On May 5, 8:49*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Fri, 1 May 2009 07:36:10 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:

On May 1, 11:38*am, Barry Salter wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

I'm sure all will become clear over time.

I think I can provide a partial answer although the list of stations is
somewhat perplexing.

There are two new concepts being introduced for Oyster later this year -
the ability to select "en route" a cheaper fare by validating at an
intermediate LUL station. Rayners Lane is the classic example. We have
discussed this concept before on utl.

Indeed we have. You only mention "intermediate LUL station[s]", but
I'd think that the same principle would (or at least could) apply on
NR. (Though even pondering on how some journeys south of the river
will pan out is enough to give one a headache!)

And I guess this 'en route' validation principle is the same that will
solve the "Shepherd's Bush question" - no, not the question of which
actual bush is the eponymous shepherd's [1], instead that of ensuring
passengers who change from the Central line onto London Overground for
the WLL/NLL don't pay zone 1 fares (the problem case that's been
raised here in the past is that of Greenford - Shepherd's Bush -
Willesden Jn - Camden Road, though other similar journeys are also
affected), as passing through the two sets of gates at Shepherd's Bush
(LU and LO/WLL stations) would presumably provide the required 'en
route' validation.


The other - which seems to bear more relationship to this list - is
"Oyster Extension Permits". These will be added to Oyster cards when
people using PAYG exit the LUL system on the presumption that they will
continue by NR. A possible example journey would be Bond Street to
Orpington changing at London Bridge - on exit at LOB the permit would be
set by the LUL gate and would be read and accepted by the validator or
gate for the NR side of the station. Although the gates would act as a
OSI to avoid generating a second charge the permit, IIRC, is the
mechanism that will trigger the much longer journey time limit as one
accepted by the NR gate it is quite likely that passengers may be
waiting for a relatively infrequent train. * This is why there is to be
a much expanded and more flexible maximum journey time concept which
varies by zone but also by time of day and day of week - if you think
about it is entirely logical.

It is indeed.


Don't ask me to advise on how long the interchange timings will be
because I honestly do not know.

A number of LU stations in West London are test beds for the new
software and staff are making journeys to test whether the new longer
times work properly.

So I can be a smug git and say "I thought as much", as I made the
suggestion this was likely a trial of the systems elsewhere on this
thread! ;-)


An additional PAYG OSI is to be established between Kilburn and
Brondesbury from May 17th.

Good, more OSIs are to be encouraged! I'm not sure how much passengers
know about them though - the only place they are hinted at is on the
Tube map, and that's only some of them. I wonder if this is a
precursor of Kilburn and Brondesbury being shown on the Tube map as
being a 'distant interchange' (for want of a better term - perhaps
'walkable interchange'? - though that'd exclude wheelchair users).


Shepherds Bush Central also becomes part of "London BR" (or whatever
it's called these days) to allow valid cross London interchange between
LUL and NR services on through tickets - just as Tottenham Hale, Ealing
Broadway and Stratford are.

"London BR" or "London Brit Rail" became "London Terminals" when BR
bit the dust.

However, that's *not* the term you're looking for! "London Terminals"
are (more or less) just that - the terminal stations. What you're
speaking of is the far wider list of stations that are eligible start
and end points for cross-London transfer by Tube/DLR, this applies to
NR tickets which are marked with a Maltese cross or dagger symbol (or
whatever it is!) in the "Route" field.

Said list of stations can be seen on this NRE webpage - click on the
"show Station List" link to, er, see it!
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/london/

Including the Shepherd's Bushes on this list is progress - I recall a
discussion somewhere (here, I think) where someone was complaining
about the absurdity of being allowed to use Kensington Olympia as a
start/end point for cross-London transfer, but not being allowed to
use Shepherd's Bush for this purpose. So hooray for a this small
common sense victory!


The £3 charge for all new Oyster cards (regardless of product) also
comes in on 17th May - there are certainly posters on the network
advising of this change.

Yes, I saw an on-train poster on the Vic line about this today.

So the 17th May is the date when *all* the changes to the Oyster PAYG
system 'go live' then?

(Well, all the changes apart from all the TOCs finally joining in -
I've seen suggestions that might not happen until next year! Why am I
not surprised!)


Scarily it is nearly 7 years since the first Oyster cards came in to
use!

I distinctly remember an acquaintance proudly brandishing a flashy new
Oyster card back in the early days when they were only being issued to
holders of annual Travelcards. I wonder how many of those early
adopters have ditched seasons altogether in favour of PAYG now... a
fair few I reckon.


Hope the above helps a little bit.

It does, thanks. This thread was suffering somewhat from a dose of
speculation overload!


-----
[1] Apologies for the potential misuse of "eponymous", I'm not quite
sure if I've used the term legitimately here but I decided to take a
chance!

On Tue, 5 May 2009 16:17:40 -0700 (PDT), D DB 90001 wrote:

Surely they are not expecting passengers to validate oysters in the
middle of the journy?!!!! It's complicated enough at interchange
stations about whether you need to touch in or out, making it
compulsory to validate the oyster in the middle of a journey where
there are no barriers would be even more confusing. Surely if you
touch in at Wimbledon and out at Heathrow the system would be
configured so that a greater journey time was allowed to take account
of the doubling back. Why should it be up to the passenger to take
responsiblity for it when it could be automated. I seriously doubt
that there would be a mandatory oyster validation requirement for
passengers mid-journey. That's non-sensical.

From Paul C's informative post, it appears that the reason for the
software upgrade at stations like Rayners Lane is to allow passengers
to get a cheaper fare by taking a longer route avoiding Zone 1, rather
than anything to do with variable time limits.

This would still involve validation mid-journey, of course.

This still leaves a few unexplained stations on the list (Mile End,
Earl's Court, Bond Street, etc), but perhaps a few extra ones were
just included for testing purposes.

On 7 May, 07:49, asdf wrote:
On Tue, 5 May 2009 16:17:40 -0700 (PDT), D DB 90001 wrote:
Surely they are not expecting passengers to validate oysters in the
middle of the journy?!!!! It's complicated enough at interchange
stations about whether you need to touch in or out, making it
compulsory to validate the oyster in the middle of a journey where
there are no barriers would be even more confusing. Surely if you
touch in at Wimbledon and out at Heathrow the system would be
configured so that a greater journey time was allowed to take account
of the doubling back. Why should it be up to the passenger to take
responsiblity for it when it could be automated. I seriously doubt
that there would be a mandatory oyster validation requirement for
passengers mid-journey. That's non-sensical.

From Paul C's informative post, it appears that the reason for the
software upgrade at stations like Rayners Lane is to allow passengers
to get a cheaper fare by taking a longer route avoiding Zone 1, rather
than anything to do with variable time limits.

This would still involve validation mid-journey, of course.

This still leaves a few unexplained stations on the list (Mile End,
Earl's Court, Bond Street, etc), but perhaps a few extra ones were
just included for testing purposes.

This raises the old Bank mystery in my mind again ... I wonder if
correspondingly one will be expected to touch during journeys via zone
1 that are normally priced as not via zone 1 (or else get penalty
fared) ... or whether all such journeys will be redefined as via zone
1 by default unless you touch elsewhere on the way?

I am thinking of DLR-related journeys that could be via Bank or
Stratford, but there must be other examples.

Still speculation overload.

On May 7, 11:53*am, MIG wrote:
On 7 May, 07:49, asdf wrote:



On Tue, 5 May 2009 16:17:40 -0700 (PDT), D DB 90001 wrote:
Surely they are not expecting passengers to validate oysters in the
middle of the journy?!!!! It's complicated enough at interchange
stations about whether you need to touch in or out, making it
compulsory to validate the oyster in the middle of a journey where
there are no barriers would be even more confusing. Surely if you
touch in at Wimbledon and out at Heathrow the system would be
configured so that a greater journey time was allowed to take account
of the doubling back. Why should it be up to the passenger to take
responsiblity for it when it could be automated. I seriously doubt
that there would be a mandatory oyster validation requirement for
passengers mid-journey. That's non-sensical.

From Paul C's informative post, it appears that the reason for the
software upgrade at stations like Rayners Lane is to allow passengers
to get a cheaper fare by taking a longer route avoiding Zone 1, rather
than anything to do with variable time limits.

This would still involve validation mid-journey, of course.

This still leaves a few unexplained stations on the list (Mile End,
Earl's Court, Bond Street, etc), but perhaps a few extra ones were
just included for testing purposes.

This raises the old Bank mystery in my mind again ... I wonder if
correspondingly one will be expected to touch during journeys via zone
1 that are normally priced as not via zone 1 (or else get penalty
fared) *... or whether all such journeys will be redefined as via zone
1 by default unless you touch elsewhere on the way?

Presumeably the only way to make passengers validate their oyster mid-
journey would be to increase the standard fare to a via Z1 level fare
and keep it at the higher rate unless the oyster card is validated at
a non-Z1 station which proves that they did not travel via zone 1. If
it was the other way round, people would simply travel via zone 1 and
not bother validating their oyster to confirm the route.

I am thinking of DLR-related journeys that could be via Bank or
Stratford, but there must be other examples.

Still speculation overload.

Presumeably the validation en-route would only take place at a station
where interchange *has to* take place, I can't imagine it being a very
popular idea for people to pile off a NLL service at Gospel Oak, just
to validate their oyster, and then rush back to the train only to find
that it's left without them. Incidently where would you validate your
oyster on that kind of route to prove that you weren't just travelling
from stratford to Willesden Junction via Z1?

On May 7, 7:49*am, asdf wrote:
On Tue, 5 May 2009 16:17:40 -0700 (PDT), D DB 90001 wrote:
Surely they are not expecting passengers to validate oysters in the
middle of the journy?!!!! It's complicated enough at interchange
stations about whether you need to touch in or out, making it
compulsory to validate the oyster in the middle of a journey where
there are no barriers would be even more confusing. Surely if you
touch in at Wimbledon and out at Heathrow the system would be
configured so that a greater journey time was allowed to take account
of the doubling back. Why should it be up to the passenger to take
responsiblity for it when it could be automated. I seriously doubt
that there would be a mandatory oyster validation requirement for
passengers mid-journey. That's non-sensical.

From Paul C's informative post, it appears that the reason for the
software upgrade at stations like Rayners Lane is to allow passengers
to get a cheaper fare by taking a longer route avoiding Zone 1, rather
than anything to do with variable time limits.

This would still involve validation mid-journey, of course.

This still leaves a few unexplained stations on the list (Mile End,
Earl's Court, Bond Street, etc), but perhaps a few extra ones were
just included for testing purposes.

From what I understand of the concept the intermediate validators
would only be located on "natural" interchange routes at logical
interchanges where people can legitimately change to avoid entering
Zone 1 or by validating they would indicate they have taken a route
that would be priced to avoid Zone 1. I have seen nothing that
indicates enforced validation by making people get off trains or
anything like that. Providing the facility gives people the option to
select a lower fare when the "normal" price is set via Zone 1 - the
PAYG system being is modified to hold more than one fare for origin
and destination pairs and the intermediate validation record is the
means of triggering the lower fare. I have read nothing that
indicates that Zone 1 pricing will become a default position thus
requiring extra validation nor have I read anything about mid point
validation except where people switch from LUL to NR (see below).

Earls Court is a zonal boundary point so is a valid turnback point for
some journeys in West London that might be priced via Notting Hill
Gate and yet people may opt to go via Olympia or Hammersmith. An
example might be Fulham Broadway to Shepherds Bush Central. The
highest frequency route would be via NHG but is in Zone 1. Clearly
there are lower frequency routes via West Brompton or even via Earls
Ct and Olympia or via Hammersmith. Being able to record you are going
via Zone 2 only is beneficial. Please note these are my own ramblings
and not an official example.

Mile End is a turn back point in Zone 2 between Central and District
lines so has some merit in being on the list. Bond Street I can't
fathom in terms of anything clever about pricing or journey time
limits.

The variable time limit is all to do with Oyster Extension Permits
being recorded on Oyster cards upon exit from the LUL system where
people can change on to NR trains. The acceptance of the permit at the
NR side of the interchange would mean one through journey was being
charged as well as permitting a much longer total journey time to
reflect longer journey times and potentially longer waits due to lower
frequency NR services.

I suspect none of the above will stop the rampant speculative
capabilities of utl but one can try!

--
Paul C
via Google

On 7 May, 13:05, D DB 90001 wrote:
On May 7, 11:53*am, MIG wrote:





On 7 May, 07:49, asdf wrote:

On Tue, 5 May 2009 16:17:40 -0700 (PDT), D DB 90001 wrote:
Surely they are not expecting passengers to validate oysters in the
middle of the journy?!!!! It's complicated enough at interchange
stations about whether you need to touch in or out, making it
compulsory to validate the oyster in the middle of a journey where
there are no barriers would be even more confusing. Surely if you
touch in at Wimbledon and out at Heathrow the system would be
configured so that a greater journey time was allowed to take account
of the doubling back. Why should it be up to the passenger to take
responsiblity for it when it could be automated. I seriously doubt
that there would be a mandatory oyster validation requirement for
passengers mid-journey. That's non-sensical.

From Paul C's informative post, it appears that the reason for the
software upgrade at stations like Rayners Lane is to allow passengers
to get a cheaper fare by taking a longer route avoiding Zone 1, rather
than anything to do with variable time limits.

This would still involve validation mid-journey, of course.

This still leaves a few unexplained stations on the list (Mile End,
Earl's Court, Bond Street, etc), but perhaps a few extra ones were
just included for testing purposes.

This raises the old Bank mystery in my mind again ... I wonder if
correspondingly one will be expected to touch during journeys via zone
1 that are normally priced as not via zone 1 (or else get penalty
fared) *... or whether all such journeys will be redefined as via zone
1 by default unless you touch elsewhere on the way?

Presumeably the only way to make passengers validate their oyster mid-
journey would be to increase the standard fare to a via Z1 level fare
and keep it at the higher rate unless the oyster card is validated at
a non-Z1 station which proves that they did not travel via zone 1. If
it was the other way round, people would simply travel via zone 1 and
not bother validating their oyster to confirm the route.

I am thinking of DLR-related journeys that could be via Bank or
Stratford, but there must be other examples.

Still speculation overload.

Presumeably the validation en-route would only take place at a station
where interchange *has to* take place, I can't imagine it being a very
popular idea for people to pile off a NLL service at Gospel Oak, just
to validate their oyster, and then rush back to the train only to find
that it's left without them. Incidently where would you validate your
oyster on that kind of route to prove that you weren't just travelling
from stratford to Willesden Junction via Z1?- Hide quoted text -

Lewisham to Bethnal Green is currently priced not via zone 1, assuming
changing at Stratford (or quite a few possibilities involving
interchanges, eg Canary Wharf and West Ham).

An hypothesis, not tested by me, is that if you currently did touch at
Bank, you'd get charged the via zone 1 fare.

This is a clear example of two reasonable options, both of which
involve an interchange with a validator available.

(If the untested hypothesis is correct, then there wouldn't need to be
a different system in place to implement the change, just a change to
the default price.)

For the NLL example, it would indeed be a problem. Maybe they'd have
to leave it as not via zone 1 by default.

"Barry Salter" wrote in message
...
Hi folks,

As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to
National Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey
time of 2.5 hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum
will be applied when you touch out, based on the zones travelled
through.

The latest list of stations affected by this has now appeared, and
reads as follows:

Acton Town Hammersmith (D&P) Southall (NR)
Amersham Hanger Lane Sudbury & Harrow Rd
(NR)
Bank / Monument Hayes & Harlington (NR) Sudbury Hill
Barking Kenton Sudbury Hill Harrow
(NR)
Bond Street Liverpool St (LU & NR) Upminster
Camden Road (LO) Mile End Victoria
Camden Town Northwick Park West Drayton (NR)
Canary Wharf (LU & DLR) Paddington (LU & NR) West Ham
Canning Town Park Royal West Hampstead (LU &
NR)
Earl's Court Poplar (DLR) Westminster
Euston (LU & NR) Rayners Lane White City
Greenford Royal Victoria (DLR) Wimbledon
Gunnersbury Shepherd's Bush (Cen) Wood Lane
Hammersmith (C&H) Shepherd's Bush (NR) Woolwich Arsenal (DLR)

I have made a FOI request to TfL for more details on what these variable
journey times are - below is the answer.

*****
For most journeys made with Oyster pay as you go, a standard maximum
time limit of 150 minutes currently applies at all times.

However, as part of plans to extend Oyster pay as you go to the
remainder of National Rail stations in London, we have agreed with the
National Rail train companies that we will have arrangement in which
Maximum Journey Times (MJTs) vary;

(a) by day/time of travel and
(b) according the number of zone boundaries crossed in the journey.

The new variable Maximum Journey Times require an update to the Oyster
software and this new software is now being rolled out progressively for
test purposes. At the time of this reply variable Maximum Journey Times
apply for journeys made to any of approximately 50 test stations
[presumably the stations Barry has listed above]. Depending on the
success of future test stages we plan to have the variable Maximum
Journey Times active system-wide by September. The table below
summarises how the variable Maximum Journey Times work (times in
minutes).

Monday - Friday before 1900 hrs
Travel within one zone - 70 mins
Each additional zone (e.g. a journey from Zone 6 to Zone 6 via Zone 1,
would be 10 additional zones) - 10 mins

Monday to Friday after 1900 and Saturday
Travel within one zone - 77 mins
Each additional zone - 11 mins

Sunday
Travel within one zone - 84 mins
Each additional zone - 12 mins
*****

Peter Smyth

On May 9, 10:32*am, "Peter Smyth" wrote:

"Barry Salter" wrote:

Hi folks,

As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to
National Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey
time of 2.5 hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum
will be applied when you touch out, based on the zones travelled
through.

The latest list of stations affected by this has now appeared, and
reads as follows:

Acton Town * * * * * * *Hammersmith (D&P) * * * Southall (NR)
Amersham * * * * * * * *Hanger Lane * * * * * * Sudbury & Harrow Rd
(NR)
Bank / Monument * * * * Hayes & Harlington (NR) Sudbury Hill
Barking * * * * * * * * Kenton * * * * * * * * *Sudbury Hill Harrow
(NR)
Bond Street * * * * * * Liverpool St (LU & NR) *Upminster
Camden Road (LO) * * * *Mile End * * * * * * * *Victoria
Camden Town * * * * * * Northwick Park * * * * *West Drayton (NR)
Canary Wharf (LU & DLR) Paddington (LU & NR) * *West Ham
Canning Town * * * * * *Park Royal * * * * * * *West Hampstead (LU &
NR)
Earl's Court * * * * * *Poplar (DLR) * * * * * *Westminster
Euston (LU & NR) * * * *Rayners Lane * * * * * *White City
Greenford * * * * * * * Royal Victoria (DLR) * *Wimbledon
Gunnersbury * * * * * * Shepherd's Bush (Cen) * Wood Lane
Hammersmith (C&H) * * * Shepherd's Bush (NR) * *Woolwich Arsenal (DLR)

I have made a FOI request to TfL for more details on what these variable
journey times are - below is the answer.

*****
For most journeys made with Oyster pay as you go, a standard maximum
time limit of 150 minutes currently applies at all times.

However, as part of plans to extend Oyster pay as you go to the
remainder of National Rail stations in London, we have agreed with the
National Rail train companies that we will have arrangement in which
Maximum Journey Times (MJTs) vary;

(a) by day/time of travel and
(b) according the number of zone boundaries crossed in the journey.

The new variable Maximum Journey Times require an update to the Oyster
software and this new software is now being rolled out progressively for
test purposes. At the time of this reply variable Maximum Journey Times
apply for journeys made to any of approximately 50 test stations
[presumably the stations Barry has listed above]. Depending on the
success of future test stages we plan to have the variable Maximum
Journey Times active system-wide by September. The table below
summarises how the variable Maximum Journey Times work (times in
minutes).

Monday - Friday before 1900 hrs
Travel within one zone - 70 mins
Each additional zone (e.g. a journey from Zone 6 to Zone 6 via Zone 1,
would be 10 additional zones) - 10 mins

Monday to Friday after 1900 and Saturday
Travel within one zone - 77 mins
Each additional zone - 11 mins

Sunday
Travel within one zone - 84 mins
Each additional zone - 12 mins
*****

Peter Smyth


Thanks Peter for making that request and sharing the outcome with us,
that's very helpful. It all seems very sensible and reasonable.