Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

....apparently:

"London Mayor Boris Johnson has announced plans that he hopes will
make the city the electric vehicle (EV) capital of Europe" - report
from technology news site The Register:
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/05...capital_plans/


Two interesting excerpts from this story...
---quote---
Only 2500 of the charging posts will be installed and funded directly
by the GLA. The remaining 22,500 will come as a result of the GLA
working “with the [London] boroughs and other partners”.

Further details of exactly what that means and, crucially, who’ll pay
for the posts will follow in an announcement in November.
---/quote---

....and...

---quote---
In related news, a report by analyst Frost and Sullivan has suggested
that in order to promote widespread use of EVs governments must
“ensure the availability of at least four charging points per EV in
the first year”.

If the analysis is correct then London alone will need 250,000 charge
points by 2015, rather than the GLA's projected 25,000 points.
---/quote---


I'm all for electric cars, no doubt, but they're obviously not the
magic solution to London's transport needs (though one fear Bozza & Co
are capable of selling it as such). That said, it doesn't stop them
playing a part in London's travel mix - page 9 of this Electric
Vehicles Plan from the Mayor does at least set out some legitimate
arguments as to why "London is the best potential market for EVs
[Electric Vehicles] in the UK" - see (PDF):
http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/publi...icles-plan.pdf

And of course the electricity to power said vehicles needs to be
generated somewhere and somehow - which is in itself a rather wider
debate, and indeed one which is currently going on.

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

In message
, at
06:49:14 on Fri, 22 May 2009, Mizter T remarked:
And of course the electricity to power said vehicles needs to be
generated somewhere and somehow - which is in itself a rather wider
debate, and indeed one which is currently going on.

And in London the problem is distributing the electricity from the grid
to the end users. Even if there was a plentiful source of electricity,
you'd have to do quite a lot of work to get it where it's needed.
--
Roland Perry

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message

In message
,
at 06:49:14 on Fri, 22 May 2009, Mizter T
remarked:
And of course the electricity to power said vehicles needs to be
generated somewhere and somehow - which is in itself a rather wider
debate, and indeed one which is currently going on.

And in London the problem is distributing the electricity from the
grid to the end users. Even if there was a plentiful source of
electricity, you'd have to do quite a lot of work to get it where
it's needed.

Don't you need 3-phase for fast battery charging? Otherwise, it takes
many hours.

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

On May 22, 9:56*pm, "Recliner" wrote:

"Roland Perry" wrote:

In message
,
at 06:49:14 on Fri, 22 May 2009, Mizter T
remarked:
And of course the electricity to power said vehicles needs to be
generated somewhere and somehow - which is in itself a rather
wider debate, and indeed one which is currently going on.

And in London the problem is distributing the electricity from the
grid to the end users. Even if there was a plentiful source of
electricity, you'd have to do quite a lot of work to get it to where
it's needed.

Don't you need 3-phase for fast battery charging? *Otherwise, it takes
many hours.

Rather pathetically I'm on the edge of my knowledge when it comes to
this field, but yes my understanding is that you do need a 3-phase
supply for fast battery charging. The article I cited in the post that
started this thread said that the Mayor's plan is for three types of
charge points:

(1) 13A, 240V slow charge points
(2) 32A, 240V three-phase fast charge points
(3) 200A, 500V three-phase rapid charge points

N.B. Of the last category, the article says "the potential of these
posts is still being 'investigated' ".

It's also worth noting that the article says there'll only be 50 of
the fast charge points (the second category) by 2012, with a further
150 by 2015. Presumably this is only counting the charging points that
will be provided (or at least funded) by the Mayor/GLA/TfL - the bit I
quoted earlier has the Mayor hoping that the boroughs and other
partners will provide lots of others.

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

On May 23, 12:08*am, Mizter T wrote:

[snip]

(1) 13A, 240V slow charge points
(2) 32A, 240V three-phase fast charge points
(3) 200A, 500V three-phase rapid charge points

N.B. Of the last category, the article says "the potential of these
posts is still being 'investigated' ".

I probably should have added something to display a suitable level of
scepticism after quoting that!

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

In message , at 21:56:46 on
Fri, 22 May 2009, Recliner remarked:
And of course the electricity to power said vehicles needs to be
generated somewhere and somehow - which is in itself a rather wider
debate, and indeed one which is currently going on.

And in London the problem is distributing the electricity from the
grid to the end users. Even if there was a plentiful source of
electricity, you'd have to do quite a lot of work to get it where
it's needed.

Don't you need 3-phase for fast battery charging? Otherwise, it takes
many hours.

You need DC to charge a battery, and that can be derived from 1-phase
mains. But the supply would normally have to be 3-phase if you were
wanting to draw much more than 25kw.
--
Roland Perry

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message
, at
06:49:14 on Fri, 22 May 2009, Mizter T remarked:
And of course the electricity to power said vehicles needs to be
generated somewhere and somehow - which is in itself a rather wider
debate, and indeed one which is currently going on.

And in London the problem is distributing the electricity from the grid to
the end users. Even if there was a plentiful source of electricity, you'd
have to do quite a lot of work to get it where it's needed.
--
Roland Perry

Just dig up the relevant bit of road/pavement and tap into the existing
domestic supply cables that are under every street. This must have been the
approach for the existing charging points, and it's hardly rocket science.

D A Stocks

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

In message , at 17:34:59 on Mon, 25 May
2009, David A Stocks remarked:
And in London the problem is distributing the electricity from the
grid to the end users. Even if there was a plentiful source of
electricity, you'd have to do quite a lot of work to get it where
it's needed.

Just dig up the relevant bit of road/pavement and tap into the existing
domestic supply cables that are under every street. This must have been
the approach for the existing charging points, and it's hardly rocket
science.

You'll soon overload it if it's more than a few charging points per
street. Nor does this approach solve getting the extra power from the
outside world to the substations.
--
Roland Perry

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 17:34:59 on Mon, 25 May
2009, David A Stocks remarked:
And in London the problem is distributing the electricity from the grid
to the end users. Even if there was a plentiful source of electricity,
you'd have to do quite a lot of work to get it where it's needed.

Just dig up the relevant bit of road/pavement and tap into the existing
domestic supply cables that are under every street. This must have been
the approach for the existing charging points, and it's hardly rocket
science.

You'll soon overload it if it's more than a few charging points per
street.
A trickle-charge point is equivalent to a 13A socket inside a house. The
distribution system would barely notice that, even if everyone started
charging a car at the same time - we're talking about a system which copes
with events like a third of the nation's households putting a kettle on the
boil at the start of a TV commercial break. Fast charge points would
probably require rationing, probably by making them expensive to use. The
peaks in electricity demand tend to occur during the late afternoon when
cars are more likely to be out on the road than sat on charging points.

Nor does this approach solve getting the extra power from the outside
world to the substations.
We're talking about a gradual take-up over the next 20 years or so, and it
should all be very predictable. I suspect the major challenge is
generating the electricity, not the distribution.

D A Stocks

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

In message , at 21:51:54 on Mon, 25 May
2009, David A Stocks remarked:

And in London the problem is distributing the electricity from the
grid to the end users. Even if there was a plentiful source of
electricity, you'd have to do quite a lot of work to get it where
it's needed.

Just dig up the relevant bit of road/pavement and tap into the
existing domestic supply cables that are under every street. This
must have been the approach for the existing charging points, and
it's hardly rocket science.

You'll soon overload it if it's more than a few charging points per
street.
A trickle-charge point is equivalent to a 13A socket inside a house.

You want a bit more than a trickle charge - we were talking earlier
about the use of three-phase and up to 100amps.

Typical cars I've seen take about 3 hours at 12kw (that's 48amps) to
charge up.

Nor does this approach solve getting the extra power from the outside
world to the substations.
We're talking about a gradual take-up over the next 20 years or so, and
it should all be very predictable. I suspect the major challenge is
generating the electricity, not the distribution.

More electricity requires more distribution. London is pretty much maxed
out at the moment.
--
Roland Perry

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

David A Stocks wrote:

A trickle-charge point is equivalent to a 13A socket inside a house. The
distribution system would barely notice that, even if everyone started
charging a car at the same time - we're talking about a system which copes
with events like a third of the nation's households putting a kettle on the
boil at the start of a TV commercial break.

Yes, but a third of the nation's households will still put the kettle on
during a commercial break... while their car is plugged in outside. Peak
loads add. (Give or take the fact that everyone's watching different
channels these days)

Fast charge points would
probably require rationing, probably by making them expensive to use. The
peaks in electricity demand tend to occur during the late afternoon when
cars are more likely to be out on the road than sat on charging points.

With a suitably non-trickle feed, the charging would be controlled so that
it takes place during the troughs in demand. You'd have to say something
like 'charge me by 7.30am' and the charger would know that if it hadn't got
enough cheap (aka trough) power by 4am it would have to charge on
'expensive' power. But you still need the grid and generating plant to
supply that. The system is a very complex series of many feedback loops, so
controlling it is quite tricky.

We're talking about a gradual take-up over the next 20 years or so, and it
should all be very predictable. I suspect the major challenge is
generating the electricity, not the distribution.

I saw a figure somewhere that a new HV national grid connection can take up
to 7 years. So you need a lot of planning.

Theo

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

On Mon, 25 May 2009, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 21:51:54 on Mon, 25 May 2009,
David A Stocks remarked:

And in London the problem is distributing the electricity from the
grid to the end users. Even if there was a plentiful source of
electricity, you'd have to do quite a lot of work to get it where
it's needed.

Just dig up the relevant bit of road/pavement and tap into the
existing domestic supply cables that are under every street. This
must have been the approach for the existing charging points, and
it's hardly rocket science.

You'll soon overload it if it's more than a few charging points per
street.

A trickle-charge point is equivalent to a 13A socket inside a house.

You want a bit more than a trickle charge - we were talking earlier about the
use of three-phase and up to 100amps.

But if you'd read either the Reg article or Mizter T's second post, you'd
know that Boris *is* talking about trickle charge - 2000 of the points are
to be 13A. Another 150 are to be 32A x 240V three-phase, which in power
terms are scarcely a problem (equivalent to about three sockets rather
than one), but will obviously access to a three-phase supply. The 200A x
500V charge points aren't given a target number, as they're still being
investigated.

Typical cars I've seen take about 3 hours at 12kw (that's 48amps) to
charge up.

That would put the amount of energy delivered at ~130 MJ.

The Reg reports that the 13A points will "charge a car over several
hours", and that the 32A ones will "deliver a decent charge to an EV in
roughly 30 minutes". The former would put the power delivered at somewhere
between 44 and 79 MJ, depending on where 'several' falls in the range 4-7
[1], the latter at 13 MJ.

That's obviously quite a disparity - or rather, two disparities, between
your number and the Reg's, and the Reg's two numbers! I don't know if
someone's missed some zeroes, or if you've just seen some real
electron-guzzlers.

tom

[1] If it was less than four, it would be a few, not several, hours, and
if it was more than seven, it would be many!

--
The MAtrix had evarything in it: guns, a juimping off teh walls, flying
guns, a bullet tiem, evil computar machenes, numbers that flew, flying
gun bullets in slowar motian, juimping into a gun, dead police men,
computar hackeing, Kevin Mitnick, oven trailers, a old womans kitchen,
stairs, mature women in clotheing, head spark plugs, mechaanical squids,
Japaneseses assasins, tiem traval, volcanos, a monstar, slow time at
fastar speed, magic, wizzards, some dirty place, Kung Few, fighting,
a lot of mess explodsians EVARYWHERE, and just about anything else yuo
can names!

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

On Tue, 26 May 2009, Theo Markettos wrote:

David A Stocks wrote:

A trickle-charge point is equivalent to a 13A socket inside a house.
The distribution system would barely notice that, even if everyone
started charging a car at the same time - we're talking about a system
which copes with events like a third of the nation's households putting
a kettle on the boil at the start of a TV commercial break.

Yes, but a third of the nation's households will still put the kettle on
during a commercial break... while their car is plugged in outside.
Peak loads add. (Give or take the fact that everyone's watching
different channels these days)

Trickle chargers could be set up as frequency response units:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...eserve_service

Or something similar. Basically, at the point at which everyone switches
their kettles on, cars across the city stop charging for five minutes, and
resume once the tea is brewing.

Fast charge points would probably require rationing, probably by making
them expensive to use. The peaks in electricity demand tend to occur
during the late afternoon when cars are more likely to be out on the
road than sat on charging points.

With a suitably non-trickle feed, the charging would be controlled so
that it takes place during the troughs in demand. You'd have to say
something like 'charge me by 7.30am' and the charger would know that if
it hadn't got enough cheap (aka trough) power by 4am it would have to
charge on 'expensive' power. But you still need the grid and generating
plant to supply that. The system is a very complex series of many
feedback loops, so controlling it is quite tricky.

It is, but it is not (quite) beyond the wit of man. I think you're
suggesting something along the lines of what i suggested above, but
cleverer.

tom

--
unconstrained by any considerations of humanity or decency

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

In message . li, at
12:24:27 on Tue, 26 May 2009, Tom Anderson
remarked:
A trickle-charge point is equivalent to a 13A socket inside a house.

You want a bit more than a trickle charge - we were talking earlier
about the use of three-phase and up to 100amps.

But if you'd read either the Reg article or Mizter T's second post,
you'd know that Boris *is* talking about trickle charge - 2000 of the
points are to be 13A. Another 150 are to be 32A x 240V three-phase,
which in power terms are scarcely a problem (equivalent to about three
sockets rather than one), but will obviously access to a three-phase
supply. The 200A x 500V charge points aren't given a target number, as
they're still being investigated.

Unfortunately that number of charging points is a drop in the ocean.

Typical cars I've seen take about 3 hours at 12kw (that's 48amps) to
charge up.

That would put the amount of energy delivered at ~130 MJ.

The Reg reports that the 13A points will "charge a car over several
hours",

to *fully* charge would take 10 hours. Which is "several" in my book.

and that the 32A ones will "deliver a decent charge to an EV in roughly
30 minutes".

Decent is not full. It's enough to limp to the next charging point.

The former would put the power delivered at somewhere between 44 and 79
MJ, depending on where 'several' falls in the range 4-7 [1], the latter
at 13 MJ.

That's obviously quite a disparity - or rather, two disparities,
between your number and the Reg's, and the Reg's two numbers! I don't
know if someone's missed some zeroes, or if you've just seen some real
electron-guzzlers.

The orders of magnitude are very similar.

And having spent the last 30 struggling with a series of battery laptops
where the power characteristics were described by rabid optimists, I
have little faith that early (~ next 20 years) battery cars will be any
better.
--
Roland Perry

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

David A Stocks wrote:

events like a third of the nation's
households putting a kettle on the boil at the start of a TV
commercial break.

I've just thought of a solution to that problem - kettles should have a
standby mode in which they consume as much power as when they are boiling
water.

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 26 May 2009, Theo Markettos wrote:

Or something similar. Basically, at the point at which everyone switches
their kettles on, cars across the city stop charging for five minutes, and
resume once the tea is brewing.

It is, but it is not (quite) beyond the wit of man. I think you're
suggesting something along the lines of what i suggested above, but
cleverer.

Yes, that's the sort of thing I was getting at. It would have to be
carefully designed to avoid this kind of thing:

Night electricity cheap
Everyone's car is set to come on charge at 2am when electricity is cheap
Power surge, electricity expensive
Everyone's car switches off
Load dip, electricity cheap
Everyone's car switches on
etc, repeat as fast as the network can switch

At which point you've not only fried the car charging electronics, but
potentially fried the generating plant too. When there are millions of
demand-sensitive devices, the control system gets very complex. As you also
have to worry about keeping the network synchronised at 50Hz.

Not exactly a piece of cake to design, but it's not beyond the laws of
physics so it's possible.

Theo

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

"Theo Markettos" wrote in message
...
With a suitably non-trickle feed, the charging would be controlled so that
it takes place during the troughs in demand. You'd have to say something
like 'charge me by 7.30am' and the charger would know that if it hadn't
got
enough cheap (aka trough) power by 4am it would have to charge on
'expensive' power. But you still need the grid and generating plant to
supply that. The system is a very complex series of many feedback loops,
so
controlling it is quite tricky.

A similar mechanism already exists for off-peak domestic customers using
night storage heaters, who get a contract stating something like "you get 7
hours of cheap rate elctricity between the hours of 2300 and 0800 the
following morning", together with a radio controlled switch for that part of
the supply. The switches are used by the local suppliers to manipulate their
overall load in order to buy bulk electricity at the best market prices from
the generators.

It should be possible to come up with something similar for charging cars.
If you want a 100% charge in the shortest time possible during peak demand
you pay a premium for it. If you want a 25% top-up charge spread over a few
hours you get a cheaper rate. It should be possible to manage the overall
demand on the National Grid and local distribution networks in order to
avoid major upgrades - for a while.

D A Stocks

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

In message , at 01:09:37 on Thu, 28 May
2009, David A Stocks remarked:
A similar mechanism already exists for off-peak domestic customers
using night storage heaters, who get a contract stating something like
"you get 7 hours of cheap rate elctricity between the hours of 2300 and
0800 the following morning", together with a radio controlled switch
for that part of the supply. The switches are used by the local
suppliers to manipulate their overall load in order to buy bulk
electricity at the best market prices from the generators.

What they forget to mention quite as loudly is that you get charged
*more* for the daytime electricity, not just *less* for the night-time.
Unless at least a third of your consumption is overnight, you will end
up paying more overall.
--
Roland Perry

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

On May 28, 10:42*am, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 01:09:37 on Thu, 28 May
2009, David A Stocks remarked:

A similar mechanism already exists for off-peak domestic customers
using night storage heaters, who get a contract stating something like
"you get 7 hours of cheap rate electricity between the hours of 2300 and
0800 the following morning", together with a radio controlled switch
for that part of the supply. The switches are used by the local
suppliers to manipulate their overall load in order to buy bulk
electricity at the best market prices from the generators.

What they forget to mention quite as loudly is that you get charged
*more* for the daytime electricity, not just *less* for the night-time.
Unless at least a third of your consumption is overnight, you will end
up paying more overall.

Hence night storage heaters and hot water boilers with timers (a
principle that can extend to other appliances e.g. washing machines
and dishwashers).

Also, this uSwitch webpage suggests that it can make sense if one's
night-time energy consumption is "roughly 20%" as opposed to a third
as you suggested:
http://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/economy-7/

Still, you're quite right to say that it could well prove to be a
false economy.

Nonetheless the principle could be utilised for car charging, either
through on-street charge points or fed by the car owner's domestic
electricity supply - of course charging a car from one's domestic
supply entails being able to park the car more or less next to one's
home, and dealing with getting the cable across the pavement as well
(these problems don't apply with a driveway or garage of course).

Nearby-ish to where I live there's someone who has one of these G-Wiz
electric cars - they seem to be able to park it outside their house
most of the time (it's a quiet dead-end street) and the cable they use
across the pavement (which doesn't get a lot of traffic) is one of
those arrangements with a rubbery mat so it lies flat and appears to
largely mitigate the trip factor, but I'm not sure it'd be so workable
if the pavement was a somewhat more popular walking route.

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

In message
, at
04:32:18 on Thu, 28 May 2009, Mizter T remarked:
Hence night storage heaters and hot water boilers with timers (a
principle that can extend to other appliances e.g. washing machines
and dishwashers).

This is a classic example of market failure. Why should I run around
putting all those things on timers, with all the inconvenience of taking
2 days to wash clothes [wash at 2am one day, dry at 2am the next day],
just to return my bill to the level it used to be before!!

Also, this uSwitch webpage suggests that it can make sense if one's
night-time energy consumption is "roughly 20%" as opposed to a third
as you suggested:

1/3 is a sexier fraction than 1/5 :)

http://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/economy-7/

Still, you're quite right to say that it could well prove to be a
false economy.

Although the rates could be adjusted.

Nonetheless the principle could be utilised for car charging, either
through on-street charge points or fed by the car owner's domestic
electricity supply

If the rates are calculated properly.

- of course charging a car from one's domestic
supply entails being able to park the car more or less next to one's
home, and dealing with getting the cable across the pavement as well
(these problems don't apply with a driveway or garage of course).

It'll make the fight for a parking space exactly outside your own house
much fiercer!

Nearby-ish to where I live there's someone who has one of these G-Wiz
electric cars - they seem to be able to park it outside their house
most of the time (it's a quiet dead-end street) and the cable they use
across the pavement (which doesn't get a lot of traffic) is one of
those arrangements with a rubbery mat so it lies flat and appears to
largely mitigate the trip factor, but I'm not sure it'd be so workable
if the pavement was a somewhat more popular walking route.

I wonder if there are any rules about that kind of thing. For example,
the car isn't directly earthed, so what if there's a fault somewhere?
--
Roland Perry

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

This is a classic example of market failure. Why should I run around
putting all those things on timers, with all the inconvenience of taking 2
days to wash clothes [wash at 2am one day, dry at 2am the next day], just
to return my bill to the level it used to be before!!

I don't! You completely missed the point of my post and assumed I was
talking about Economy7 tariffs.

In my case I have a separate supply which is connected to the heating system
*only*, and it's switched via the electricity suppliers switch. My main
supply is charged at the standard rate - I effectively get two bills. The
switched supply has a simple mechanical time switch which gives me 7 hours
overnight and a 3.5 hours during the afternoon.

HOWEVER, my parents have the radio controlled switch that I described in my
original post and (like me) it controls the heating circuits and (like me)
it gives them 7 hours overnight and 3.5 hours in the afternoon. However,
they don't know for certain when the supply is active, because their
supplier can remotely switch the supply at their convenience in order to get
the best prices from the National Grid - in effect the local supplier will
selectively shed load when the grid 'market' price rises, whilst ensuring
that everyone gets their quota of cheap rate hours fed to their heating
systems. For obvious reasons consumers aren't allowed to connect appliances
like dishwashers and washing machines to a supply that is controlled in this
manner, but my parents get cheap rate overnight electricity on their main
supply (per Economy7) as well.

Just to get us back to the original thread, I was suggesting that a similar
mechanism could be used to control car charging points in order to avoid
overloading local and national electricity distribution networks during
peaks in demand, thus delaying (or possibly avoiding altogether) the
requirement for the major upgrades that you had suggested would be
necessary.

D A Stocks.

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

On Thu, 28 May 2009, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 01:09:37 on Thu, 28 May 2009,
David A Stocks remarked:
..
A similar mechanism already exists for off-peak domestic customers
using night storage heaters, who get a contract stating something like
"you get 7 hours of cheap rate elctricity between the hours of 2300 and
0800 the following morning", together with a radio controlled switch
for that part of the supply. The switches are used by the local
suppliers to manipulate their overall load in order to buy bulk
electricity at the best market prices from the generators.

What they forget to mention quite as loudly is that you get charged
*more* for the daytime electricity, not just *less* for the night-time.
Unless at least a third of your consumption is overnight, you will end
up paying more overall.

I was on Economy 7 for a couple of years. Bloody nightmare. Possibly
cheaper than normal if you're careful, but if you do need more heat or
some hot water in the day, bad luck. The solution to expensive electricity
is not Economy 7 and storage heaters, it's gas!

Also, due to an error in which the night and day totals got mixed up, i
was once billed for 7000 GBP ...

tom

--
Interesting, but possibly aimed at madmen. -- Charlie Brooker, on
Torchwood

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

In message . li, at
00:54:47 on Fri, 29 May 2009, Tom Anderson
remarked:
Also, due to an error in which the night and day totals got mixed up, i
was once billed for 7000 GBP ...

It was the computer's fault :)
--
Roland Perry

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

In message , at 00:17:42 on Fri, 29 May
2009, David A Stocks remarked:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

This is a classic example of market failure. Why should I run around
putting all those things on timers, with all the inconvenience of
taking 2 days to wash clothes [wash at 2am one day, dry at 2am the
next day], just to return my bill to the level it used to be before!!

I don't! You completely missed the point of my post and assumed I was
talking about Economy7 tariffs.

In my case I have a separate supply which is connected to the heating
system *only*, and it's switched via the electricity suppliers switch.
My main supply is charged at the standard rate - I effectively get two
bills. The switched supply has a simple mechanical time switch which
gives me 7 hours overnight and a 3.5 hours during the afternoon.

I've never come across such a supply, hence the confusion.

HOWEVER, my parents have the radio controlled switch that I described
in my original post and (like me) it controls the heating circuits and
(like me) it gives them 7 hours overnight and 3.5 hours in the
afternoon. However, they don't know for certain when the supply is
active,

And presumably (unlike Economy7) they can't do a "Boost" during the day
(albeit at a higher price).

because their supplier can remotely switch the supply at their
convenience in order to get the best prices from the National Grid - in
effect the local supplier will selectively shed load when the grid
'market' price rises, whilst ensuring that everyone gets their quota of
cheap rate hours fed to their heating systems.

With the heating system requiring separate wiring, I suppose.

For obvious reasons consumers aren't allowed to connect appliances like
dishwashers and washing machines to a supply that is controlled in this
manner, but my parents get cheap rate overnight electricity on their
main supply (per Economy7) as well.

But if their heating is on this separate "7 hour only" scheme, it's
virtually impossible that Economy7 would be value for money, because
with so little off-peak use of Economy7, and the hike in daytime rates
for E7 customers, the sums just don't work out.

Just to get us back to the original thread, I was suggesting that a
similar mechanism could be used to control car charging points in order
to avoid overloading local and national electricity distribution
networks during peaks in demand, thus delaying (or possibly avoiding
altogether) the requirement for the major upgrades that you had
suggested would be necessary.

But if the chargers are on separate circuits that only work at dead of
night, it's another case of "no Boost available", and you are in effect
rationing people to one-charge-per-day.
--
Roland Perry

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

In message . li, Tom
Anderson writes

The solution to expensive electricity is not Economy 7 and storage
heaters, it's gas!

.... or solar panels (ours supplies water at 30C on most winter days, and
at 75C at this time of year).
--
Paul Terry

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

But if the chargers are on separate circuits that only work at dead of
night, it's another case of "no Boost available", and you are in effect
rationing people to one-charge-per-day.

I was only describing the current service - there's a good description of it
he

http://www.energynetworks.org/rts/index.asp

The basic principle is that the consumer sacrifices some control of their
demand to the supplier. For a car charging application it makes sense to do
the remote switching at the charging point/socket or in the charging circuit
of the car/battery itself. A more sophisticated solution might use wireless
networking or GPRS to provide 2-way communication. It just requires a bit of
thought ...

D A Stocks

Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...
 

In message , at 14:04:46 on Sat, 30 May
2009, David A Stocks remarked:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

But if the chargers are on separate circuits that only work at dead
of night, it's another case of "no Boost available", and you are in
effect rationing people to one-charge-per-day.

I was only describing the current service - there's a good description
of it he

http://www.energynetworks.org/rts/index.asp

That seems to describe the technology - do you have any pointers to
suppliers/tariffs?

The basic principle is that the consumer sacrifices some control of
their demand to the supplier. For a car charging application it makes
sense to do the remote switching at the charging point/socket or in the
charging circuit of the car/battery itself. A more sophisticated
solution might use wireless networking or GPRS to provide 2-way
communication. It just requires a bit of thought ...

A bit like moving block signalling, then ;)
--
Roland Perry