This morning I had to travel to Leyton to Ilford and needless to say,
given I haven't bought a paper ticket in London for YEARS due to
always having a monthly or annual travelcard and auto top up on my
Oystercard, it never crossed my mind that I'd have to buy a ticket to
cover me for the stretch outside of zone 3 to Ilford.

And so, since at Stratford, there's no check to prevent me making the
journey, I hopped on train with scarcely a thought.

Having arrived at Ilford, I popped out my Oystercard but couldn't get
through the barrier, at which point it stopped me and I was "kindly"
asked to see the bloke issuing penalty fares. I waited (stewing, and
was strongly considering flat out refusing to pay the £20 if they told
me that was the way it was going to be done) and was informed that "by
rights", I should be paying £20 - I argued that since I come from the
21st century, I haven't bought a ticket in years, it was a completely
honest and understandable mistake. Fortunately, (and quite seriously,
given his attitude to the Asian woman before me, I suspect probably
the fact I was white and vaguely middle class) he made a huge thing of
the fact that he'd probably made enough money for the his employer and
would sell me a single from Stratford.

I haven't been so lucky before - when I used to travel from Hackney
Central to Stratford on the way to Canary Wharf, I had forgotten that
my monthly had expired the day before, and since it was the days
before barriers at Hackney Central, I didn't have to touch in to get
through and so had no indication that I'd got an expired monthly until
I walked into a ticket check at Stratford. On that day, it was 'zero
tolerance' regardless of the fact that my Oystercard had almost
complete travelcard coverage for the previous couple of years and so
it was quite unlikely I was trying to blag my way through. The arsey
"we've got you over a barrel" attitude of the revenue collection
officer on the day REALLY REALLY got my goat.

There. I've got all that off my chest.

And don't get me started on the behaviour of the revenue protection
officers on WAGN during the early part of this decade (when I used to
work in Hertford) - I had a number of run-ins with those a##holes.
(and never once was my ticket invalid - their general attitude was
disgusting)

On Jul 3, 3:16*pm, Martin Petrov wrote:
This morning I had to travel to Leyton to Ilford and needless to say,
given I haven't bought a paper ticket in London for YEARS due to
always having a monthly or annual travelcard and auto top up on my
Oystercard, it never crossed my mind that I'd have to buy a ticket to
cover me for the stretch outside of zone 3 to Ilford.

And so, since at Stratford, there's no check to prevent me making the
journey, I hopped on train with scarcely a thought.

Having arrived at Ilford, I popped out my Oystercard but couldn't get
through the barrier, at which point it stopped me and I was "kindly"
asked to see the bloke issuing penalty fares. I waited (stewing, and
was strongly considering flat out refusing to pay the £20 if they told
me that was the way it was going to be done) and was informed that "by
rights", I should be paying £20 - I argued that since I come from the
21st century, I haven't bought a ticket in years, it was a completely
honest and understandable mistake. Fortunately, (and quite seriously,
given his attitude to the Asian woman before me, I suspect probably
the fact I was white and vaguely middle class) he made a huge thing of
the fact that he'd probably made enough money for the his employer and
would sell me a single from Stratford.

They would have been well within their rights to issue a Penalty Fare.
Unfortunately the root cause of this is the fact that TOCs have been
incredibly glacial in coming round to accepting Oyster PAYG
universally across London rail routes - they don't yet, of course,
though with some luck it might happen some time next year.


I haven't been so lucky before - when I used to travel from Hackney
Central to Stratford on the way to Canary Wharf, I had forgotten that
my monthly had expired the day before, and since it was the days
before barriers at Hackney Central, I didn't have to touch in to get
through and so had no indication that I'd got an expired monthly until
I walked into a ticket check at Stratford. On that day, it was 'zero
tolerance' regardless of the fact that my Oystercard had almost
complete travelcard coverage for the previous couple of years and so
it was quite unlikely I was trying to blag my way through. The arsey
"we've got you over a barrel" attitude of the revenue collection
officer on the day REALLY REALLY got my goat.

I'm guessing that instead of simply being charged the £4 for an
unresolved journey (the so called "max cash fare"), the gates had been
set so as not to allow anyone through who didn't have a valid
Travelcard (on Oyster) or hadn't touched-in at the beginning of their
journey. I heard a story recently that would back up that notion -
i.e. that's how things work when RPIs are doing a 'zero tolerance'
check at a station.

The above scenario is an inevitable one for smartcard ticketing - at
least until someone devises a card that can display information
visually that's robust and inexpensive enough etc for it to be rolled
out for practical day to day use. If one's Oyster card is registered -
and this is necessary for monthly and longer season tickets - then the
Oyster card system sends the registered holder an email informing them
that the Travelcard (or bus pass) is due to expire shortly. In
addition the newer version of LU gates flashes up a warning in red
text (and indeed the other displays associated with Oyster readers -
e.g. on buses - do the same, but they're rather harder to read).

One quite technical point - the Oyster card itself does not hold the
whole history of what tickets have and haven't been loaded on it. I
think there are three 'slots' for season tickets (i.e. Travelcards and
bus passes), so anything before that will have been overwritten by the
new ticket. Nor do I think RPIs have any sort of data link to the
central Oyster card database either.


There. I've got all that off my chest.

And don't get me started on the behaviour of the revenue protection
officers on WAGN during the early part of this decade (when I used to
work in Hertford) - I had a number of run-ins with those a##holes.
(and never once was my ticket invalid - their general attitude was
disgusting)

I've certainly seen RPIs who seem to have attitude problems. I have,
to be fair, seen many others who don't seem to take such obvious
gratification in 'catching their prey' - taking some quiet
satisfaction is one thing, but I can certainly see how those with a
swaggering attitude can gets on people's goats. The best attitude is
just to calmly take it all in ones stride.

Martin Petrov wrote:

This morning I had to travel to Leyton to Ilford and needless to say,
given I haven't bought a paper ticket in London for YEARS due to
always having a monthly or annual travelcard and auto top up on my
Oystercard, it never crossed my mind that I'd have to buy a ticket to
cover me for the stretch outside of zone 3 to Ilford.

Given that Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys, I'm
amazed that you've managed to go "for YEARS" without needing a paper
ticket. Were you stuck indoors for most of that time?

On 3 July, 16:40, "solar penguin"
wrote:
Martin Petrov wrote:
This morning I had to travel to Leyton to Ilford and needless to say,
given I haven't bought a paper ticket in London for YEARS due to
always having a monthly or annual travelcard and auto top up on my
Oystercard, it never crossed my mind that I'd have to buy a ticket to
cover me for the stretch outside of zone 3 to Ilford.

Given that Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys, I'm
amazed that you've managed to go "for YEARS" without needing a paper
ticket. *Were you stuck indoors for most of that time?

In London? Yep, I had a 1-5 for a while while I worked in Bromley and
even since I've been working back in the centre, a 1-3 has sufficed
for any journey I need to make around the local area. I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay for a good
few years. And while I lived in Hackney, largely all my journeys
involved buses. The Oystercard is absolutely ace.

On Jul 3, 4:40*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Martin Petrov wrote:
This morning I had to travel to Leyton to Ilford and needless to say,
given I haven't bought a paper ticket in London for YEARS due to
always having a monthly or annual travelcard and auto top up on my
Oystercard, it never crossed my mind that I'd have to buy a ticket to
cover me for the stretch outside of zone 3 to Ilford.

Given that Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys, I'm
amazed that you've managed to go "for YEARS" without needing a paper
ticket. *Were you stuck indoors for most of that time?

"Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys" - total
balderdash, it's completely useful for an untold number of journeys
around London. However Oyster PAYG might be useless for most of the
journeys that you want to do - but don't use yourself as the basis for
everyone else!

Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside PAYG-
land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to some of the
further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail (though
they're pretty much all accessible by bus of course). But I dare say
the same applies for a great many number of Londoners.

Martin Petrov wrote:

On 3 July, 16:40, "solar penguin"
wrote:
Martin Petrov wrote:
This morning I had to travel to Leyton to Ilford and needless to
say, given I haven't bought a paper ticket in London for YEARS
due to always having a monthly or annual travelcard and auto top
up on my Oystercard, it never crossed my mind that I'd have to
buy a ticket to cover me for the stretch outside of zone 3 to
Ilford.

Given that Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys, I'm
amazed that you've managed to go "for YEARS" without needing a paper
ticket. Were you stuck indoors for most of that time?

In London?

No, indoors. Like a room with a padded cell.

Yep, I had a 1-5 for a while while I worked in Bromley

Great if you were living in Zone One at the time, maybe. Not so great
if you're living in southeast London and just need a simple
point-to-point serason between you'r local station and Bromley South,
with no extra travelcard stuff for tubes and buses that you're not going
to use at all.

and
even since I've been working back in the centre, a 1-3 has sufficed
for any journey I need to make around the local area.

But you need the season travelcard for that to work on the trains. It's
totally useless otherwise. And Z1-3 is still no good for all your
leisure journeys on NR trains, because it forces you in towarsd the
centre when you want to be getting heading outwards towards the suburbs
and all the open spaces along the London Loop.

I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay for a good
few years.

Which might be handy one day, but for now Overground is completely
useless for most journeys, since there's hardly anything of it south of
the river. So there's still the need for a paper ticket to/from Clapham
Junction to connect with it.

And while I lived in Hackney, largely all my journeys
involved buses. The Oystercard is absolutely ace.

It is good for buses, I'll grant you that much. But even so, it's still
nothing more than an inconvenient replacement for the old Savers bus
tickets.

Like I said, Oyster is just a useless white elephant. I'm glad you've
managed to find journeys where it works for you (even if it did mean
having to move to Hackney to do it.) But always remember that
Oyster-friendly jouneys are the exception, not the rule.

On 3 July, 15:45, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 3, 3:16*pm, Martin Petrov wrote:



This morning I had to travel to Leyton to Ilford and needless to say,
given I haven't bought a paper ticket in London for YEARS due to
always having a monthly or annual travelcard and auto top up on my
Oystercard, it never crossed my mind that I'd have to buy a ticket to
cover me for the stretch outside of zone 3 to Ilford.

And so, since at Stratford, there's no check to prevent me making the
journey, I hopped on train with scarcely a thought.

Having arrived at Ilford, I popped out my Oystercard but couldn't get
through the barrier, at which point it stopped me and I was "kindly"
asked to see the bloke issuing penalty fares. I waited (stewing, and
was strongly considering flat out refusing to pay the £20 if they told
me that was the way it was going to be done) and was informed that "by
rights", I should be paying £20 - I argued that since I come from the
21st century, I haven't bought a ticket in years, it was a completely
honest and understandable mistake. Fortunately, (and quite seriously,
given his attitude to the Asian woman before me, I suspect probably
the fact I was white and vaguely middle class) he made a huge thing of
the fact that he'd probably made enough money for the his employer and
would sell me a single from Stratford.

They would have been well within their rights to issue a Penalty Fare.
Unfortunately the root cause of this is the fact that TOCs have been
incredibly glacial in coming round to accepting Oyster PAYG
universally across London rail routes - they don't yet, of course,
though with some luck it might happen some time next year.



I haven't been so lucky before - when I used to travel from Hackney
Central to Stratford on the way to Canary Wharf, I had forgotten that
my monthly had expired the day before, and since it was the days
before barriers at Hackney Central, I didn't have to touch in to get
through and so had no indication that I'd got an expired monthly until
I walked into a ticket check at Stratford. On that day, it was 'zero
tolerance' regardless of the fact that my Oystercard had almost
complete travelcard coverage for the previous couple of years and so
it was quite unlikely I was trying to blag my way through. The arsey
"we've got you over a barrel" attitude of the revenue collection
officer on the day REALLY REALLY got my goat.

I'm guessing that instead of simply being charged the £4 for an
unresolved journey (the so called "max cash fare"), the gates had been
set so as not to allow anyone through who didn't have a valid
Travelcard (on Oyster) or hadn't touched-in at the beginning of their
journey. I heard a story recently that would back up that notion -
i.e. that's how things work when RPIs are doing a 'zero tolerance'
check at a station.

The above scenario is an inevitable one for smartcard ticketing - at
least until someone devises a card that can display information
visually that's robust and inexpensive enough etc for it to be rolled
out for practical day to day use. If one's Oyster card is registered -
and this is necessary for monthly and longer season tickets - then the
Oyster card system sends the registered holder an email informing them
that the Travelcard (or bus pass) is due to expire shortly. In
addition the newer version of LU gates flashes up a warning in red
text (and indeed the other displays associated with Oyster readers -
e.g. on buses - do the same, but they're rather harder to read).

One quite technical point - the Oyster card itself does not hold the
whole history of what tickets have and haven't been loaded on it. I
think there are three 'slots' for season tickets (i.e. Travelcards and
bus passes), so anything before that will have been overwritten by the
new ticket. Nor do I think RPIs have any sort of data link to the
central Oyster card database either.



There. I've got all that off my chest.

And don't get me started on the behaviour of the revenue protection
officers on WAGN during the early part of this decade (when I used to
work in Hertford) - I had a number of run-ins with those a##holes.
(and never once was my ticket invalid - their general attitude was
disgusting)

I've certainly seen RPIs who seem to have attitude problems. I have,
to be fair, seen many others who don't seem to take such obvious
gratification in 'catching their prey' - taking some quiet
satisfaction is one thing, but I can certainly see how those with a
swaggering attitude can gets on people's goats. The best attitude is
just to calmly take it all in ones stride.

Lots of very fair points, as I would expect from the esteemed
poster

My real beef is that it has often looked as though WAGN (and probably
others) have made it as difficult as possible to actually buy a ticket
(very very poor ticket machines which were slow as hell, unintuitive
and liable to swallow your card, combined with largely unstaffed
stations), and refusing allow people to buy their tickets on the
train.

When I lived back up north, the norm on north west trains was that
there would be a guard on all trains who would sell you a ticket on
the train, no questions asked (maybe it's not any more, but it seemed
to work well enough then) - this seemed like a perfectly sensible
option, and to see such poor facilities combined with aggressive and
nasty staff who would give no leeway in the event of queues at the
ticket office or ticket machines (and honestly, I wouldn't have been
too happy to have to put my card in the machines....) I know there has
to be some sort of deterrent to fare dodgers, but the zero tolerance
approach can leave a bad taste in the event of genuinely
understandable circumstances.

On Jul 3, 5:33*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Martin Petrov wrote:

On 3 July, 16:40, "solar penguin"
wrote:

[snip]

Given that Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys, I'm
amazed that you've managed to go "for YEARS" without needing a paper
ticket. Were you stuck indoors for most of that time?

In London?

No, indoors. *Like a room with a padded cell.

Yep, I had a 1-5 for a while while I worked in Bromley

Great if you were living in Zone One at the time, maybe. *Not so great
if you're living in southeast London and just need a simple
point-to-point serason between you'r local station and Bromley South,
with no extra travelcard stuff for tubes and buses that you're not going
to use at all.

OK - then you buy a simple point-so-point season ticket. Where's the
problem?


and
even since I've been working back in the centre, a 1-3 has sufficed
for any journey I need to make around the local area.

But you need the season travelcard for that to work on the trains. *It's
totally useless otherwise. *And Z1-3 is still no good for all your
leisure journeys on NR trains, because it forces you in towarsd the
centre when you want to be getting heading outwards towards the suburbs
and all the open spaces along the London Loop.

I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay for a
good few years.

[Actually since November 2007, when LO took over from Silverlink]


Which might be handy one day, but for now Overground is completely
useless for most journeys, since there's hardly anything of it south of
the river. *So there's still the need for a paper ticket to/from Clapham
Junction to connect with it.

I'm a south Londoner too - but I've hardly got it in for LO simply
because it's all north of the river (where on I'd say the majority of
intra-London public transport journeys take place, simply because
there's more people north of the river) . I've got it in for the TOCs
who've been useless at getting their act in gear, and I've got it in
for the DfT who've been useless at making the TOCs go in for Oyster
PAYG.


And while I lived in Hackney, largely all my journeys
involved buses. The Oystercard is absolutely ace.

It is good for buses, I'll grant you that much. *But even so, it's still
nothing more than an inconvenient replacement for the old Savers bus
tickets.

An "inconvenient replacement" that's far more convenient - faster
boarding times, stores lots more credit, isn't susceptible to fraud,
can offer daily capping - yeah, pull the other one.


Like I said, Oyster is just a useless white elephant. *I'm glad you've
managed to find journeys where it works for you (even if it did mean
having to move to Hackney to do it.) *But always remember that
Oyster-friendly jouneys are the exception, not the rule.

Ha ha ha, I see now - you are being a *massive* troll and I claim my
£5 Oyster credit

(Too much sun?)

Mizter T wrote:


They would have been well within their rights to issue a Penalty Fare.
Unfortunately the root cause of this is the fact that TOCs have been
incredibly glacial in coming round to accepting Oyster PAYG
universally across London rail routes - they don't yet, of course,
though with some luck it might happen some time next year.


The trouble is, it always "might happen some", no matter what year it
just happens to be. Forgive me for being cynical, but I really have a
hard time imagining this ever coming about.

Mizter T wrote:


"Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys" - total
balderdash, it's completely useful for an untold number of journeys
around London. However Oyster PAYG might be useless for most of the
journeys that you want to do - but don't use yourself as the basis for
everyone else!

Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside
PAYG- land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to some
of the further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail
(though they're pretty much all accessible by bus of course). But I
dare say the same applies for a great many number of Londoners.

"The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"? And
what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to live in
these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? Don't we count?

Although since the OP was only going as far as Ilford, which is -
what? - Zone Four at the most, it's hardly that far a "furthest reach".