On Jun 18, 7:06*pm, MIG wrote:

On 18 June, 17:44, Mizter T wrote:

On Jun 18, 5:08*pm, Tom Barry wrote:

[snip]

The example I'd toss out would be Chiswick-Brentford (SWT), Chiswick
Park-Boston Manor (Tube) and Acton Main Line-Hanwell (FGW), all Z3-Z4
trips over broadly similar distances (2, 4 and 3 stops respectively). *I
know the first one is £2.10, the second is £1.10 and I'm pretty sure the
third is £1.10 as well, although I'm open to correction. *Can anyone
confirm; are the existing National Rail PAYG schemes all on the Tube
fare scale even when you aren't going between Tube stations?

[The £2.10 Chiswick-Brentford fare being the paper rail fare]

Yes - all the existing NR PAYG schemes are all on the LU farescale,
even if you don't go anywhere near an LU station. As I ponder above,
the question is whether they'll stay that way.

Would any interavailability agreement override that option?

Yes, I would think ticket interavailability trumps all else.

By the by, it's a bit of an uneven thing, this ticketing
interavailability stuff - for example the TOCs have to fall into line
and charge £4 single cash fares when there's interavailability with
LU. This already leads to some ambiguities - e.g. from White Hart
Lane, Bruce Grove and Norhumberland Park (all zone 3 stations), a
single rail fare to Liverpool Street is £3.10 (as per the zonally
priced NR farescale), and from Wood Street (zone 4) it costs £3.70 -
however from Seven Sisters, Tottenham Hale and Walthamstow Central
it's £4 as NXEA has to fall into line with LU's fares. Of course the
answer is simply to use Oyster PAYG from the latter three stations and
pay £270/peak or £2.20/off-peak.

And, just to make things more interesting, the Off-peak Day Return
(aka CDR) fare from Seven Sisters, Tottenham Hale and Walthamstow
Central is £4.10 - why? Because this is the fare for a CDR from zone 3
to zone 1 according to the pan-London NR farescale! So paper fares
from these stations actually utilise both farescales. (This is all
according to NRE.)

However, for reasons unknown, there are no return fares showing for
Stratford to Liverpool Street - which on interavailability terms I
would have thought is basically the same as the three Tottenham/
Walthamstow way stations. Perhaps the crucial difference is simply
that the Central line directly links Stratford to Liverpool Street
too, whereas one wouldn't use the Tube to get from the Tottenham/
Walthamstow stations to Liverpool Street.


Another thought: does any current PAYG acceptance incorporate an
interavailability agreement, but future PAYG maybe being negotiated in
a different way?

Errr... maybe! (A translation of which is "search me, I dunno!")

On 18 June, 21:16, Mizter T wrote:
On Jun 18, 7:06*pm, MIG wrote:





On 18 June, 17:44, Mizter T wrote:

On Jun 18, 5:08*pm, Tom Barry wrote:

[snip]

The example I'd toss out would be Chiswick-Brentford (SWT), Chiswick
Park-Boston Manor (Tube) and Acton Main Line-Hanwell (FGW), all Z3-Z4
trips over broadly similar distances (2, 4 and 3 stops respectively). *I
know the first one is £2.10, the second is £1.10 and I'm pretty sure the
third is £1.10 as well, although I'm open to correction. *Can anyone
confirm; are the existing National Rail PAYG schemes all on the Tube
fare scale even when you aren't going between Tube stations?

[The £2.10 Chiswick-Brentford fare being the paper rail fare]

Yes - all the existing NR PAYG schemes are all on the LU farescale,
even if you don't go anywhere near an LU station. As I ponder above,
the question is whether they'll stay that way.

Would any interavailability agreement override that option?

Yes, I would think ticket interavailability trumps all else.

By the by, it's a bit of an uneven thing, this ticketing
interavailability stuff - for example the TOCs have to fall into line
and charge £4 single cash fares when there's interavailability with
LU. This already leads to some ambiguities - e.g. from White Hart
Lane, Bruce Grove and Norhumberland Park (all zone 3 stations), a
single rail fare to Liverpool Street is £3.10 (as per the zonally
priced NR farescale), and from Wood Street (zone 4) it costs £3.70 -
however from Seven Sisters, Tottenham Hale and Walthamstow Central
it's £4 as NXEA has to fall into line with LU's fares. Of course the
answer is simply to use Oyster PAYG from the latter three stations and
pay £270/peak or £2.20/off-peak.

And, just to make things more interesting, the Off-peak Day Return
(aka CDR) fare from Seven Sisters, Tottenham Hale and Walthamstow
Central is £4.10 - why? Because this is the fare for a CDR from zone 3
to zone 1 according to the pan-London NR farescale! So paper fares
from these stations actually utilise both farescales. (This is all
according to NRE.)

I guess all these have a single ticket office, which can't issue a
single less than £4 for the journey because they can't tell which way
you'd go.

It doesn't mean that NR cash fares will necessarily go up at non-
interchange stations when PAYG is introduced, but it's a worrying
thought that the cash fare might go up to the NR zone 1 - 6 fare.


However, for reasons unknown, there are no return fares showing for
Stratford to Liverpool Street - which on interavailability terms I
would have thought is basically the same as the three Tottenham/
Walthamstow way stations. Perhaps the crucial difference is simply
that the Central line directly links Stratford to Liverpool Street
too, whereas one wouldn't use the Tube to get from the Tottenham/
Walthamstow stations to Liverpool Street.

I just tried Barking to West Ham, and it offered £3.20 single and
£6.40 return (same day), so instead of confirming what happens where
the route is shared, it come up with something completely different.
Oh well.


Another thought: does any current PAYG acceptance incorporate an
interavailability agreement, but future PAYG maybe being negotiated in
a different way?

Errr... maybe! (A translation of which is "search me, I dunno!")- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On 18 June, 21:16, Mizter T wrote:

However, for reasons unknown, there are no return fares showing for
Stratford to Liverpool Street - which on interavailability terms I
would have thought is basically the same as the three Tottenham/
Walthamstow way stations. Perhaps the crucial difference is simply
that the Central line directly links Stratford to Liverpool Street
too, whereas one wouldn't use the Tube to get from the Tottenham/
Walthamstow stations to Liverpool Street.
My Avantix Traveller NFM03 shows Stratford to London Terminals fares
and available tickets the same as for Walthamstow Central to London
Terminals - with the addition of a First Class Single at £6 and Return
at £12, although I don't expect they sell many of them!

On Jun 18, 10:17*pm, Brian A60K wrote:

On 18 June, 21:16, Mizter T wrote:

However, for reasons unknown, there are no return fares showing for
Stratford to Liverpool Street - which on interavailability terms I
would have thought is basically the same as the three Tottenham/
Walthamstow way stations. Perhaps the crucial difference is simply
that the Central line directly links Stratford to Liverpool Street
too, whereas one wouldn't use the Tube to get from the Tottenham/
Walthamstow stations to Liverpool Street.

My Avantix Traveller NFM03 shows Stratford to London Terminals fares
and available tickets the same as for Walthamstow Central to London
Terminals - with the addition of a First Class Single at £6 and Return
at £12, although I don't expect they sell many of them!

OK, thanks - I should get myself a copy of that. So all my conjecture
is explained by a glitch in the NRE journey planner! So just to be
clear, that's £4 for a single and £4.10 for a return for Stratford to
Liverpool Street.

I wonder if one really would be sold a £4.10 return from the LU ticket
office at Stratford, or even if they can sell one? Likewise, would the
NXEA ticket office sell the correct £4.10 ticket if one asked for it?
Sure, if I wanted to know enough and was willing to donate my cash to
public transport operators then I could go and try buying them myself!

On Jun 18, 9:56*pm, MIG wrote:

On 18 June, 21:16, Mizter T wrote:

On Jun 18, 7:06*pm, MIG wrote:

[big snip]

Would any interavailability agreement override that option?

Yes, I would think ticket interavailability trumps all else.

By the by, it's a bit of an uneven thing, this ticketing
interavailability stuff - for example the TOCs have to fall into line
and charge £4 single cash fares when there's interavailability with
LU. This already leads to some ambiguities - e.g. from White Hart
Lane, Bruce Grove and Norhumberland Park (all zone 3 stations), a
single rail fare to Liverpool Street is £3.10 (as per the zonally
priced NR farescale), and from Wood Street (zone 4) it costs £3.70 -
however from Seven Sisters, Tottenham Hale and Walthamstow Central
it's £4 as NXEA has to fall into line with LU's fares. Of course the
answer is simply to use Oyster PAYG from the latter three stations and
pay £270/peak or £2.20/off-peak.

And, just to make things more interesting, the Off-peak Day Return
(aka CDR) fare from Seven Sisters, Tottenham Hale and Walthamstow
Central is £4.10 - why? Because this is the fare for a CDR from zone 3
to zone 1 according to the pan-London NR farescale! So paper fares
from these stations actually utilise both farescales. (This is all
according to NRE.)

I guess all these have a single ticket office, which can't issue a
single less than £4 for the journey because they can't tell which way
you'd go.

The whole point of interavailable ticketing being that it doesn't
matter which way you go - it's just interesting to note that when it
comes to single journeys it's the LU fare that trumps the NR fare, as
opposed to the other way round, that's all.


It doesn't mean that NR cash fares will necessarily go up at non-
interchange stations when PAYG is introduced, but it's a worrying
thought that the cash fare might go up to the NR zone 1 - 6 fare.

I wasn't thinking that NR cash fares for paper tickets would go up at
all. In my reading of things, NR paper ticket fares will basically
stay unchanged (apart from tracking inflation) and NR PAYG fares will
simply mirror them exactly - i.e. no saving whatsoever for using PAYG
on NR (and if one is *only* making a return journey on NR, then a
return rail fare *may* be cheaper).


However, for reasons unknown, there are no return fares showing for
Stratford to Liverpool Street - which on interavailability terms I
would have thought is basically the same as the three Tottenham/
Walthamstow way stations. Perhaps the crucial difference is simply
that the Central line directly links Stratford to Liverpool Street
too, whereas one wouldn't use the Tube to get from the Tottenham/
Walthamstow stations to Liverpool Street.

Downthread "Brian A60K" has just posted to say that return fares for
Stratford to Liverpool Street *do* show up in Avantix Traveller (i.e.
the fares manual) - so it appears possible/likely that the above is
merely the result of a glitch in the NRE journey planner.


I just tried Barking to West Ham, and it offered £3.20 single and
£6.40 return (same day), so instead of confirming what happens where
the route is shared, it come up with something completely different.
Oh well.

Hmm. The £3.20 is obviously correct - that's the non-z1 cash/paper
ticket Tube fare. Maybe this is a similar glitch to the above. Not
being in possession of the Avantix Traveller CD-ROM I can't crosscheck
this.