having just plugged Watford Junction to Vauxhall into the venerable (Trainline-powered) SWT season ticket search, it's offering the following: Watford Junction - London Terminals Season : £2404 Annual Watford Junction - R2356 AAA R789 Travelcard : £1800 Annual The WebTIS season ticket search and FRPP come up with no fares at all for the journey in question. So depending on who you believe, it may or may not be valid, though my argument would be that Vauxhall is not an "appropriate" terminal on "line of route" between Watford and London. Cheers, Barry |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
"Charles Ellson" wrote On the DC line and presumably north of Watford (before Capitalcards/Travelcards) season tickets were AFAIR normally issued to either Euston or Broad Street with the option of having both if you paid somewhat more but at that time "London Terminals" or words to that effect was IMU a SR peculiarity. London SR fares only came in around 1965. Before then there were different fares to different London termini - for example, from Orpington in 1960 the 2nd class single fare was 2/3 to London Bridge 2/6 to Cannon Street 2/8 to Waterloo or Charing Cross 2/10 to Victoria 3/- to Blackfriars or Holborn Viaduct. Peter |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On Apr 21, 5:24*am, Barry Salter wrote: Alistair Bell wrote: London is a routeing point, but remember here that we're talking about the special case of Vauxhall, which is a London Terminal, but not a routeing point. So the Clapham Junction fares check (as the other routeing point for Vauxhall) is appropriate as far as I can tell. Hrm...Interestingly, having just plugged Watford Junction to Vauxhall into the venerable (Trainline-powered) SWT season ticket search, it's offering the following: Watford Junction - London Terminals Season : £2404 Annual Watford Junction - R2356 AAA R789 Travelcard : £1800 Annual That is interesting. Specifically the output says this in the 'Ticket' field: "STANDARD ANNUAL Watford Junction- Zone R2356 Zones" ....and this in the 'Route' field: "AAA ZONES R789" It is, on other words, a Watford Jn to zones 2-9 Travelcard - but zones 7-9 are strange quasi-zones which exist in the TfL world, but don't really in the world of National Rail ticketing, apart from ghostly appearances such as the one above! I'm pretty certain that the latter Watford Jn to zones 2-9 Travelcard is priced by London Overground (i.e. TfL) as opposed to London Midland. It's obviously a good deal cheaper than the straight up rail- only Watford Jn to London Terminals ticket, and much cheaper still than the Watford Jn to London all-zones Travelcard (i.e. inc. zone 1) at £2724.00 (this is displayed as London - Zone R1256, but again has "AAA ZONES R789" in the Route field so can be used throughout zones 7-9). The WebTIS season ticket search and FRPP come up with no fares at all for the journey in question. So depending on who you believe, it may or may not be valid, though my argument would be that Vauxhall is not an "appropriate" terminal on "line of route" between Watford and London. This is my line of thinking (apols for the pun!) - the notion that it could be seems bizarre to me. |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On Apr 20, 8:28*pm, "Zen83237" wrote: "Mizter T" wrote: [x-posted to uk.railway] [original thread on uk.transport.london] On Apr 19, 9:34 pm, "Zen83237" wrote: I know that a Watford Junc to London Terminals ticket is valid to Vauxhall but can I use it to Shepherds Bush. Kevin I have previously come across this notion that Vauxhall is a valid "London Terminal" for journeys from the West London Line, but I'm really not convinced by it. I readily admit that I have not delved into the mysterious depths of the Routing Guide, but this proposition just seems to be pretty counter-intuitive to me. ~~~~~~~~~~ Believe me, I used to do it every day. And just to confirm it a season ticket bought at Vauxhall to Watford was endorsed London terminals. It was at Watford that I used to get trouble convincing them. Kevin You won't like what I'm going to say - but just because a ticket is issued with assurances that it is valid doesn't actually mean it is legit under the rules. The ticket you had issued at Vauxhall was from London Terminals to Watford Jn - but just because Vauxhall is itself a London Terminal that doesn't mean that the ticket is valid from Vauxhall to Watford Jn. The ticket could just as well have been issued at say Fenchurch Street - after all, theoretically speaking all ticket offices are capable of issuing tickets from anywhere to anywhere else on the National Rail network. Certainly all longer distance tickets from Vauxhall are issued from "London Terminals". I think it used to be the case that all tickets from Vauxhall were issued from "London Terminals", but since zonal fares for all rail journeys wholly within London were introduced in 2007 I believe this may have changed, reason being that Vauxhall is in zone 2, so issuing a ticket as if it were also valid from/to Waterloo in zone 1 would mean it would be more expensive than it should be - so I think fares for journeys within London are now issued from Vauxhall. Anyway, that's a sideline issue - as I said tickets for longer distance journeys are all issued from "London Terminals". The fact that this is how things are done might well have led to ticket office staff at Vauxhall thinking that this means a London Terminals to Watford Jn ticket that spews out of their machine is inevitably valid from Vauxhall. By the sounds of other posts on this thread it would appear there are perhaps several systems - e.g. RJIS - that show it as a valid route. I contend that they are likely to be wrong, and that a Watford Jn to London Terminals ticket is actually only valid between Watford Jn and Euston. However, given the apparent state of distinct confusion on the matter, replete with NRES proclaiming that it is valid to use it to Vauxhall, along with ticket office staff at Vauxhall and seemingly also Bletchley saying likewise, then if a passenger uses such a ticket for a journey via the WLL then I can't see how they can possibly be accused of any wrongdoing whatsoever. Unless that is I'm very wrong and Watford Jn to Vauxhall via the WLL really is valid. I just can't see that making much sense though. |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On Apr 20, 4:19*pm, Neil Williams wrote: On 20 Apr, 15:40, Alistair Bell wrote: So to summarize, I think it's technically invalid, but others may well differ. I think most people who sometimes travel to Euston and sometimes to Shepherd's Bush would buy a Travelcard anyway... Most probably. *But last time I used Bletchley ticket office, I'm almost certain I saw an email from ATOC on display (not necessarily intentionally, but you can see the notice boards from the windows) that pretty much said that RJIS was showing Waterloo as valid on a London Terminals ticket via Kenny O, and so that it *was* considered valid! *(And presumably by extension Vauxhall). Interesting... Interesting indeed, not least because I think it's wrong! |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On Apr 20, 2:00*pm, Paul Weaver wrote: On 20 Apr, 13:42, Mizter T wrote: [snip] Vauxhall's routing point is Clapham Junction, which is a destination on map LM. A Bletchley/Watford - London ticket should presumably be valid to Vauxhall via CLJ, as the valid route is LM, and that covers CLJ. I use a LBZ - SPB season ticket almost every day, so asked National Rail enquiries. I'm shortly renewing my Leighton Buzzard - Euston (rail only) annual season ticket. While this is my normal route, I'd like the option to use the new station at Shepherds Bush in future. I've asked guards on the Southern service from Watford and they've told me my ticket is valid, however I'm completely confident, and would prefer to avoid any future arguments - I don't want to be on the wrong end of a penalty fare. My ticket is valid from Leighton Buzzard to London Terminals. I believe London Terminals includes Vauxhall, and the shortest route from Leighton Buzzard to Vauxhall is via Kensington Olympia. When I check the online journey planner for "Leighton Buzzard to Vauxhall via Kensington Olympia", it tells me it's a valid route, and tries to sell me a single to London Terminals, at £15.90 (same as a single to Euston). I think this means my season ticket is valid on this route. However a ticket from "Leighton Buzzard" to "Shepherds Bush" or "Kensington Olympia" is £16.70. As my season ticket is valid for a break of journey anywhere along a valid route, and the ticket to Vauxhall via Kensington Olympia passes through Shepherds Bush, I'd assume my ticket would be valid for alighting at either of those stations. Is this correct? The response was positive: Thank you for you eMail regarding using a Season Ticket. If you were travelling direct into London the 7 Day Standard Season would only be valid to London Euston as this ticket does not include use of the London Underground. ***However according to the information that we hold if you travel via Kensington Olympia you will be allowed to use this ticket to Vauxhall.*** A break of Journey is allowed on both portions of this ticket as long it is within the validity of the ticket. For further ticket information please select the following link: If ATOC say it's You trailed off at the end there! I presume you were to say something like 'if ATOC says it's valid, then doesn't that by definition make it valid', or some such. I do note their get out clause, which is "[...] according to the information that we hold[...]" - the author is not so bold as to state that the answer given is completely definitive. As I say elsewhere, I'm not really convinced that a Watford Jn to London Terminals ticket is supposed to be valid to Vauxhall. ('But what do you know', I hear you say - 'you haven't even got your head around the routing guide' - that's a very fair criticism, I say.) The critical thing here would be whether or not the gates at Shepherd's Bush WLL accept your "London Terminals" ticket. I bet that they don't, and I reckon that the gateline staff would be suspicious of it too. I suppose that brandishing a print-off of the email you got from NRE might help, but that fact that it doesn't explicitly mention finishing/starting short from other stations could be problematic (though it does mention travelling "via Kensington Olympia" which might provide a clue). |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
"Mizter T" wrote However, given the apparent state of distinct confusion on the matter, replete with NRES proclaiming that it is valid to use it to Vauxhall, along with ticket office staff at Vauxhall and seemingly also Bletchley saying likewise, then if a passenger uses such a ticket for a journey via the WLL then I can't see how they can possibly be accused of any wrongdoing whatsoever. Of course, anyone actually travelling from Watford Junction or north of there to Vauxhall would be much more likely to go via Euston and the Victoria Line, and should be ticketed accordingly. Peter |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On Apr 21, 10:46*am, "Peter Masson" wrote: "Mizter T" wrote However, given the apparent state of distinct confusion on the matter, replete with NRES proclaiming that it is valid to use it to Vauxhall, along with ticket office staff at Vauxhall and seemingly also Bletchley saying likewise, then if a passenger uses such a ticket for a journey via the WLL then I can't see how they can possibly be accused of any wrongdoing whatsoever. Of course, anyone actually travelling from Watford Junction or north of there to Vauxhall would be much more likely to go via Euston and the Victoria Line, and should be ticketed accordingly. Absolutely. But (a) if they enquire about the possibility of a cheaper route via the WLL and are told that it is possible and indeed legit then they might choose to go that way if they're price concious and are willing to put up with the longer journey, or even just dislike the tube. And (b) whilst it's obviously be against the predominant flow, there undoubtedly will have been commuters who have started their journey at Vauxhall with Watford Jn as the destination (though I quite agree that in all likelihood they too will have gone via the Victoria line and Euston). |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
"Peter Masson" wrote in message ... "Mizter T" wrote However, given the apparent state of distinct confusion on the matter, replete with NRES proclaiming that it is valid to use it to Vauxhall, along with ticket office staff at Vauxhall and seemingly also Bletchley saying likewise, then if a passenger uses such a ticket for a journey via the WLL then I can't see how they can possibly be accused of any wrongdoing whatsoever. Of course, anyone actually travelling from Watford Junction or north of there to Vauxhall would be much more likely to go via Euston and the Victoria Line, and should be ticketed accordingly. Peter Why would they obviously go via Euston? Amitted I did this a few years ago. Train started at Watford so you get the choice of a seat as opposed to standing crammed on a Euston train. Air conditioned versed an overheated 321. Avoid the crush on the Victoria line and the stifling heat. A no brainer really. Kevin |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
"Mizter T" wrote in message ... On Apr 20, 8:28 pm, "Zen83237" wrote: "Mizter T" wrote: [x-posted to uk.railway] [original thread on uk.transport.london] On Apr 19, 9:34 pm, "Zen83237" wrote: I know that a Watford Junc to London Terminals ticket is valid to Vauxhall but can I use it to Shepherds Bush. Kevin I have previously come across this notion that Vauxhall is a valid "London Terminal" for journeys from the West London Line, but I'm really not convinced by it. I readily admit that I have not delved into the mysterious depths of the Routing Guide, but this proposition just seems to be pretty counter-intuitive to me. ~~~~~~~~~~ Believe me, I used to do it every day. And just to confirm it a season ticket bought at Vauxhall to Watford was endorsed London terminals. It was at Watford that I used to get trouble convincing them. Kevin You won't like what I'm going to say - but just because a ticket is issued with assurances that it is valid doesn't actually mean it is legit under the rules. The ticket you had issued at Vauxhall was from London Terminals to Watford Jn - but just because Vauxhall is itself a London Terminal that doesn't mean that the ticket is valid from Vauxhall to Watford Jn. The ticket could just as well have been issued at say Fenchurch Street - after all, theoretically speaking all ticket offices are capable of issuing tickets from anywhere to anywhere else on the National Rail network. Certainly all longer distance tickets from Vauxhall are issued from "London Terminals". I think it used to be the case that all tickets from Vauxhall were issued from "London Terminals", but since zonal fares for all rail journeys wholly within London were introduced in 2007 I believe this may have changed, reason being that Vauxhall is in zone 2, so issuing a ticket as if it were also valid from/to Waterloo in zone 1 would mean it would be more expensive than it should be - so I think fares for journeys within London are now issued from Vauxhall. Anyway, that's a sideline issue - as I said tickets for longer distance journeys are all issued from "London Terminals". The fact that this is how things are done might well have led to ticket office staff at Vauxhall thinking that this means a London Terminals to Watford Jn ticket that spews out of their machine is inevitably valid from Vauxhall. By the sounds of other posts on this thread it would appear there are perhaps several systems - e.g. RJIS - that show it as a valid route. I contend that they are likely to be wrong, and that a Watford Jn to London Terminals ticket is actually only valid between Watford Jn and Euston. However, given the apparent state of distinct confusion on the matter, replete with NRES proclaiming that it is valid to use it to Vauxhall, along with ticket office staff at Vauxhall and seemingly also Bletchley saying likewise, then if a passenger uses such a ticket for a journey via the WLL then I can't see how they can possibly be accused of any wrongdoing whatsoever. Unless that is I'm very wrong and Watford Jn to Vauxhall via the WLL really is valid. I just can't see that making much sense though. Well what can I say. With the exception of occasionally the staff at Watford wanting to sell me a travel card the ticket I was sold was Watford Junc to London terminals if I bought it at Watford or London terminals to Watford if I bought it at Vauxhall. Not once, not twice, but every week for a year. Whether it was right or not I don't care. That is what they sold me and it worked at the gates at Vauxhall. Kevin |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On 20 Apr, 15:55, Mr Thant
wrote: On 20 Apr, 15:40, Alistair Bell wrote: it's clear that the shortest rail-only route to Vauxhall is on the direct train to Clapham Junction. ... I don't think you can do that - it's the shortest route to a London Terminal (ie the nearest one), with allowances for journeys through London Bridge etc. Otherwise - as you mention - it starts getting silly. Not that this is codified anywhere. If it's not documented anywhere, then my opinion is the opposite. In the absence of a documented restriction, the passenger can choose which station to travel to within a group by a permitted route, and doubling back is often specifically allowed: "GROUP STATIONS The stations listed at the bottom of this page are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group." (http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/R...ctions.htm#how %20to%20determine) |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On Apr 22, 1:49*am, "John @ home" wrote:
If it's not documented anywhere, then my opinion is the opposite. In the absence of a documented restriction, the passenger can choose which station to travel to within a group by a permitted route, and doubling back is often specifically allowed But that only applies when the station group is in the middle of a journey. "This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group." So it can never apply to tickets to/from London Terminals. The relevant verbiage is in the conditions of carriage: "You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in [...] trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services" I can't interpret that as allowing anything other than the nearest London Terminal. The fares manual says: "Fares for travel to and from London Terminals are shown in Section B and are valid at the following London Stations subject to the route of the rail journey being undertaken," Which is a fairly explicit declaration that only a subset of terminals is available, and dependent on where you start from. U |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:18:57 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant
wrote: "You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in [...] trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services" I can't interpret that as allowing anything other than the nearest London Terminal. You missed the bit about other routes permitted using the Routeing Guide! Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On Apr 22, 7:04*am, (Neil Williams)
wrote: You missed the bit about other routes permitted using the Routeing Guide! Well yes! This sub-thread was about whether you can use the "Shortest Route" rule to get yourself to an arbitrary London Terminal when the Routeing Guide doesn't have a route that gets you to it. U |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:35:20 +0100, Barry Salter wrote:
The key anomaly is that Vauxhall is a London Terminal but is NOT a London Group Routeing Point. It has London as a routeing point but also has Clapham Junction. According to map OV, which controls both flows, the only valid route from Watford Junction to London Group Routeing Point is directly into Euston -- but from Watford to Clapham Junction (and hence Vauxhall) map OV takes you down the West London Line. However, given that the single fare to Clapham Junction is higher than that to London, you're not actually allowed to use Clapham Junction as a Routeing Point. London would be the only Routeing Point for Vauxhall. However, Watford Junction is a routeing point, and London is a (Group) routeing point, so you don't have to do a fares check to determine valid routes, just check the map(s). As stated above, Vauxhall isn't part of the London Group routeing point. So you do have to do the fares check. |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
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Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:40:56 -0700 (PDT),
Alistair Bell wrote: On Apr 20, 9:05*am, "Paul Rigg" wrote: Vauxhall is a London Terminal, but only if there's a valid route. Which there isn't from Watford Junction - Euston is your only option, which also excludes Shepherd's Bush. The key anomaly is that Vauxhall is a London Terminal but is NOT a London Group Routeing Point. It has London as a routeing point but also has Clapham Junction. According to map OV, which controls both flows, the only valid route from Watford Junction to London Group Routeing Point is directly into Euston -- but from Watford to Clapham Junction (and hence Vauxhall) map OV takes you down the West London Line. However, given that the single fare to Clapham Junction is higher than that to London, you're not actually allowed to use Clapham Junction as a Routeing Point. London would be the only Routeing Point for Vauxhall. Don't get your comment about fares to Clapham Junction? http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...res=Show+fares Peak 4.00, Offpeak 2.00 (I have no idea what the Oyster fare would be via Euston. The above will be avoiding Euston where you cannot avoid touching out and back in - but not necessarily avoiding Z1 - changing at Harrow&W to the Bakerloo line will get you via Z1 without the touch at Euston) http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...res=Show+fares Peak 6.00, Offpeak 3.50 GNER website gives Single Watford Junction - London Euston 7.80 Watford Junction - Clapham Junction 7.10 Direct on SN (Some 6.00 offpeak) 10.90 WJ - Eus - Victoria - CJ 10.90 WJ - Eus - Vauxhall - CJ Incidentally, Harrow&W to CJ oyster gives cash fare as 3.20 at any time (Doesn't specify a route but presumably means not Z1?) GNER gives this fare on all non via Euston trains. 6.30 via EUS. GNER gives WJ-H&W as 3.20 making it 6.20/9.50 if you travel on a train that stops at H&W. Oyster gives WJ-H&W as 2.50/1.10 but its more than just needing a train that stops, you've got to touch out (and back in on a different card if you're intending to continue on oyster) Tim. p.s. GNER is NXEC now but I still go to www.gner.co.uk because I can never remember the 40 character long domain they use. -- God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light. http://www.woodall.me.uk/ |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On 23 Apr, 14:43, wrote:
Hmm. This doesn't seem to fit in with FCC's view. I have on more than one occasion been advised that I can go beyond King's Cross from Cambridge via SPILL (explicitly to City Thameslink where their lost property office is as well as to Moorgate via the widened lines before closure). You seem to have missed this specific exclusion: "In addition London Terminals fares are *not* valid if travelling beyond St. Pancras International from the north or beyond City Thameslink from the south." The ticket barriers at King's Cross always return my tickets. That can only be because they can be further used. GN tickets are valid on the tube from KX to Old Street/Moorgate, to substitute for the Northern City's short hours (though the perk is available 24/7). U |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
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Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On Apr 23, 5:18*pm, wrote: In article , (Mr Thant) wrote: On 23 Apr, 14:43, wrote: Hmm. This doesn't seem to fit in with FCC's view. I have on more than one occasion been advised that I can go beyond King's Cross from Cambridge via SPILL (explicitly to City Thameslink where their lost property office is as well as to Moorgate via the widened lines before closure). You seem to have missed this specific exclusion: "In addition London Terminals fares are *not* valid if travelling beyond St. Pancras International from the north or beyond City Thameslink from the south." I've read that repeatedly but had different information from FCC, more than once. That information is just wrong. The ticket barriers at King's Cross always return my tickets. That can only be because they can be further used. GN tickets are valid on the tube from KX to Old Street/Moorgate, to substitute for the Northern City's short hours (though the perk is available 24/7). My explicit questions covered City Thameslink (for the lost property office) and Moorgate (Thameslink) for when I took my pre-closure pictures.. This is a bit out of date now as unfortunately all such information is now all buried in the password-protected FRPP system, but take a look at this - it's section A of NFM98: http://www.atoc.org/retail/_download...8_Common_A.pdf Specifically take a look at page 6, under the heading "Travel to and from London Terminals" the following text appears italicised contained in brackets: ---quote--- In addition London Terminals fares are NOT valid if travelling beyond St. Pancras International from the north or beyond City Thameslink from the south. ---/quote--- Earlier editions of the NFM even had a helpful diagram of the Thameslink core route but they did away with this for whatever reason. At Farringdon there are explicit (LU produced) notices in poster frames which state that "London Terminals" tickets are not valid to/ from Farringdon (I've heard it said that the LU staff there get a lot of hassle about this issue). I think London Terminals tickets *used to* be valid to Moorgate, but this changed at the time of the blockade in 2005 - see this FCC Meet the Directors Q&A: http://snipurl.com/gjq5n ---quote--- Question Number:30 From: Mr Stephen R Hi, In response to previous answers regarding "London Terminals" season tickets. You have previously stated that this ticket was only introduced when the route was cut off. I have retained season tickets going back to 2000, which show that it was possible to get season tickets with London terminals. Also, when buying daily tickets you can get "london terminals" tickets. So why not season tickets ? Customers that pay 3k a year for a moorgate ticket should be allowed at the very least free Travel to London Bridge. Thameslink certainly thought so. When Moorgate line closes, how will Moorgate tickets be handled? ----- Answer: Season tickets issued to London Terminals have not been available to Moorgate on the Thameslink route since the blockade in 2005. The fact that you have been using them in the mean time does not mean they have been valid. London Terminals means King's Cross Thameslink or St Pancras from the north at the moment. From the Moorgate closure, for a period 2 years, the DfT have agreed to passengers travelling to Moorgate to continue to do so on National Rail tickets issued to Moorgate, at no additional charge. After that date, tickets valid on the Underground will be needed - either pre-pay or Travelcards. We have reached agreement with TfL and the DfT to be able to offer tickets to London Thameslink for travel to any station between St Pancras and London Bridge / Elephant and Castle. With the imminent closure of the Moorgate branch though, Moorgate will be excluded from these arrangements. ---/quote--- Tickets to London Terminals will nonetheless be accepted at Moorgate because of the concession that exists to allow Great Northern pax to travel between KXSP and Moorgate (to compensate for the fact that GN stoppers run to/from KX late evenings and weekends though the concession is valid at any time). I think that technically speaking pax from points north on the Thameslink route could have stayed on the right side of the rules if they'd have transferred alighted from their Thameslink train at KX Thameslink/ SPILL and transferred to LU to get to Moorgate. Or does the Routing Guide somehow require those heading to Old Street/ Moorgate to have come off the Great Northern route as opposed to the MML/Thameslink route? |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
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Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On 24 Apr, 02:23, wrote:
The restrictions you quoted only referred with any clarity to routings from the Thameslink (Midland) line. My questions were about the GN where what you cite seems not so unambiguous to me. As I said, it's what I've been told by different people on several different occasions for different journeys. I think the best way to think of the current regime is as FCC running a tube service between St Pancras and City Thameslink. Trains from Bedford et al terminate at SPILL, become a tube service, and restart again at City Thameslink, and only people with cross-London tickets are allowed to make the through journey. Taking a train from SPILL to City Thameslink on your Cambridge-London ticket is the same as trying to take the tube from KXSP to, say, Victoria. U |
Watford Junc to Shepherds Bush
On Apr 24, 9:59*am, Mr Thant wrote: On 24 Apr, 02:23, wrote: The restrictions you quoted only referred with any clarity to routings from the Thameslink (Midland) line. My questions were about the GN where what you cite seems not so unambiguous to me. As I said, it's what I've been told by different people on several different occasions for different journeys. I think the best way to think of the current regime is as FCC running a tube service between St Pancras and City Thameslink. Trains from Bedford et al terminate at SPILL, become a tube service, and restart again at City Thameslink, and only people with cross-London tickets are allowed to make the through journey. Taking a train from SPILL to City Thameslink on your Cambridge-London ticket is the same as trying to take the tube from KXSP to, say, Victoria. U Quite. If you've got a ticket to "London Thameslink" or a ticket marked "Route: Thameslink" then Thameslink can obviously be used, but under the rules "London Terminals" tickets do not get one across town. That's not to say that people using them to do so are evil wrongdoers - the amount of misunderstanding about this issue is immense, including amongst rail staff (and FCC bods really should know better!). It's not helped by some self-service ticket machines erroneously issuing tickets to "London Terminals" when a Thameslink destination was specified, and also the fact that from some stations the fares to London Terminals and central Thameslink stations are the same price. |
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