[original thread on uk.raiwlay]
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]

embers25 wrote:
SouthEastern have finally revealed the times and supplements for their
trial HS1 service starting on June 29th.

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk..._items/view/94


Thanks for the heads up. For the record, I'll just copy a bit of that
press release below:
---quote---
Southeastern today confirmed that a limited high speed ‘preview’
service will begin on the 29 June. The preview service will run on
High Speed 1 between Ashford International, Ebbsfleet International
and St Pancras International from Monday to Friday.The preview service
will offer passengers the chance to experience what the UK’s first
high speed service will be like when it is fully introduced on 13
December.

The preview services will also allow Southeastern to continue testing,
training, adjust to passenger feedback and ensure that the full
introduction of the service runs smoothly.

The high speed service will radically improve travel times for many
passengers, using the High Speed 1. Journey times from Ashford
International to London will be just 37 minutes and from Ebbsfleet
International the journey will take just 17 minutes. The preview
service will run three morning peak services from Ashford
International to St Pancras International and three peak services in
the evening peak. Trains from Ebbsfleet International will see four
morning peak services to St Pancras International and six peak
services back in the evening peak. Throughout the day services will
run twice hourly between Ebbsfleet International and St Pancras
International. The full timetable can be seen below.
---/quote---


So, they'll only be offering peak time trains from Ashford during this
preview service, but there'll be an all day half-hourly service from
Ebbsfleet.

A few other things I noted - "all first class ticket holders are able
to travel on the high speed service for no extra cost". Also, AIUI the
class 395 trains are classless.

Southeastern have decided to use the term "Mainline" to differentiate
their regular services from the High-speed service - previously many
observers here seem to have copied the French terminology by speaking
of "Classic" lines.

And lastly the timetable notes a "Daylight HS1 track inspection"
period around noon, though then goes on to say that "Currently track
engineers inspect high speed infrastructure during daylight hours.
This is being reviews for the start of the full service in December
2009."

I hadn't entirely realised there was an LGV style 'black-out' period
during the day (though that's not the right term but I forget the
correct one) on HS1 at the moment.


Supplements seem quite hefty but I get the impression when the real
service kicks in they will be even higher.

The formula for the 'via HS1' fares premium is no secret, it's
published in the Southeastern franchise documents. The Ashford
supplement for the preview service is the same as for the full service
and is in line with this formula.

Mizter T wrote:
[original thread on uk.raiwlay]
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]

embers25 wrote:
SouthEastern have finally revealed the times and supplements for
their trial HS1 service starting on June 29th.
snipped
Supplements seem quite hefty but I get the impression when the real
service kicks in they will be even higher.

The formula for the 'via HS1' fares premium is no secret, it's
published in the Southeastern franchise documents. The Ashford
supplement for the preview service is the same as for the full service
and is in line with this formula.

Which has been discussed here a number of times, and has been calculated to
be about +10% for the longest journeys. Doesn't seem to stop people
exaggerating it at every chance though...

Paul

On Jun 1, 11:54*am, Mizter T wrote:

And lastly the timetable notes a "Daylight HS1 track inspection"
period around noon, though then goes on to say that "Currently track
engineers inspect high speed infrastructure during daylight hours.
This is being reviews for the start of the full service in December
2009."

Interesting. Presumably this is currently fitted around 'white
periods' on the LGV Nord.

In message
, at
03:54:07 on Mon, 1 Jun 2009, Mizter T remarked:
So, they'll only be offering peak time trains from Ashford during this
preview service, but there'll be an all day half-hourly service from
Ebbsfleet.

Perhaps they are expecting people to use Ebbsfleet as a P&R for London.
I'd certainly give that try if I lived nearby on the M25. Ashford is a
run-down provincial town (sorry, but that's the reality), and I can't
see why people would want to travel from there to London and back on a
premium service outside commuter hours.

A few other things I noted - "all first class ticket holders are able
to travel on the high speed service for no extra cost". Also, AIUI the
class 395 trains are classless.

Maybe the First Class premium is higher than the HS1 premium (Ashford's
FDR is more than twice the price of a SDR). The trip is short enough
that they couldn't serve a decent breakfast. Speaking of which, does
anyone know what catering they *are* providing on these trains?
--
Roland Perry

On Jun 1, 11:54 am, Mizter T wrote:
[original thread on uk.raiwlay]
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]

embers25 wrote:
SouthEastern have finally revealed the times and supplements for their
trial HS1 service starting on June 29th.

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk..._items/view/94

Thanks for the heads up. For the record, I'll just copy a bit of that
press release below:
---quote---
Southeastern today confirmed that a limited high speed ‘preview’
service will begin on the 29 June. The preview service will run on
High Speed 1 between Ashford International, Ebbsfleet International
and St Pancras International from Monday to Friday.The preview service
will offer passengers the chance to experience what the UK’s first
high speed service will be like when it is fully introduced on 13
December.

The preview services will also allow Southeastern to continue testing,
training, adjust to passenger feedback and ensure that the full
introduction of the service runs smoothly.

The high speed service will radically improve travel times for many
passengers, using the High Speed 1. Journey times from Ashford
International to London will be just 37 minutes and from Ebbsfleet
International the journey will take just 17 minutes. The preview
service will run three morning peak services from Ashford
International to St Pancras International and three peak services in
the evening peak. Trains from Ebbsfleet International will see four
morning peak services to St Pancras International and six peak
services back in the evening peak. Throughout the day services will
run twice hourly between Ebbsfleet International and St Pancras
International. The full timetable can be seen below.
---/quote---

So, they'll only be offering peak time trains from Ashford during this
preview service, but there'll be an all day half-hourly service from
Ebbsfleet.

A few other things I noted - "all first class ticket holders are able
to travel on the high speed service for no extra cost". Also, AIUI the
class 395 trains are classless.

Southeastern have decided to use the term "Mainline" to differentiate
their regular services from the High-speed service - previously many
observers here seem to have copied the French terminology by speaking
of "Classic" lines.

And lastly the timetable notes a "Daylight HS1 track inspection"
period around noon, though then goes on to say that "Currently track
engineers inspect high speed infrastructure during daylight hours.
This is being reviews for the start of the full service in December
2009."

I hadn't entirely realised there was an LGV style 'black-out' period
during the day (though that's not the right term but I forget the
correct one) on HS1 at the moment.



Supplements seem quite hefty but I get the impression when the real
service kicks in they will be even higher.

The formula for the 'via HS1' fares premium is no secret, it's
published in the Southeastern franchise documents. The Ashford
supplement for the preview service is the same as for the full service
and is in line with this formula.

According to the Independent, Southeastern managing director Charles
Horton said: "The fares that we are announcing today are for the
preview service only and we feel they offer value for money for
passengers."
which vaguely implies fares may be higher after the preview period.
Tim

"EE507" wrote in message
...
On Jun 1, 11:54 am, Mizter T wrote:

And lastly the timetable notes a "Daylight HS1 track inspection"
period around noon, though then goes on to say that "Currently track
engineers inspect high speed infrastructure during daylight hours.
This is being reviews for the start of the full service in December
2009."

Interesting. Presumably this is currently fitted around 'white
periods' on the LGV Nord.
------
What's the point of daylight inspection between Ebbsfleet and St Pancras?
Most of it is in tunnel, so daylight makes no difference.

There's a gap between E* departures from St Pancras between 1100 and 1229
(except on Fridays and Sundays). However there is no corresponding gap
between arrivals, which are at approximately hourly intervals at that sort
of time of day.

Peter

In message
, at
05:27:28 on Mon, 1 Jun 2009, TimB remarked:
According to the Independent, Southeastern managing director Charles
Horton said: "The fares that we are announcing today are for the
preview service only and we feel they offer value for money for
passengers."
which vaguely implies fares may be higher after the preview period.

It's also possible to read it as "these prices are higher than in future
because it's an exciting new service, but nevertheless value for money".

However, I think the prices in future will increase, if only by whatever
normal inflation-linked rises are allowed.
--
Roland Perry

TimB wrote:
On Jun 1, 11:54 am, Mizter T wrote:

The formula for the 'via HS1' fares premium is no secret, it's
published in the Southeastern franchise documents. The Ashford
supplement for the preview service is the same as for the full
service and is in line with this formula.

According to the Independent, Southeastern managing director Charles
Horton said: "The fares that we are announcing today are for the
preview service only and we feel they offer value for money for
passengers."
which vaguely implies fares may be higher after the preview period.

They can't be higher than shown relative to today's fares. Add 10p (least
possible change AIUI) to either single 'supplement' and they exceed the
allowed caps, ie 35% for services from Ebbsfleet, and 20% for via Ashford.
Services from the North Kent line via Ebbsfleet (not applicable yet) are
capped at 30%; it's all in the franchise ITT:

"Ebbsfleet/St Pancras: Fares will be based on the Gravesend/London fare,
subject to a maximum premium of 35%;

"Birchington-on-Sea & stations to the west/St Pancras via the North Kent
route: Fares will be based on the standard fare between the station
concerned and London, plus a maximum of 30% of the Gravesend/London fare;
and

"All stations/St Pancras via Ashford: Fares will be based on the standard
fare between the station concerned and London, plus a maximum of 20% of the
Ashford/London fare."

Therefore any other fares they announce, for destinations further away, will
have the same premium dependent on route, and as the conventional leg of the
journey has no premium allowed, the overall change will have to be less as a
percentage of the whole fare.

However if there is a general rise planned for September or January, that
could yet increase the fares & supplements. (See discussions previously
about negative RPI effects.)

That offpeak return supplement from Ebbsfleet of only £3.20 is presumably
not that silly compared with a couple of underground journeys from/to a
South London terminus to St Pancras is it? - for any pax with a destination
in the immediate vicinity.

Paul S

On Jun 1, 1:18 pm, Roland Perry wrote:

In message
, at
03:54:07 on Mon, 1 Jun 2009, Mizter T remarked:

So, they'll only be offering peak time trains from Ashford during this
preview service, but there'll be an all day half-hourly service from
Ebbsfleet.

Perhaps they are expecting people to use Ebbsfleet as a P&R for London.
I'd certainly give that try if I lived nearby on the M25. Ashford is a
run-down provincial town (sorry, but that's the reality), and I can't
see why people would want to travel from there to London and back on a
premium service outside commuter hours.

Though come the full service there will be 2tph off-peak from Ashford
into London. And Ashford could also perhaps provide a P&R style
offering for those in the surrounding area, areas of which at least
are quite affluent. Also, I don't know Ashford at all well but
wikipedia pointed me in the way of this Channel 4 survey where they
judged it the fourth best place to live in the UK! See:
http://tinyurl.com/C4-best-places-to-live-05


A few other things I noted - "all first class ticket holders are able
to travel on the high speed service for no extra cost". Also, AIUI the
class 395 trains are classless.

Maybe the First Class premium is higher than the HS1 premium (Ashford's
FDR is more than twice the price of a SDR). The trip is short enough
that they couldn't serve a decent breakfast. Speaking of which, does
anyone know what catering they *are* providing on these trains?

None - or rather I should so I'm not sure there us going to be any, at
least I haven't heard of anything. Unless I'm missing something, the
longest journey time is going to be 91 minutes to Margate (it ain't
called "high-speed" for nothing!) - see this table of journey times:
http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk.../pages/view/66

A while back Southeastern produced a helpful PDF map which compared
"High-speed" versus "Mainline" journey times from places in Kent to
London - it's long since disappeared off their website but I'm sure I
saved it somewhere, as it helps to illustrate things.

In the meantime there are maps of both the High-speed peak and off-
peak service patterns linked to from this webpage...
http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk....php/highspeed

....however I've found the server that, er, serves them to be a bit on
the slow side so I've uploaded 'some that I saved earlier' to a bit of
webspace - hence they can be found here (PDFs):

* Peak
http://mizter.t.googlepages.com/High...k_services.pdf
* Off-peak
http://mizter.t.googlepages.com/High...k_services.pdf

Roland Perry wrote:
In message
,
at 03:54:07 on Mon, 1 Jun 2009, Mizter T
remarked:
So, they'll only be offering peak time trains from Ashford during
this preview service, but there'll be an all day half-hourly service
from Ebbsfleet.

Perhaps they are expecting people to use Ebbsfleet as a P&R for
London.

I think that's a given, 2500 spaces aren't going to fill up with Eurostar
pax going the other way are they?

Paul S