Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

I'll be taking a train to Watford Junction next week using Oyster
pre-pay, and then continuing the journey on a charter train (paper
ticket) -- would I be correct in assuming that there are Oyster
validators on the platforms so I don't have to leave and re-enter the
barriered zone (and vice versa on my return)?

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:18:56 +0100,
Recliner wrote:
I'll be taking a train to Watford Junction next week using Oyster
pre-pay, and then continuing the journey on a charter train (paper
ticket) -- would I be correct in assuming that there are Oyster
validators on the platforms so I don't have to leave and re-enter the
barriered zone (and vice versa on my return)?

There are validators on platforms 1-4 DC line (I think - I almost never
use those platforms)
There is a validator on platform 9(&10) where the carpark entrance is.
And there are validators in the subway joining the platforms.

AFAIAA there are no validators on any of the other platforms.

But, you are correct, you do not have to exit and reenter the barriered
zone to touch.

Word of warnings - if you touch on a validator in the subway and then
decide to temporarily leave by the manual gate but touch again you'll
"reenter". (I found this out to my cost when the manual gate validator
had been broken for several days. I touched in the subway on my way out
but then was told to touch again on the manual gate - because it had
been repaired - and ended up with an unresolved journey)

(Dont know whay will happen if you touch in the subway and then leave by
the automatic barrier - presumably in that case it's intelligent enough
to realize that Exit-Exit is just a single exit, it's just
"Exit?Entry-Exit?Entry" where it gets confused.)

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Jun 18, 1:33*pm, Tim Woodall wrote:

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:18:56 +0100,
* * Recliner wrote: I'll be taking a train to Watford Junction next week using Oyster
pre-pay, and then continuing the journey on a charter train (paper
ticket) -- would I be correct in assuming that there are Oyster
validators on the platforms so I don't have to leave and re-enter the
barriered zone (and vice versa on my return)?

There are validators on platforms 1-4 DC line (I think - I almost never
use those platforms)

There are validators on the DC line platforms, yes.

There is a validator on platform 9(&10) where the carpark entrance is.
And there are validators in the subway joining the platforms.

AFAIAA there are no validators on any of the other platforms.

But, you are correct, you do not have to exit and reenter the barriered
zone to touch.

Word of warnings - if you touch on a validator in the subway and then
decide to temporarily leave by the manual gate but touch again you'll
"reenter". (I found this out to my cost when the manual gate validator
had been broken for several days. I touched in the subway on my way out
but then was told to touch again on the manual gate - because it had
been repaired - and ended up with an unresolved journey)

(Dont know what will happen if you touch in the subway and then leave by
the automatic barrier - presumably in that case it's intelligent enough
to realize that Exit-Exit is just a single exit, it's just
"Exit?Entry-Exit?Entry" where it gets confused.)

It should treat a touch on a standalone validator and then another one
on the gate as an exit, yes - this is how it works elsewhere (the
point being that the gates are definitively unidirectional - you're
either exiting the system or entering the system). Again, if you touch-
in on the gates then do so again on a standalone validator then it
should just treat them both as entries to the system.

N.B. The validator next to the manual gate (and possibly those next to
the car park) might be configured differently to the other standalone
validators - the validator at the manual gate providing a definitive
'hard' exit or entry to the system, whilst the other validators may
well be in 'interchange mode' and so just provide 'soft' entries and
exits, so you can touch on them as many times as possible with no ill-
effect. Err... that said, if that was the case then touching-out on
the validator in the subway then again on the reader next to the
manual gate shouldn't have caused a problem- not according to my logic
at least. Hmm.

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 06:28:01 -0700 (PDT),
Mizter T wrote:

On Jun 18, 1:33*pm, Tim Woodall wrote:

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:18:56 +0100,
* * Recliner wrote: I'll be taking a train to Watford Junction next week using Oyster
pre-pay, and then continuing the journey on a charter train (paper
ticket) -- would I be correct in assuming that there are Oyster
validators on the platforms so I don't have to leave and re-enter the
barriered zone (and vice versa on my return)?

There are validators on platforms 1-4 DC line (I think - I almost never
use those platforms)

There are validators on the DC line platforms, yes.

Yes. I'm 99% certain there are some there but I could be imagining
things. I can never think of any circumstance where they would make
sense for me to use therefore, while I'm pretty sure I've seen them I've
not made a mental note "that is where they are"

Word of warnings - if you touch on a validator in the subway and then
decide to temporarily leave by the manual gate but touch again you'll
"reenter". (I found this out to my cost when the manual gate validator
had been broken for several days. I touched in the subway on my way out
but then was told to touch again on the manual gate - because it had
been repaired - and ended up with an unresolved journey)

(Dont know what will happen if you touch in the subway and then leave by
the automatic barrier - presumably in that case it's intelligent enough
to realize that Exit-Exit is just a single exit, it's just
"Exit?Entry-Exit?Entry" where it gets confused.)

It should treat a touch on a standalone validator and then another one
on the gate as an exit, yes - this is how it works elsewhere (the
point being that the gates are definitively unidirectional - you're
either exiting the system or entering the system). Again, if you touch-
in on the gates then do so again on a standalone validator then it
should just treat them both as entries to the system.

N.B. The validator next to the manual gate (and possibly those next to
the car park) might be configured differently to the other standalone
validators - the validator at the manual gate providing a definitive
'hard' exit or entry to the system, whilst the other validators may
well be in 'interchange mode' and so just provide 'soft' entries and
exits, so you can touch on them as many times as possible with no ill-
effect. Err... that said, if that was the case then touching-out on
the validator in the subway then again on the reader next to the
manual gate shouldn't have caused a problem- not according to my logic
at least. Hmm.
I've no idea how it is configured, and I'd assumed that two touches, on
in the subway followed by one on the manual gate would be an exit. You
cannot touch multiple times on the manual gate and have it register an
entry then an exit or vice-versa because I tried to immediately touch
out again but I couldn't (I suspect I could have touched on one of the
barriered gates)

Here's my Journey history (of course things might well have changed now)

09/04/08 19:57 Watford Junction Entry - £3.00 £20.40
19:56 Watford Junction Exit £2.00 £23.40
19:27 Euston NR Entry - £5.00 £21.40

The exit plus entry didn't even count as a continuation of my journey as
it charged me another three pounds. (I did actually reclaim this and I
got it credited back but usually I cannot be bothered to reclaim when
things go wrong)

I'm surprised it's configured like this because it seems to allow an
easy fraud for people coming in on the St-Albans line. Touch "in" in the
subway and then "out" at the gate and (I think) it's 1.00. Similar will
(presumably) apply for peak hour journeys into Euston where the barriers
are now open.[1] (This is the only time I've ever touched on more than
one validator so I've got no data for what happens in other cases)

Tim.

[1] I suspect I've actually seen this happen because sometimes people
walking the same way as me touched on the validator at the bottom of the
stairs. It could, of course, have been a genuine misunderstanding or
they could have come in on the StAlbans line and then gone up to the
ticket window inside the barrier line before going to the platform.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Jun 18, 3:16*pm, Tim Woodall wrote:

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 06:28:01 -0700 (PDT),
* * Mizter T wrote:

On Jun 18, 1:33*pm, Tim Woodall wrote:

[snip]

There are validators on platforms 1-4 DC line (I think - I almost never
use those platforms)

There are validators on the DC line platforms, yes.

Yes. I'm 99% certain there are some there but I could be imagining
things. I can never think of any circumstance where they would make
sense for me to use therefore, while I'm pretty sure I've seen them I've
not made a mental note "that is where they are"

My comment was a statement as opposed to a question - there are
definitely validators on teh DC line platforms next to the buffer
stops.


Word of warnings - if you touch on a validator in the subway and then
decide to temporarily leave by the manual gate but touch again you'll
"reenter". (I found this out to my cost when the manual gate validator
had been broken for several days. I touched in the subway on my way out
but then was told to touch again on the manual gate - because it had
been repaired - and ended up with an unresolved journey)

(Dont know what will happen if you touch in the subway and then leave by
the automatic barrier - presumably in that case it's intelligent enough
to realize that Exit-Exit is just a single exit, it's just
"Exit?Entry-Exit?Entry" where it gets confused.)

It should treat a touch on a standalone validator and then another one
on the gate as an exit, yes - this is how it works elsewhere (the
point being that the gates are definitively unidirectional - you're
either exiting the system or entering the system). Again, if you touch-
in on the gates then do so again on a standalone validator then it
should just treat them both as entries to the system.

N.B. The validator next to the manual gate (and possibly those next to
the car park) might be configured differently to the other standalone
validators - the validator at the manual gate providing a definitive
'hard' exit or entry to the system, whilst the other validators may
well be in 'interchange mode' and so just provide 'soft' entries and
exits, so you can touch on them as many times as possible with no ill-
effect. Err... that said, if that was the case then touching-out on
the validator in the subway then again on the reader next to the
manual gate shouldn't have caused a problem- not according to my logic
at least. Hmm.

I've no idea how it is configured, and I'd assumed that two touches, on
in the subway followed by one on the manual gate would be an exit. You
cannot touch multiple times on the manual gate and have it register an
entry then an exit or vice-versa because I tried to immediately touch
out again but I couldn't (I suspect I could have touched on one of the
barriered gates)

Worth noting that the gates will only enter you into or exit you from
the system as appropriate depending upon which direction they're set
in (obvious point but worth saying all the same). From what you say,
it's hard to fathom out how it's all configured at Watford Jn.


Here's my Journey history (of course things might well have changed now)

* * *09/04/08 19:57 Watford Junction Entry * * * - £3.00 £20.40
* * * * * * * 19:56 Watford Junction Exit * * * * *£2.00 £23.40
* * * * * * * 19:27 Euston NR * * * *Entry * * * - £5.00 £21.40

The exit plus entry didn't even count as a continuation of my journey as
it charged me another three pounds. (I did actually reclaim this and I
got it credited back but usually I cannot be bothered to reclaim when
things go wrong)

Why only £3 though? Surely it should be £4 for the 'entry charge' (or
£5 if that's the 'entry charge' at WJ)... hmm, I'm a bit puzzled.
Unless... unless the 'entry charge' system doesn't apply at WJ, reason
being because you might end up at a platform at Euston where there's
no Oyster reader.

This is exactly how things were configured at Finsbury Park, where
trains into KX could end up at any platform and until very recently
there were no standalone Oyster readers that passengers could make use
of to finish their journey - thus if you touched in at Finsbury Park
and didn't touch-out you'd be charged the zones 1&2 fare of £2.20/peak
or £1.60/off-peak (and I don't thin it wreck the capping either) - I
presume that now the Oyster readers at KX have gone live this
arrangement no longer applies.


I'm surprised it's configured like this because it seems to allow an
easy fraud for people coming in on the St-Albans line. Touch "in" in the
subway and then "out" at the gate and (I think) it's 1.00. Similar will
(presumably) apply for peak hour journeys into Euston where the barriers
are now open.[1] (This is the only time I've ever touched on more than
one validator so I've got no data for what happens in other cases)

Hmm, interesting. The way it normally appears to work at gated
stations is that if you enter the station and then exit it again
(without having travelled) you're charged the minimum fare from that
station. However I would have thought that the system at stations such
as WJ would be designed with such a fraud as that which you speculate
on in mind (and it's worth noting that your comments are just
speculation).

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:09:45 -0700 (PDT),
Mizter T wrote:

Here's my Journey history (of course things might well have changed now)

* * *09/04/08 19:57 Watford Junction Entry * * * - £3.00 £20.40
* * * * * * * 19:56 Watford Junction Exit * * * * *£2.00 £23.40
* * * * * * * 19:27 Euston NR * * * *Entry * * * - £5.00 £21.40

The exit plus entry didn't even count as a continuation of my journey as
it charged me another three pounds. (I did actually reclaim this and I
got it credited back but usually I cannot be bothered to reclaim when
things go wrong)

Why only £3 though? Surely it should be £4 for the 'entry charge' (or
£5 if that's the 'entry charge' at WJ)... hmm, I'm a bit puzzled.
Unless... unless the 'entry charge' system doesn't apply at WJ, reason
being because you might end up at a platform at Euston where there's
no Oyster reader.

At that time of night then the maximum fare when entering at WJ was 3GBP
which would take you to Euston. IIRC the maximum possible fare was 3.50.

I'm surprised it's configured like this because it seems to allow an
easy fraud for people coming in on the St-Albans line. Touch "in" in the
subway and then "out" at the gate and (I think) it's 1.00. Similar will
(presumably) apply for peak hour journeys into Euston where the barriers
are now open.[1] (This is the only time I've ever touched on more than
one validator so I've got no data for what happens in other cases)

Hmm, interesting. The way it normally appears to work at gated
stations is that if you enter the station and then exit it again
(without having travelled) you're charged the minimum fare from that
station. However I would have thought that the system at stations such
as WJ would be designed with such a fraud as that which you speculate
on in mind (and it's worth noting that your comments are just
speculation).

Indeed, purely speculation. But I think the whole in/out is complicated
by the fact that the StAlbans line is non oyster (I think) but arrives
into Watford Junction on the hot[1] side of the barrier. So the subway
validators have to be able to handle in (St Albans to London) and out
(changing from DC to head North)

[1] I know there's a proper term for this but it escapes me.

And as my minor bit of excitement tonight. After a little too much to
drink my train arrived at Watford Junction. I was standing by the door
waiting for the "ping". Ping happened, I pushed the button ... nothing.
Pushed again ... nothing. Looked down, no lights. Looked across the
train - there's the button lit up. Goodness, I'm more drunk than I
thought. Cross the train, push the button, doors open onto a Virgin
train. I'm not so drunk that I'm going to try and get off like that so I
cross back and hope that the doors will open before the train departs.
"Ping". Open the other door, so now I've got both doors open. Get out.
"Beep, beep, beep" the wrong doors close and then the other doors close
and the train departs. I did remember hearing once of a blind person who
was injured when he got out of a train on the wrong side when it came
into a very unusual platform at his normal station but that's the first
time I've ever seen this happen in a modern train.

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:21:44 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall
wrote:

"Beep, beep, beep" the wrong doors close and then the other doors close
and the train departs. I did remember hearing once of a blind person who
was injured when he got out of a train on the wrong side when it came
into a very unusual platform at his normal station but that's the first
time I've ever seen this happen in a modern train.

On LM?

Very surprising, given that there are guards (who would go to the
correct side of the train to do the release), and given that the
platforms are on the same side all the way from H&W to Bletchley
inclusive...

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:44:33 GMT,
Neil Williams wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:21:44 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall
wrote:

"Beep, beep, beep" the wrong doors close and then the other doors close
and the train departs. I did remember hearing once of a blind person who
was injured when he got out of a train on the wrong side when it came
into a very unusual platform at his normal station but that's the first
time I've ever seen this happen in a modern train.

On LM?

Yes.

Very surprising, given that there are guards (who would go to the
correct side of the train to do the release), and given that the
platforms are on the same side all the way from H&W to Bletchley
inclusive...

It was the 22:54 departure from Euston.

At that time of night the trains sometimes come in on the "wrong"
platform. I'm sure there is, or used to be, a train that terminates at
WJ that comes in on platform 9.

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Jun 20, 11:25*pm, Tim Woodall wrote:
On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:44:33 GMT,
* * Neil Williams wrote: On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:21:44 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall
wrote:

"Beep, beep, beep" the wrong doors close and then the other doors close
and the train departs. I did remember hearing once of a blind person who
was injured when he got out of a train on the wrong side when it came
into a very unusual platform at his normal station but that's the first
time I've ever seen this happen in a modern train.

On LM?

Yes.

Very surprising, given that there are guards (who would go to the
correct side of the train to do the release), and given that the
platforms are on the same side all the way from H&W to Bletchley
inclusive...

It was the 22:54 departure from Euston.

At that time of night the trains sometimes come in on the "wrong"
platform. I'm sure there is, or used to be, a train that terminates at
WJ that comes in on platform 9.


Yes, Watford Junction platform 9 is reversibly signalled and is used
occasionally by trains heading north. The normal Up platform at Tring
(platform 5) is also on the 'wrong' side since remodelling, the other
side of the island (platform 4) is generally used for the terminators.

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Sun, 21 Jun 2009 13:22:02 -0700 (PDT), Andy

Yes, Watford Junction platform 9 is reversibly signalled and is used
occasionally by trains heading north.

Thinking about it, I have experienced this *once* - and because I
didn't realise the above was the case, I was expecting an announcement
saying we'd be terminating short.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Jun 19, 12:21*am, Tim Woodall wrote:

And as my minor bit of excitement tonight. After a little too much to
drink my train arrived at Watford Junction.

[snip]

Ah, a drunken train, there's your problem...

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

"Tim Woodall" wrote in message
e.uk
On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:18:56 +0100,
Recliner wrote:
I'll be taking a train to Watford Junction next week using Oyster
pre-pay, and then continuing the journey on a charter train (paper
ticket) -- would I be correct in assuming that there are Oyster
validators on the platforms so I don't have to leave and re-enter the
barriered zone (and vice versa on my return)?

There are validators on platforms 1-4 DC line (I think - I almost
never use those platforms)
There is a validator on platform 9(&10) where the carpark entrance is.
And there are validators in the subway joining the platforms.

AFAIAA there are no validators on any of the other platforms.

Yes, I did the journey yesterday, and that's exactly what I found. It
was very slightly annoying to arrive and depart from platform 7, and
have to go down to the subway to touch out. As I had ample time, it
wasn't a problem. On the return, I had to go through the subway anyway,
as one train arrived at platform 6 and the other departed from 8.

The station seemed to be messed up, however, last night, as the fast
platforms (and lines, presumably) were closed from 21:50, and the
screens on the other platforms were showing the wrong trains. The first
possible train I could catch seemed to have disappeared altogether, and
the next wasn't shown on the screens. It still turned up, dead on time,
despite being announced as delayed. To add to the confusion, it was a
Southern service, being operated by an LM train. Yes, I know about the
loan of trains from LM to Southern, and why, but it could easily confuse
pax to see the wrong route maps in the cars.

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Jun 24, 12:26*pm, "Recliner" wrote:

"Tim Woodall" wrote:

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:18:56 +0100,
* Recliner wrote:
I'll be taking a train to Watford Junction next week using Oyster
pre-pay, and then continuing the journey on a charter train (paper
ticket) -- would I be correct in assuming that there are Oyster
validators on the platforms so I don't have to leave and re-enter the
barriered zone (and vice versa on my return)?

There are validators on platforms 1-4 DC line (I think - I almost
never use those platforms)
There is a validator on platform 9(&10) where the carpark entrance is.
And there are validators in the subway joining the platforms.

AFAIAA there are no validators on any of the other platforms.

Yes, I did the journey yesterday, and that's exactly what I found. It
was very slightly annoying to arrive and depart from platform 7, and
have to go down to the subway to touch out. As I had ample time, it
wasn't a problem. On the return, I had to go through the subway anyway,
as one train arrived at platform 6 and the other departed from 8.

Though I think it'd be fair to assume the number of people arriving at
WJ from points south using Oyster PAYG and then changing there for
another train (or v.v.) is pretty limited.


The station seemed to be messed up, however, last night, as the fast
platforms (and lines, presumably) were closed from 21:50, and the
screens on the other platforms were showing the wrong trains. The first
possible train I could catch seemed to have disappeared altogether, and
the next wasn't shown on the screens. It still turned up, dead on time,
despite being announced as delayed. To add to the confusion, it was a
Southern service, being operated by an LM train. Yes, I know about the
loan of trains from LM to Southern, and why, but it could easily confuse
pax to see the wrong route maps in the cars.

The LM trains on loan to Southern still have LM route maps in them
then? If so (what you say isn't entirely clear), then that's a bit
shabby. Though are the units on loan to Southern fixed, or do they
rotate (for maintenance purposes etc)?

And does anyone have any idea how much longer this situation will
persist - and yes, I know it's dependent on deliveries of new
Electrostars to FCC, so I suppose my question is when will FCC have
enough new Electrostars up and running?

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

The LM trains on loan to Southern still have LM route maps in them
then? If so (what you say isn't entirely clear), then that's a bit
shabby. Though are the units on loan to Southern fixed, or do they
rotate (for maintenance purposes etc)?

They must be fixed, surely? They had to fit shoegear which only applies to
the units loaned to Southern.

And does anyone have any idea how much longer this situation will
persist - and yes, I know it's dependent on deliveries of new
Electrostars to FCC, so I suppose my question is when will FCC have
enough new Electrostars up and running?

Have they stopped sending them back for rectification yet?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On 24 June, 13:00, Mizter T wrote:
The LM trains on loan to Southern still have LM route maps in them
then?

Absolutely. All stops to Liverpool.

And does anyone have any idea how much longer this situation will
persist - and yes, I know it's dependent on deliveries of new
Electrostars to FCC, so I suppose my question is when will FCC have
enough new Electrostars up and running?

They're due to get 23 of their own, currently have 5-ish, and the
*ambition* for delivery is 1 a week. So the timescale is measured in
months.

However, they only have a handful of trains from Southern, and I
believe returning them is the first priority as the new deliveries
come in (ahead of expanding FCC's total fleet, or returning 317s and
465s), so potentially Southern services could be back to normal in the
next month or two.

U

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

"Mr Thant" wrote in message

On 24 June, 13:00, Mizter T wrote:
The LM trains on loan to Southern still have LM route maps in them
then?

Absolutely. All stops to Liverpool.

Or, as in this case, a train to Clapham Junction, with route maps
showing Euston but no sign of the West London line or CJ.

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Jun 24, 1:31*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 24 June, 13:00, Mizter T wrote:

The LM trains on loan to Southern still have LM route maps in them
then?

Absolutely. All stops to Liverpool.

Rather less than ideal. Still, at least the on-train PIS has been
programmed to display that it's a "Southern" service.


And does anyone have any idea how much longer this situation will
persist - and yes, I know it's dependent on deliveries of new
Electrostars to FCC, so I suppose my question is when will FCC have
enough new Electrostars up and running?

They're due to get 23 of their own, currently have 5-ish, and the
*ambition* for delivery is 1 a week. So the timescale is measured in
months.

However, they only have a handful of trains from Southern, and I
believe returning them is the first priority as the new deliveries
come in (ahead of expanding FCC's total fleet, or returning 317s and
465s), so potentially Southern services could be back to normal in the
next month or two.

Thanks for the info.

Anyone have any idea how many of the Southern WLL services are
currently operated by the LM 350 Desiros now - all of them, or just
some?

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 05:52:14 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:

Anyone have any idea how many of the Southern WLL services are
currently operated by the LM 350 Desiros now - all of them, or just
some?

Just some, though I don't know what proportion. I have seen
Electrostars on them recently.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Jun 24, 1:22*pm, wrote:
In article
,

(Mizter T) wrote:
The LM trains on loan to Southern still have LM route maps in them
then? If so (what you say isn't entirely clear), then that's a bit
shabby. Though are the units on loan to Southern fixed, or do they
rotate (for maintenance purposes etc)?

They must be fixed, surely? They had to fit shoegear which only applies to
the units loaned to Southern.


They're not fixed, as there are at least 10 units with shoegear and
the 'spares' still operate LM services. There is an ECS diagram to/
from Selhurst to swap units over for maintenance.

And does anyone have any idea how much longer this situation will
persist - and yes, I know it's dependent on deliveries of new
Electrostars to FCC, so I suppose my question is when will FCC have
enough new Electrostars up and running?

Have they stopped sending them back for rectification yet?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Jun 24, 2:06*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 05:52:14 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T

wrote:
Anyone have any idea how many of the Southern WLL services are
currently operated by the LM 350 Desiros now - all of them, or just
some?

Just some, though I don't know what proportion. *I have seen
Electrostars on them recently.


Sunday services have always been Electrostars. I've not seen a weekday
service that's not a 350 since they were introduced. I think that
Saturdays have a mix of units.

Don't forget that the new 377/5 units undergo their AC commissioning
on the WCML, often with a 377/2, before Southern hand the units to
FCC; as the 377/5s are only subleased from Southern to FCC. So 377s
still appear on the WCML.

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

In article
,
(Andy) wrote:

On Jun 24, 1:22*pm, wrote:
In article
,

(Mizter T) wrote:
The LM trains on loan to Southern still have LM route maps in them
then? If so (what you say isn't entirely clear), then that's a bit
shabby. Though are the units on loan to Southern fixed, or do they
rotate (for maintenance purposes etc)?

They must be fixed, surely? They had to fit shoegear which only
applies to the units loaned to Southern.

They're not fixed, as there are at least 10 units with shoegear and
the 'spares' still operate LM services. There is an ECS diagram to/
from Selhurst to swap units over for maintenance.

So, only a small subset of the LM fleet but enough to come and go between
LM and Southern for maintenance. Most of the LM Desiro fleet don't have
shoegear, surely?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On 24 June, 13:00, Mizter T wrote:
The LM trains on loan to Southern still have LM route maps in them
then? If so (what you say isn't entirely clear), then that's a bit
shabby. Though are the units on loan to Southern fixed, or do they
rotate (for maintenance purposes etc)?

Rumour has it they're not maintained at all. In any case they'd have
to be sent up to Northampton ECS.

I've only ever seen a 350/1 during the week, as mentioned in the past
350/2 would be much more appropiate in the peak (16:54 and 18:54 from
SPB north are no seats available until HRW. 17:54 and you're lucky to
get on the train.

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

wrote in message
...
In article
,
(Andy) wrote:

On Jun 24, 1:22 pm, wrote:
In article
,

(Mizter T) wrote:
The LM trains on loan to Southern still have LM route maps in them
then? If so (what you say isn't entirely clear), then that's a bit
shabby. Though are the units on loan to Southern fixed, or do they
rotate (for maintenance purposes etc)?

They must be fixed, surely? They had to fit shoegear which only
applies to the units loaned to Southern.

They're not fixed, as there are at least 10 units with shoegear and
the 'spares' still operate LM services. There is an ECS diagram to/
from Selhurst to swap units over for maintenance.

So, only a small subset of the LM fleet but enough to come and go between
LM and Southern for maintenance. Most of the LM Desiro fleet don't have
shoegear, surely?


All the 350/1s already had shoegear fitted, but the actual shoes - the
'wearing part' had apparently been removed AIUI. But the shoe arm itself
isn't usually visible, as it rotates upwards (pivoted at the inboard end)
behind the shoebeam, whenever the pantograph is up. The edge of the shoe is
only just visible when raised, so you'd probably not realise it was there if
the unit was at speed on AC supplies. I photographed a WLL service during
layover at Milton Keynes last week with my phone camera - in the ambient
light conditions the shoe was visible to the eye, but didn't come out on the
picture...

Also, about 15 units have appeared on the WLL service so far - so with only
4 out of 15 at a time needing SN maps, you can see why they haven't bothered
changing them.

Paul S

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article
,
(Andy) wrote:

On Jun 24, 1:22 pm, wrote:
In article
,

(Mizter T) wrote:
The LM trains on loan to Southern still have LM route maps in
them then? If so (what you say isn't entirely clear), then
that's a bit shabby. Though are the units on loan to Southern
fixed, or do they rotate (for maintenance purposes etc)?

They must be fixed, surely? They had to fit shoegear which only
applies to the units loaned to Southern.

They're not fixed, as there are at least 10 units with shoegear and
the 'spares' still operate LM services. There is an ECS diagram to/
from Selhurst to swap units over for maintenance.

So, only a small subset of the LM fleet but enough to come and go
between LM and Southern for maintenance. Most of the LM Desiro fleet
don't have shoegear, surely?

All the 350/1s already had shoegear fitted, but the actual shoes -
the 'wearing part' had apparently been removed AIUI. But the shoe
arm itself isn't usually visible, as it rotates upwards (pivoted at
the inboard end) behind the shoebeam, whenever the pantograph is
up. The edge of the shoe is only just visible when raised, so you'd
probably not realise it was there if the unit was at speed on AC
supplies. I photographed a WLL service during layover at Milton
Keynes last week with my phone camera - in the ambient light
conditions the shoe was visible to the eye, but didn't come out on
the picture...

Also, about 15 units have appeared on the WLL service so far - so
with only 4 out of 15 at a time needing SN maps, you can see why
they haven't bothered changing them.

OIC. I didn't realise how much had been done towards DC equipping the LM
Desiros. Why, AAMOI?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Jun 25, 6:50*pm, wrote:
In article ,





(Paul Scott) wrote:
wrote in message
m...
In article
,
(Andy) wrote:

On Jun 24, 1:22 pm, wrote:
In article
,

(Mizter T) wrote:
The LM trains on loan to Southern still have LM route maps in
them then? If so (what you say isn't entirely clear), then
that's a bit shabby. Though are the units on loan to Southern
fixed, or do they rotate (for maintenance purposes etc)?

They must be fixed, surely? They had to fit shoegear which only
applies to the units loaned to Southern.

They're not fixed, as there are at least 10 units with shoegear and
the 'spares' still operate LM services. There is an ECS diagram to/
from Selhurst to swap units over for maintenance.

So, only a small subset of the LM fleet but enough to come and go
between LM and Southern for maintenance. Most of the LM Desiro fleet
don't have shoegear, surely?

All the 350/1s already had shoegear fitted, but the actual shoes -
the 'wearing part' had apparently been removed AIUI. *But the shoe
arm itself isn't usually visible, as it rotates upwards (pivoted at
the inboard end) behind the shoebeam, whenever the pantograph is
up. The edge of the shoe is only just visible when raised, so you'd
probably not realise it was there if the unit was at speed on AC
supplies. *I photographed a WLL service during layover at Milton
Keynes last week with my phone camera - in the ambient light
conditions the shoe was visible to the eye, but didn't come out on
the picture...

Also, about 15 units have appeared on the WLL service so far - so
with only 4 out of 15 at a time needing SN maps, you can see why
they haven't bothered changing them.

OIC. I didn't realise how much had been done towards DC equipping the LM
Desiros. Why, AAMOI?


Because the units were originally specified as 5 car 450s and this was
changed to 350s when DfT decided that Silverlink / Central trains
needed them more than SWT. As 450s, they would have had the shoegear
and so this was retained when the order was altered. All the 350/1
units have had the capability from the delivery, even if the shoes are
in storage.

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Jun 25, 10:10*am, Paul Weaver wrote:
On 24 June, 13:00, Mizter T wrote:

The LM trains on loan to Southern still have LM route maps in them
then? If so (what you say isn't entirely clear), then that's a bit
shabby. Though are the units on loan to Southern fixed, or do they
rotate (for maintenance purposes etc)?

Rumour has it they're not maintained at all. In any case they'd have
to be sent up to Northampton ECS.

I've only ever seen a 350/1 during the week, as mentioned in the past
350/2 would be much more appropiate in the peak (16:54 and 18:54 from
SPB north are no seats available until HRW. 17:54 and you're lucky to
get on the train.

The 350/2s don't have the necessary shoegear though, as they were
built with only the AC equipment on board, unlike the 350/1 order
which were a change to the original 5 car 450s ordered for SWT, but
diverted to Silverlink / Central trains.

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:50:48 -0500,
wrote:

OIC. I didn't realise how much had been done towards DC equipping the LM
Desiros. Why, AAMOI?

It was more that they had things done to AC equip them - they
originated from an order that was planned to go to South West Trains
and were redirected after some sort of funding issue.

The 350/2s, having been ordered for LM to start with, don't have
shoegear of any sort.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:50:48 -0500,
wrote:

OIC. I didn't realise how much had been done towards DC equipping the
LM Desiros. Why, AAMOI?

It was more that they had things done to AC equip them - they
originated from an order that was planned to go to South West Trains
and were redirected after some sort of funding issue.

Oh, yes, I should have remembered that shuffle. What I didn't realise was
how far down the line the build had got such that such things were
included.

The 350/2s, having been ordered for LM to start with, don't have
shoegear of any sort.

But some have now been equipped for use on Southern?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 18:40:38 -0500,
wrote:

The 350/2s, having been ordered for LM to start with, don't have
shoegear of any sort.

But some have now been equipped for use on Southern?

No. Only 350/1s are used by Southern.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 18:40:38 -0500,
wrote:

The 350/2s, having been ordered for LM to start with, don't have
shoegear of any sort.

But some have now been equipped for use on Southern?

No. Only 350/1s are used by Southern.

Ah! My confusion then. So why the suggestion that only some are converted
to be suitable for that role?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 18:40:38 -0500,
wrote:

The 350/2s, having been ordered for LM to start with, don't have
shoegear of any sort.

But some have now been equipped for use on Southern?

No. Only 350/1s are used by Southern.

Ah! My confusion then. So why the suggestion that only some are converted
to be suitable for that role?


Only a subset of the 350/1s have been made ready and depot tested for DC
use, about 15 AIUI, out of the 30 in total. The 50% that do not have the OK
to work on DC wouldn't need a significant amount of work to do so. However
the whole sub class (350/1) is type cleared for DC running, the use by SN
only required route clearance.

For the 350/2s DC use would not be possible without significant additional
equipment being added.

Paul

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

Only a subset of the 350/1s have been made ready and depot tested
for DC use, about 15 AIUI, out of the 30 in total. The 50% that do
not have the OK to work on DC wouldn't need a significant amount of
work to do so. However the whole sub class (350/1) is type cleared
for DC running, the use by SN only required route clearance.

Thanks for clarifying that.

For the 350/2s DC use would not be possible without significant
additional equipment being added.

What equipment? Just shoegear and DC fuses/circuit breakers etc, surely?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

Watford Junction Oyster validators
 

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

wrote:
In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

Only a subset of the 350/1s have been made ready and depot tested
for DC use, about 15 AIUI, out of the 30 in total. The 50% that do
not have the OK to work on DC wouldn't need a significant amount of
work to do so. However the whole sub class (350/1) is type cleared
for DC running, the use by SN only required route clearance.

Thanks for clarifying that.

For the 350/2s DC use would not be possible without significant
additional equipment being added.

What equipment? Just shoegear and DC fuses/circuit breakers etc,
surely?

It is still a reasonably significant amount of external hardware
across a 37 unit fleet, with 8 sets of shoe gear each.

That's 8 shoes each? Presumably 2 each side and each end of each driving
car? Just to be sure what you're counting as shoegear.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Watford Junction Oyster validators