On Jun 5, 11:28 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:47:05 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:

On Jun 5, 8:31 pm, Paul Weaver wrote:

On 5 June, 20:20, Paul Corfield wrote:

Other than the above I know nothing else and would suggest it is prudent
to have a contingency plan in place if you absolutely have to get around
London on the 11th.

A bike is a perfectly adequate way of getting around zones 1 and 2

Getting a bike to zones 1 and 2 could present more of an issue though.

True but the OP has not indicated what their particular requirements
are. It might be there is some clever way of getting about that he has
not considered. I appreciate there are no guarantees about being able
to get on trains, DLR or buses but there may be options by being
"unconventional" that people would not routinely consider. People also
need to bear in mind that a number of former NR stations are now LUL
managed and therefore might well be affected - the former Silverlink
stations! This creates new problems and restrictions - especially in NW
London.

Good point about the ex-Silverlink stations now under LUL management -
that's all stations from Harrow & Wealdstone to Queen's Park with the
exception of Willesden Jn, Kew Gardens, Gunnersbury, plus there's the
other stations where LU now "manage" the Overground platforms - i.e.
West Brompton, Highbury & Islington, Blackhorse Road.

Then there's stations where LUL manages the main bit of the station
though not the National Rail platforms - e.g. West Ham, Seven Sisters,
Stratford.

I'm guessing that LU would deploy what staff they had so as to cover
these major interchange stations, but maybe there wouldn't be enough
suitably qualified staff to cover the Harrow & Wealdstone to Queen's
Park stretch? That said, weren't some of these stations unmanned for
at least some of the day in the Silverlink era?

And what about Chiltern Railways - there's the question of whether
they could call at their normal LU stations - i.e. Amersham, Chalfont
& Latimer, Chorleywood, Rickmansworth, Harrow-on-the-Hill - but is
there also any question about whether they could actually run - are
the LU signallers going on strike too? Even if they could call at
those stations.

On Jun 6, 1:05*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 6 Jun 2009 04:55:47 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:

On Jun 5, 11:28 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

[snip]

True but the OP has not indicated what their particular requirements
are. It might be there is some clever way of getting about that he has
not considered. *I appreciate there are no guarantees about being able
to get on trains, DLR or buses but there may be options by being
"unconventional" that people would not routinely consider. *People also
need to bear in mind that a number of former NR stations are now LUL
managed and therefore might well be affected - the former Silverlink
stations! *This creates new problems and restrictions - especially in NW
London.

Good point about the ex-Silverlink stations now under LUL management -
that's all stations from Harrow & Wealdstone to Queen's Park with the
exception of Willesden Jn, Kew Gardens, Gunnersbury, plus there's the
other stations where LU now "manage" the Overground platforms - i.e.
West Brompton, Highbury & Islington, Blackhorse Road.

Err I thought Gunnersbury and Kew Gardens were with LU now.

That's what I said - but re-reading it, I see it wasn't at all clear -
the exception I was speaking of was simply Willesden Jn on the H&W to
Queen's Park stretch of the DC lines - Kew Gardens and Gunnersbury
were just meant to be in the list of LUL managed stations.


Then there's stations where LUL manages the main bit of the station
though not the National Rail platforms - e.g. West Ham, Seven Sisters,
Stratford.

Correct. *Tottenham Hale in terms of the ticket office but there is
independent access to the NR platforms, similar applies to Walthamstow
Central.

Well of course the NR side of Walthamstow Central can operate quite
independently as the ticket offices aren't in the LU bit (of course
you know all this very well!). At Tottenham Hale there's at least one
if not two NR ticket machines outside the LU building in the covered
area near the platforms - NXEA could just send some RPIs up there to
sell tickets.


I'm guessing that LU would deploy what staff they had so as to cover
these major interchange stations, but maybe there wouldn't be enough
suitably qualified staff to cover the Harrow & Wealdstone to Queen's
Park stretch? That said, weren't some of these stations unmanned for
at least some of the day in the Silverlink era?

I doubt the ex Silverlink stations could run unmanned today as I believe
there have been changes to the safety case etc. *Not 100% certain on
this point.

Which is an interesting follow-on discussion in and of itself - though
I hesitate to follow that line of discussion without being in full
possession of the facts.


And what about Chiltern Railways - there's the question of whether
they could call at their normal LU stations - i.e. Amersham, Chalfont
& Latimer, Chorleywood, Rickmansworth, Harrow-on-the-Hill - but is
there also any question about whether they could actually run - are
the LU signallers going on strike too? Even if they could call at
those stations.

[Sorry, unfinished sentence alert! I'll finish this point below...]


It's all RMT staff so that includes the signal staff so even if ASLEF
drivers predominate on a line then it could be as in the past where lack
of signal staff mean few if any trains run.

OK, thanks for clearing that up.

As I was going to say before I interrupted myself(!)... Even if they
(Chiltern Railway) could call at those stations (i.e. the LU stations
on the Aylesbury route), they might not want to as their trains could
end up being overrun. But if there's no signallers, then they wouldn't
be able to run a service at all.

(I suppose Chiltern could possibly run a Harrow-on-the-Hill to
Marylebone shuttle if a few non-striking LU signallers could be found
- though are there any crossovers south of HotH?)


[For those reading this thread on utl, sorry for the cross-posting
confusion - I've x-posted two separate parts of a uk.railway thread to
utl, hence the somewhat non-sequiter nature of how this appears in
utl.]

On 6 June, 15:23, Mizter T wrote:
On Jun 6, 1:05*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:





On Sat, 6 Jun 2009 04:55:47 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:

On Jun 5, 11:28 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

[snip]

True but the OP has not indicated what their particular requirements
are. It might be there is some clever way of getting about that he has
not considered. *I appreciate there are no guarantees about being able
to get on trains, DLR or buses but there may be options by being
"unconventional" that people would not routinely consider. *People also
need to bear in mind that a number of former NR stations are now LUL
managed and therefore might well be affected - the former Silverlink
stations! *This creates new problems and restrictions - especially in NW
London.

Good point about the ex-Silverlink stations now under LUL management -
that's all stations from Harrow & Wealdstone to Queen's Park with the
exception of Willesden Jn, Kew Gardens, Gunnersbury, plus there's the
other stations where LU now "manage" the Overground platforms - i.e.
West Brompton, Highbury & Islington, Blackhorse Road.

Err I thought Gunnersbury and Kew Gardens were with LU now.

That's what I said - but re-reading it, I see it wasn't at all clear -
the exception I was speaking of was simply Willesden Jn on the H&W to
Queen's Park stretch of the DC lines - Kew Gardens and Gunnersbury
were just meant to be in the list of LUL managed stations.



Then there's stations where LUL manages the main bit of the station
though not the National Rail platforms - e.g. West Ham, Seven Sisters,
Stratford.

Correct. *Tottenham Hale in terms of the ticket office but there is
independent access to the NR platforms, similar applies to Walthamstow
Central.

Well of course the NR side of Walthamstow Central can operate quite
independently as the ticket offices aren't in the LU bit (of course
you know all this very well!). At Tottenham Hale there's at least one
if not two NR ticket machines outside the LU building in the covered
area near the platforms - NXEA could just send some RPIs up there to
sell tickets.



I'm guessing that LU would deploy what staff they had so as to cover
these major interchange stations, but maybe there wouldn't be enough
suitably qualified staff to cover the Harrow & Wealdstone to Queen's
Park stretch? That said, weren't some of these stations unmanned for
at least some of the day in the Silverlink era?

I doubt the ex Silverlink stations could run unmanned today as I believe
there have been changes to the safety case etc. *Not 100% certain on
this point.

Which is an interesting follow-on discussion in and of itself - though
I hesitate to follow that line of discussion without being in full
possession of the facts.



And what about Chiltern Railways - there's the question of whether
they could call at their normal LU stations - i.e. Amersham, Chalfont
& Latimer, Chorleywood, Rickmansworth, Harrow-on-the-Hill - but is
there also any question about whether they could actually run - are
the LU signallers going on strike too? Even if they could call at
those stations.

[Sorry, unfinished sentence alert! I'll finish this point below...]



It's all RMT staff so that includes the signal staff so even if ASLEF
drivers predominate on a line then it could be as in the past where lack
of signal staff mean few if any trains run.

OK, thanks for clearing that up.

As I was going to say before I interrupted myself(!)... Even if they
(Chiltern Railway) could call at those stations (i.e. the LU stations
on the Aylesbury route), they might not want to as their trains could
end up being overrun. But if there's no signallers, then they wouldn't
be able to run a service at all.

(I suppose Chiltern could possibly run a Harrow-on-the-Hill to
Marylebone shuttle if a few non-striking LU signallers could be found
- though are there any crossovers south of HotH?)

There aren't.

On Jun 6, 3:48*pm, MIG wrote:

On 6 June, 15:23, Mizter T wrote:

[snip]

(I suppose Chiltern could possibly run a Harrow-on-the-Hill to
Marylebone shuttle if a few non-striking LU signallers could be found
- though are there any crossovers south of HotH?)

There aren't.

I'd like to say 'well in that case they can run two trains in steam'
on each line, but I'm sure there'd be problems with trying to treat
two non-reversible lines as reversible!

On 6 June, 16:53, Mizter T wrote:
On Jun 6, 3:48*pm, MIG wrote:

On 6 June, 15:23, Mizter T wrote:

[snip]

(I suppose Chiltern could possibly run a Harrow-on-the-Hill to
Marylebone shuttle if a few non-striking LU signallers could be found
- though are there any crossovers south of HotH?)

There aren't.

I'd like to say 'well in that case they can run two trains in steam'
on each line, but I'm sure there'd be problems with trying to treat
two non-reversible lines as reversible!

Actually, my mistake, there is a trailing crossover at Neasden, but I
don't think it would help.

On 6 June, 17:23, MIG wrote:
On 6 June, 16:53, Mizter T wrote:

On Jun 6, 3:48*pm, MIG wrote:

On 6 June, 15:23, Mizter T wrote:

[snip]

(I suppose Chiltern could possibly run a Harrow-on-the-Hill to
Marylebone shuttle if a few non-striking LU signallers could be found
- though are there any crossovers south of HotH?)

There aren't.

I'd like to say 'well in that case they can run two trains in steam'
on each line, but I'm sure there'd be problems with trying to treat
two non-reversible lines as reversible!

Actually, my mistake, there is a trailing crossover at Neasden, but I
don't think it would help.

Oh ang on though, if they used platform 1 at HotH, I think there may
be a crossover. Not sure if it isn't just a track crossing to/from
the Metropolitan or if it leads to/from the up Chiltern track as well.

On Jun 6, 5:29*pm, MIG wrote:
On 6 June, 17:23, MIG wrote:





On 6 June, 16:53, Mizter T wrote:

On Jun 6, 3:48*pm, MIG wrote:

On 6 June, 15:23, Mizter T wrote:

[snip]

(I suppose Chiltern could possibly run a Harrow-on-the-Hill to
Marylebone shuttle if a few non-striking LU signallers could be found
- though are there any crossovers south of HotH?)

There aren't.

I'd like to say 'well in that case they can run two trains in steam'
on each line, but I'm sure there'd be problems with trying to treat
two non-reversible lines as reversible!


There's no access for Down train to the Up Harrow at any point beyond
Marylebone itself, so there'd be no way of running such services with
the main Chiltern route open.

Actually, my mistake, there is a trailing crossover at Neasden, but I
don't think it would help.


Unfortunately, that's on the Marylebone side of the junction and is
almost certainly not signalled from Up trains from the Down Harrow
line.

Oh ang on though, if they used platform 1 at HotH, I think there may
be a crossover. *Not sure if it isn't just a track crossing to/from
the Metropolitan or if it leads to/from the up Chiltern track as well.

I can't remember if this crossover can be used from Up departures from
Platform 1 at Harrow. My memory tells me that there is no signal for
this route. What I can't remember is if the crossover from the NB Fast
to the Platform 1 just passes over the intervening Up line or whether
there is pointwork in the Up line allowing access.

On Sat, 6 Jun 2009 10:20:56 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Oh ang on though, if they used platform 1 at HotH, I think there may
be a crossover. *Not sure if it isn't just a track crossing to/from
the Metropolitan or if it leads to/from the up Chiltern track as well.

I can't remember if this crossover can be used from Up departures from
Platform 1 at Harrow. My memory tells me that there is no signal for
this route. What I can't remember is if the crossover from the NB Fast
to the Platform 1 just passes over the intervening Up line or whether
there is pointwork in the Up line allowing access.

There isn't pointwork - it's one of those things that I think is
referred to as a diamond crossing.

Then again, all the signalling in that area (and for some distance to
the east of Harrow, even on the NR lines) is LU-operated anyway. Or at
least the signals look like LU ones. So LU signallers would be needed
in any case (and if any were available, the trains could just reverse
using the trailing crossover to the west of Harrow).

Besides, in this age of can't-be-bothered railway operations, even
Chiltern would have to be absolute saints to run a Harrow-Marylebone
shuttle under such circumstances, what with the far easier option on
the table of just cancelling everything.

On 9 June, 00:38, asdf wrote:
On Sat, 6 Jun 2009 10:20:56 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
Oh ang on though, if they used platform 1 at HotH, I think there may
be a crossover. *Not sure if it isn't just a track crossing to/from
the Metropolitan or if it leads to/from the up Chiltern track as well.

I can't remember if this crossover can be used from Up departures from
Platform 1 at Harrow. My memory tells me that there is no signal for
this route. What I can't remember is if the crossover from the NB Fast
to the Platform 1 just passes over the intervening Up line or whether
there is pointwork in the Up line allowing access.

There isn't pointwork - it's one of those things that I think is
referred to as a diamond crossing.

Thanks, I though it probably was, but couldn't remember.


Then again, all the signalling in that area (and for some distance to
the east of Harrow, even on the NR lines) is LU-operated anyway. Or at
least the signals look like LU ones. So LU signallers would be needed
in any case (and if any were available, the trains could just reverse
using the trailing crossover to the west of Harrow).


That's true.

Besides, in this age of can't-be-bothered railway operations, even
Chiltern would have to be absolute saints to run a Harrow-Marylebone
shuttle under such circumstances, what with the far easier option on
the table of just cancelling everything.

Chiltern have run such shuttles in the past, when there has been
engineering work in the Wembley area. They reversed using the
crossover north/west of the station as you suggested.

On 9 June, 14:40, wrote:
On 9 June, 00:38, asdf wrote:

On Sat, 6 Jun 2009 10:20:56 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
Oh ang on though, if they used platform 1 at HotH, I think there may
be a crossover. *Not sure if it isn't just a track crossing to/from
the Metropolitan or if it leads to/from the up Chiltern track as well.

I can't remember if this crossover can be used from Up departures from
Platform 1 at Harrow. My memory tells me that there is no signal for
this route. What I can't remember is if the crossover from the NB Fast
to the Platform 1 just passes over the intervening Up line or whether
there is pointwork in the Up line allowing access.

There isn't pointwork - it's one of those things that I think is
referred to as a diamond crossing.

Thanks, I though it probably was, but couldn't remember.

It can't be that simple though, because it has to allow for
Metropolitan trains in both directions, doesn't it? So there must be
something from the up Chiltern to the Met as well as the diamond from
the Met to the down Chiltern, even if nothing from platform 1 to the
up Chiltern?




Then again, all the signalling in that area (and for some distance to
the east of Harrow, even on the NR lines) is LU-operated anyway. Or at
least the signals look like LU ones. So LU signallers would be needed
in any case (and if any were available, the trains could just reverse
using the trailing crossover to the west of Harrow).

That's true.

Besides, in this age of can't-be-bothered railway operations, even
Chiltern would have to be absolute saints to run a Harrow-Marylebone
shuttle under such circumstances, what with the far easier option on
the table of just cancelling everything.

Chiltern have run such shuttles in the past, when there has been
engineering work in the Wembley area. They reversed using the
crossover north/west of the station as you suggested.