How about spending some of the money that is currently being extorted
from car drivers on something completely radical like building new
underground roads similar to the ones in Bruges Belgium.

We are constantly being stuffed for more any more cash to subsidize
harebrained council schemes none of which improve our lives at all.

Surely if engineers 120 years ago can build the London underground
railway system, we in the 21st century can build
an underground road system.

For those that have not visited Bruges, let me describe a car journey
to that city.

We arrived on the Sea Cat (The Vomit Comet) at Ostend and drive 13
miles to Bruges where you are directed down a tunnel some miles out
of the city. After driving some distance underground, you are directed
into giant car parks and take the lift back to daylight, where you
arrive in the middle of a huge town square with Bars and restaurants
around the edge, and the latest shops within a short walk.
No Stress at all.

Compare this with a trip to London where parking meters earn more that
a worker's minimum hourly wage and everything is designed to give the
maximum stress and the minimum value.

We need some new thinking on this. Public transport is not the answer,
and not everyone can cycle to work.

Jeff

(Jeff Lewis UK) wrote the following in:
om

How about spending some of the money that is currently being
extorted from car drivers on something completely radical like
building new underground roads similar to the ones in Bruges
Belgium.

I think something altogether less radical would be much more helpful.
How about Newham council spending money on resurfacing **** roads (like
the road to my house, which seems to be about one step above a dirt
track) and fixing potholes, rather than using it to create completely
new road hazards (speed bumps) that damage cars and make roads much
more difficult to cycle along.

--
message by Robin May, consumer of liquids
Hello. I'm one of those "roaring fascists of the left wing".

Hacker is to computer as boy racer is to Ford Escort.

"Robin May" wrote in message
...

I think something altogether less radical would be much more helpful.
How about Newham council spending money on resurfacing **** roads (like
the road to my house, which seems to be about one step above a dirt
track) and fixing potholes, rather than using it to create completely
new road hazards (speed bumps) that damage cars and make roads much
more difficult to cycle along.


Exactly - and if we must have so many 'traffic-calming' installations in
this country, how about making them from good old kerbstones and asphalt,
instead of bloody expensive brick paviours with fancy raised garden beds.

Where I live there are a number of locations where a busy two-lane main road
has been narrowed to a single lane with chicanes and obstacles (either on
both sides or by directing the traffic from one direction into the opposite
traffic flow). These so-called calming measures may work effectively when
there is a heavy traffic flow during the day but at other times they are
positively inviting head-on collisions, as boy racers speed through the
constriction at 40mph+ during the evenings and at weekends, forcing other
motorists, cyclists and pedestrians to dive for cover.

Have any of these traffic planners ever been out to observe the potential
carnage that they are inflicting upon road users? Even the construction
companies installing them reckon that they are lethal and more dangerous
than installing simple, cheap speed humps.

How about spending some of the money that is currently being extorted
from car drivers on something completely radical like building new
underground roads similar to the ones in Bruges Belgium.

We are constantly being stuffed for more any more cash to subsidize
harebrained council schemes none of which improve our lives at all.

Surely if engineers 120 years ago can build the London underground
railway system, we in the 21st century can build
an underground road system.

For those that have not visited Bruges, let me describe a car journey
to that city.

We arrived on the Sea Cat (The Vomit Comet) at Ostend and drive 13
miles to Bruges where you are directed down a tunnel some miles out
of the city. After driving some distance underground, you are directed
into giant car parks and take the lift back to daylight, where you
arrive in the middle of a huge town square with Bars and restaurants
around the edge, and the latest shops within a short walk.
No Stress at all.

Compare this with a trip to London where parking meters earn more that
a worker's minimum hourly wage and everything is designed to give the
maximum stress and the minimum value.

We need some new thinking on this. Public transport is not the answer,
and not everyone can cycle to work.

Jeff

Hello, Jeff.

As a reasonably frequent visitor to Brugge, I think your recollection is a
little incorrect. The car park you describe is in the T'zand square. It is a
fairly normal underground car park as seen elsewhere in the world including
London. The car park is very conveniently located, being only a five minute
walk from the city centre, but is not anything special.

The only difference is that the entrance and exit into the car park is from
the sides of a fairly short 250 metre road tunnel which passes under the
T'zand square. The entrances and exits to the car park have very sharp
curves indeed!

Buster

Buster wrote:

How about spending some of the money that is currently being extorted
from car drivers on something completely radical like building new
underground roads similar to the ones in Bruges Belgium.

Or investing more in a good reliable PT system.

For those that have not visited Bruges, let me describe a car journey
to that city.

We arrived on the Sea Cat (The Vomit Comet) at Ostend and drive 13
miles to Bruges where you are directed down a tunnel some miles out
of the city. After driving some distance underground, you are directed
into giant car parks and take the lift back to daylight, where you
arrive in the middle of a huge town square with Bars and restaurants
around the edge, and the latest shops within a short walk.
No Stress at all.

None? You jest.
Now had you jumped on Eurostar and simply crossed platforms in Brussels it is
likely you would have ha a much more pleasant journey. Just think, not having
to queue at the ferry port or having to drive. You even admit the crossing is
less than enjoyable.
Instead, you could relax with a book and a meal, or enjoy a snooze.

We need some new thinking on this. Public transport is not the answer,

It goes towards providing it. More roads don't.

and not everyone can cycle to work.

Many more can. They could try walking too.
Did you note the number of cycles in Bruges, and how they could use one-way
streets in the opposite direction to motor vehicles?
And did you see all the bike racks - thousands outside the railway station
where buses and trains meet each other.
And did you see the number of buses and the cheap all-town daily tickets or the
low cost all Belgium train passes?

As a reasonably frequent visitor to Brugge, I think your recollection is a
little incorrect. The car park you describe is in the T'zand square. It is a
fairly normal underground car park as seen elsewhere in the world including
London. The car park is very conveniently located, being only a five minute
walk from the city centre, but is not anything special.

Quite.

John B

"JohnB" wrote in message ...


Buster wrote:

How about spending some of the money that is currently being extorted
from car drivers on something completely radical like building new
underground roads similar to the ones in Bruges Belgium.

Or investing more in a good reliable PT system.

For those that have not visited Bruges, let me describe a car journey
to that city.

We arrived on the Sea Cat (The Vomit Comet) at Ostend and drive 13
miles to Bruges where you are directed down a tunnel some miles out
of the city. After driving some distance underground, you are directed
into giant car parks and take the lift back to daylight, where you
arrive in the middle of a huge town square with Bars and restaurants
around the edge, and the latest shops within a short walk.
No Stress at all.

None? You jest.
Now had you jumped on Eurostar and simply crossed platforms in Brussels it is
likely you would have ha a much more pleasant journey.

Just think of the 40 mile drive to find the nearest open station, the £12 a day
parking when there, the 2 hour wait on a deserted ice cold platform for the
delayed intercity to get to London that costs twice as much as Eurostar and
arrives at the other side of London lugging your bags down onto the underground
(now rush hour after the delay). Ah how pleasant and I still haven't made it to
the station to get the Eurostar. As the 40 miles I would need to drive (due to
all the local stations being closed due to track maintenance) is only a few
miles shorter than I would need to get to a port I don't see me letting the
train cause the strain. Though I'm less than 40 miles from an airport so I would
hop on a flight for 1/2 the cost of a train fare to London and use the remaining
1/2 to hire a car for the time I'm over there.

Now had you jumped on Eurostar and simply crossed platforms in Brussels it
is
likely you would have ha a much more pleasant journey. Just think, not
having
to queue at the ferry port or having to drive.

That ignores the pleasure you would get from getting to the Eurostar
terminal on public transport
with two children and assorted luggage in tow, repeating that in Brussels in
order to travel BACKWARDS to Bruges. Adding all the cost together will put
as smile on your 'flexible friend' but not your face.

Driving is still a pleasure to few perverted people, but not for long if the
likes of John B. have their way !
Regards,
Martin

JohnB writes:
Buster wrote:
For those that have not visited Bruges, let me describe a car journey
to that city.

We arrived on the Sea Cat (The Vomit Comet) at Ostend and drive 13
miles to Bruges where you are directed down a tunnel some miles out
of the city. After driving some distance underground, you are directed
into giant car parks and take the lift back to daylight, where you
arrive in the middle of a huge town square with Bars and restaurants
around the edge, and the latest shops within a short walk.
No Stress at all.

None? You jest.
Now had you jumped on Eurostar and simply crossed platforms in Brussels it is
likely you would have ha a much more pleasant journey. Just think, not having
to queue at the ferry port or having to drive. You even admit the crossing is
less than enjoyable.
Instead, you could relax with a book and a meal, or enjoy a snooze.

From your self-centered point of view, yes. But the OP could have
been carrying a substantial amount of luggage (or intending to carry a
substantial amount - e.g. beer - back), been travelling as a large
group, or with babies or small children. He could also have decided
to travel at short notice, or started from somewhere well outside
London.

Any of those factors could make train journeys and multiple
interchanges totally impractical, prohibitively expensive or just far
too much trouble.

We need some new thinking on this. Public transport is not the answer,

It goes towards providing it. More roads don't.

It doesn't provide anything for those who can't use it, for whatever
reason.

--
Jonathan Marten, SCM Team Engineer VSP Bracknell, UK
Sun Microsystems

"Progress is not expedited by frequent requests for progress reports"

"Martin²" wrote in message
...

Now had you jumped on Eurostar and simply crossed platforms in Brussels it
is
likely you would have ha a much more pleasant journey. Just think, not
having
to queue at the ferry port or having to drive.

That ignores the pleasure you would get from getting to the Eurostar
terminal on public transport
with two children and assorted luggage in tow

Isn't it sad that it's often quicker and almost always cheaper to fly to Paris
than take the train to London.

Jonathan Marten - Volume Systems Products UK wrote:

JohnB writes:
Buster wrote:
For those that have not visited Bruges, let me describe a car journey
to that city.

We arrived on the Sea Cat (The Vomit Comet) at Ostend and drive 13
miles to Bruges where you are directed down a tunnel some miles out
of the city. After driving some distance underground, you are directed
into giant car parks and take the lift back to daylight, where you
arrive in the middle of a huge town square with Bars and restaurants
around the edge, and the latest shops within a short walk.
No Stress at all.

None? You jest.
Now had you jumped on Eurostar and simply crossed platforms in Brussels it is
likely you would have ha a much more pleasant journey. Just think, not having
to queue at the ferry port or having to drive. You even admit the crossing is
less than enjoyable.
Instead, you could relax with a book and a meal, or enjoy a snooze.

From your self-centered point of view, yes. But the OP could have
been carrying a substantial amount of luggage (or intending to carry a
substantial amount - e.g. beer - back), been travelling as a large
group, or with babies or small children. He could also have decided
to travel at short notice, or started from somewhere well outside
London.

Well there you are then.
I make the journey several times a year, usually with wife and four children, two
still of primary school age. We regularly stay in Bruges.
Oh, and I usually book only few days before travelling.

And no, I don't live in London. and yes I travel from a rural station.

Any of those factors could make train journeys and multiple
interchanges totally impractical, prohibitively expensive or just far
too much trouble.

They could in *your* "self-centred point of view" but somehow in mine they don't.
Perhaps its something with not having such a closed mind.


It doesn't provide anything for those who can't use it, for whatever
reason.

Neither for those who refuse to look at possible alternatives.

John B