On May 4, 2:00*pm, asdf wrote:
On Sun, 03 May 2009 18:45:20 -0500,
wrote:

- Travellers from Heathrow to Wimbledon Park will have to touch at
Earls Court to avoid overrunning the Z23456 limit.

Where would one touch then? I don't recall seeing any validators on the
District platforms.

I'm assuming some validators will be put in. If it doesn't happen then
my speculation is incorrect (perhaps fortunately - it'd be a pain to
have to remember to touch on the platform).

As Mizter T pointed out, the limits are generous enough that people
aren't likely to be "against the clock" (and my other question about
whether shorter time limits will be applied wasn't meant to imply
that),

(If people really had to leap out of trains to touch validators at
places like Earls Court it would hardly be healthy or safe. Would
they leave their luggage on the train? It would be too bonkers even
for TfL under the rules of Oyster.)

And in any case, surely that journey would be priced assuming zone 1,
and therefore also timed assuming zone 1? It would be bizarre if
different assumptions about "zones passed through" was applied to
setting fares from setting timeouts.

But there's no point getting worked up about speculation. It's more
worth getting worked up about the fact that a major change seems to be
taking place, but no meaningful information is available about what it
is.

On May 4, 2:47*pm, MIG wrote:
On May 4, 2:00*pm, asdf wrote:

On Sun, 03 May 2009 18:45:20 -0500,
wrote:

- Travellers from Heathrow to Wimbledon Park will have to touch at
Earls Court to avoid overrunning the Z23456 limit.

Where would one touch then? I don't recall seeing any validators on the
District platforms.

I'm assuming some validators will be put in. If it doesn't happen then
my speculation is incorrect (perhaps fortunately - it'd be a pain to
have to remember to touch on the platform).

As Mizter T pointed out, the limits are generous enough that people
aren't likely to be "against the clock" (and my other question about
whether shorter time limits will be applied wasn't meant to imply
that),

(If people really had to leap out of trains to touch validators at
places like Earls Court it would hardly be healthy or safe. *Would
they leave their luggage on the train? *It would be too bonkers even
for TfL under the rules of Oyster.)

And in any case, surely that journey would be priced assuming zone 1,
and therefore also timed assuming zone 1? *It would be bizarre if
different assumptions about "zones passed through" was applied to
setting fares from setting timeouts.

Sorry, it never occurred to me that Earls Court was boundary zone 2,
but it seems that it is.


But there's no point getting worked up about speculation. *It's more
worth getting worked up about the fact that a major change seems to be
taking place, but no meaningful information is available about what it
is.

MIG wrote:

(If people really had to leap out of trains to touch validators at
places like Earls Court it would hardly be healthy or safe. Would
they leave their luggage on the train? It would be too bonkers even
for TfL under the rules of Oyster.)

It happens already with some National Rail services - Stratford to Liverpool
Street is covered by PAYG but the barrier readers at stations further up the
line only read for travelcard validity so anyone trying to get an extension
has to do this leaping. It gets worse if the trains use the fast platforms
at Stratford.

On Mon, 4 May 2009 06:47:33 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:

(If people really had to leap out of trains to touch validators at
places like Earls Court it would hardly be healthy or safe. Would
they leave their luggage on the train? It would be too bonkers even
for TfL under the rules of Oyster.)

You wouldn't have to leap off the train - the intermediate validation
would only need to be done at a station where you were changing trains
anyway.

Essentially, I'm guessing (from the list of stations provided) that,
for example, the Z23456 time limit will be enough to travel Z6 - Z2,
but not (necessarily, perhaps in the event of delays) enough to travel
Z6 - Z2 - Z6. So at the interchange station in Z2 (where you "turn
back" and start heading outwards again), there would be a validator to
touch which would extend your time.

On May 4, 3:14*pm, asdf wrote:
On Mon, 4 May 2009 06:47:33 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:
(If people really had to leap out of trains to touch validators at
places like Earls Court it would hardly be healthy or safe. *Would
they leave their luggage on the train? *It would be too bonkers even
for TfL under the rules of Oyster.)

You wouldn't have to leap off the train - the intermediate validation
would only need to be done at a station where you were changing trains
anyway.

Essentially, I'm guessing (from the list of stations provided) that,
for example, the Z23456 time limit will be enough to travel Z6 - Z2,
but not (necessarily, perhaps in the event of delays) enough to travel
Z6 - Z2 - Z6. So at the interchange station in Z2 (where you "turn
back" and start heading outwards again), there would be a validator to
touch which would extend your time.

My mind was leaping to an imaginary situation where in future you
might need to do this on a straight through journey from, say, 6 to
6. But I am still confused as to whether the time limits will be
applied to the assumed pair of start and end points or to a different
measure from the way that fares are assigned.

If the end points works for fares, then why couldn't every point to
point journey for which a fare is defined also have a time limit
defined, such that Heathrow to Wimbledon Park wouldn't need to have
just a standard 2 - 6 timeout?

Speculation overload.

- Travellers from Upminster Bridge to Epping will have to touch at
West Ham or Mile End for a time extension to avoid overrunning the
Z(2)3456 limit

As an Oyster PAYG holder who lives outside the Network Card area let alone
Z1-6, could you please advise me what the time limits currently are. Are
they available on Tfls website?


--
Regards John

MIG wrote
[...]
If the end points works for fares, then why couldn't every point to
point journey for which a fare is defined also have a time limit
defined, such that Heathrow to Wimbledon Park wouldn't need to have
just a standard 2 - 6 timeout?

Speculation overload.

Indeed, exactly that may eventually be in place BUT the day of the week
is involved too.

quoting from
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-zones1-6.pdf

The time limit varies between 70 minutes for the shortest journeys on
Monday to
Friday and four hours for some longer journeys on Sunday.
==

Paul Corfield has suggested that the extra routes added for full PAYG
on NR will require the fare charged to take into account intermediate
validators touched, so doing the same for timeout purposes seems
likely.

I think enhancing the Oyster journey history to include all touches
would be needed too.

--
Mike D

John wrote:
- Travellers from Upminster Bridge to Epping will have to touch at
West Ham or Mile End for a time extension to avoid overrunning the
Z(2)3456 limit

As an Oyster PAYG holder who lives outside the Network Card area let
alone Z1-6, could you please advise me what the time limits currently
are. Are they available on Tfls website?

Time limits are given on page 3 of the "Fares and Tickets" leaflet,
available for download from
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx. Oddly,
however, the main download and Large Print version differ in their
definitions!

The Large Print version states: "Your Tube, DLR, London Overground and
National Rail pay as you go journey must be completed within two and a
half hours of you having touched in at the start of your journey. If the
time between touching in and touching out exceeds two and a half hours
you will be charged more than the Oyster single fare for your journey.
If this happens, you will need to call the Oyster helpline for assistance."

The "normal" version, however, states: "Your Tube, DLR, London
Overground and National Rail pay as you go journey must be completed
within a time limit from when you touched in at the start of your
journey. The time limit varies between 70 minutes for the shortest
journeys on Monday to Friday and four hours for some longer journeys on
Sunday. If the time between touching in and touching out at the end of
your journey is more than the time limit you will be charged more than
the Oyster single fare for your journey. If this happens, you will need
to call the Oyster helpline for assistance."

At present, it's the former version that applies, though it would be
hoped that TfL would provide more notice of the proposal to introduce a
variable time limit than just including it in the Fares and Tickets
leaflet (after all, how many people take the time to read it?).

Cheers,

Barry

On May 5, 4:20*pm, Barry Salter wrote:
John wrote:
- Travellers from Upminster Bridge to Epping will have to touch at
West Ham or Mile End for a time extension to avoid overrunning the
Z(2)3456 limit

As an Oyster PAYG holder who lives outside the Network Card area let
alone Z1-6, could you please advise me what the time limits currently
are. Are they available on Tfls website?

Time limits are given on page 3 of the "Fares and Tickets" leaflet,
available for download from
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx. Oddly,
however, the main download and Large Print version differ in their
definitions!

The Large Print version states: "Your Tube, DLR, London Overground and
National Rail pay as you go journey must be completed within two and a
half hours of you having touched in at the start of your journey. If the
time between touching in and touching out exceeds two and a half hours
you will be charged more than the Oyster single fare for your journey.
If this happens, you will need to call the Oyster helpline for assistance.."

The "normal" version, however, states: "Your Tube, DLR, London
Overground and National Rail pay as you go journey must be completed
within a time limit from when you touched in at the start of your
journey. The time limit varies between 70 minutes for the shortest
journeys on Monday to Friday and four hours for some longer journeys on
Sunday. If the time between touching in and touching out at the end of
your journey is more than the time limit you will be charged more than
the Oyster single fare for your journey. If this happens, you will need
to call the Oyster helpline for assistance."

At present, it's the former version that applies, though it would be
hoped that TfL would provide more notice of the proposal to introduce a
variable time limit than just including it in the Fares and Tickets
leaflet (after all, how many people take the time to read it?).

I suppose the latter version applies as well, because all journeys are
between 70 and 240 minutes if they are set at 150 minutes.

Maybe if it's in the leaflet for long enough before any variations are
implemented, they'll be able to claim that there has been no change to
the rules.

On May 3, 2:29*pm, asdf wrote:
On Fri, 1 May 2009 07:36:10 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T wrote:
One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

Yes, I think that would have to be the case - e.g. so someone exiting
at Hanger Lane for an OSI to Park Royal would get the time limit
adjusted (presumably adding extra time) for the *whole* journey, not
just the first leg. I can't see why else the list would consist mostly
of OSI stations.

The list also suggests that this will apply to intermediate
validators, as it includes stations that have no apparent significance
other than being interchanges at the tip of a 'V' (i.e. where you are
heading out of the zones and then can turn back so you are heading
inwards, or vice versa). This suggests that, for example:

- Travellers from Northwood to Heathrow will have to touch
inetrmediate validators (on the platform/footbridge) at Rayners Lane
and Acton Town, to extend their time limit and so avoid exceeding the
maximum time for a Z3456 journey

- Travellers from Upminster Bridge to Epping will have to touch at
West Ham or Mile End for a time extension to avoid overrunning the
Z(2)3456 limit

- Travellers from Heathrow to Wimbledon Park will have to touch at
Earls Court to avoid overrunning the Z23456 limit.

Similarly for Gospel Oak to Barons Court (Z23, touching at
Gunnersbury) and Upper Holloway to Bromley-By-Bow (Z234, touching at
Barking).

Surely they are not expecting passengers to validate oysters in the
middle of the journy?!!!! It's complicated enough at interchange
stations about whether you need to touch in or out, making it
compulsory to validate the oyster in the middle of a journey where
there are no barriers would be even more confusing. Surely if you
touch in at Wimbledon and out at Heathrow the system would be
configured so that a greater journey time was allowed to take account
of the doubling back. Why should it be up to the passenger to take
responsiblity for it when it could be automated. I seriously doubt
that there would be a mandatory oyster validation requirement for
passengers mid-journey. That's non-sensical.