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Overnight Tube
As I understand it, the tube has to be closed overnight because of
maintenance work. The NYC subway has 4 tunnel lines so they can be open all night. What about a limited service using just one track? You'd have one train running back and forth between 2 to 3 stations. Take the victoria for example, one train would run Brixton - Stockwell - Vauxhall - Pimlico - Victoria and back again, giving a frequency of one train every 20 minutes in each direction, then a train would run victoria to kings cross, again a 20 minutes service, kings cross - seven sisters, seven sisters - waltahstow. As only one tunnel would be used, the other could be maintained. Until 4AM the trains could be timetabled to allow leaving the center easilly, minimising connections - on the victoria line the victoria - kings x train would arrive, then leave, then a minute later the kx - seven sisters train would arrive. After 4AM the flow would be reversed allowing access to the city. If the service was popular enough, you could have trains running every 10 minutes, so brixton-vauxhall, vauxhall-victoria, vic-oxcirc ox-kingsx, kingsx-finsbury, fins-tottenham hale, th - walthamstow Central could be ealing broadway - north acton - white city - notting hill - bond street - holburn - liverpool street - stratford - leytonstone Piccadilly could be finsbury - kingsx - holburn - green park - glocester road - Hammersmith Well, you get the idea. Going against the traffic flow would take a long time, but going with the flow should only take an extra 10 minutes per hour. I'm guessing outside the tunnels it's easy to switch trains from one track to another allowing trains to pass each other at key points. With careful timetabling and planning, routine maintenence could be done while a limited service would still be operational. Is there a demand for all night services? |
Overnight Tube
Paul Weaver wrote in message ...
As I understand it, the tube has to be closed overnight because of maintenance work. The NYC subway has 4 tunnel lines so they can be open all night. What about a limited service using just one track? Is there a demand for all night services? Nice question, Paul, you're using your cdf (common dog f..., er, common sense). The standard answer they always give me is that signals won't allow it - signals aren't set up to protect trains operating this way. Also, you can't move materials and plant around stations while passengers are still about (safety issue). Working near crossovers, where workers could accidently step onto the running line is another issue (also safety). There are cross-passages between tunnels as well, staff using them for storing materials could also accidently wander onto the running line (safety again). And..... It would be good to see some collective will to overcome these problems, everyone would benefit. Especially if they could shut down the one line earlier than they do now, and open it later. John |
Overnight Tube
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Overnight Tube
"JDikseun" wrote in message
om... Paul Weaver wrote in message ... What about a limited service using just one track? Nice question, Paul, you're using your cdf (common dog f..., er, common sense). The standard answer they always give me is that signals won't allow it - signals aren't set up to protect trains operating this way. Since there would only be one train on each open section, and each open section would be separated by several miles from the next open section on the same track, signals wouldn't be needed. So long as the last section at the end of the line operated on the correct line towards the terminus (and wrong line away from it), and the tripcocks were operating here, and each train had a driver in each end, I don't see many safety problems... although any sections with speed-operated trainstops (whatever they are called), such as the southbound into Archway, would need to have tripcocks operational as well. Trying to get a trainload of drunks and potheads from one platform to the opposite platform quickly might be more of a challenge. Fitting hoppers in the floors of trains and using stations like St Pauls where one track is directly above the other might do the trick. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
Overnight Tube
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Overnight Tube
"John Rowland" wrote in message ...
Since there would only be one train on each open section, and each open section would be separated by several miles from the next open section on the same track, signals wouldn't be needed. So long as the last section at the end of the line operated on the correct line towards the terminus (and wrong line away from it), and the tripcocks were operating here, and each train had a driver in each end, I don't see many safety problems... although any sections with speed-operated trainstops (whatever they are called), such as the southbound into Archway, would need to have tripcocks operational as well. Then you'd be using alternate northbound/sb sections, or (eb/wb). Which would dramatically reduce the sections you could work on. Add to this the arrangement of current sections, and there'd be even less areas you could access to do maintenance.......Wouldn't that then put us right back to: "Shut the whole line down so we can get some maintenance done"? Trying to get a trainload of drunks and potheads from one platform to the opposite platform quickly might be more of a challenge. Fitting hoppers in the floors of trains and using stations like St Pauls where one track is directly above the other might do the trick. Chuckle. |
Overnight Tube
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:34:51 +0100, Paul Weaver
wrote: As I understand it, the tube has to be closed overnight because of maintenance work. The NYC subway has 4 tunnel lines so they can be open all night. What about a limited service using just one track? You'd have one train running back and forth between 2 to 3 stations. Take the victoria for example, one train would run Brixton - Stockwell - Vauxhall - Pimlico - Victoria and back again, giving a frequency of one train every 20 minutes in each direction, then a train would run victoria to kings cross, again a 20 minutes service, kings cross - seven sisters, seven sisters - waltahstow. [snip] this will seem like a negative answer but I'm trying to tell it straight. typically the signalling system will not allow this form of reverse working. It would also be expensive to install for relatively little benefit. There are considerable safety issues concerning working in adjacent "closed" tunnels or even within the stations which would need to remain open. Huge amounts of maintenance works occur right throughout the stations at night including those jobs which cannot be undertaken when trains run because there are restrictions on working too close to the platform edge. Even simple tasks like deep cleans or use of mechanical cleaners cannot be done if people are traipsing through the stations. There is the fact that very large scale improvement projects are planned across the LUL network over the next few years and they need amounts of time when the system is closed to allow efficient working. I'm not saying it's impossible to work round a limited night service but delivery of these improvements would be much later than planned. Is there a demand for all night services? If you look at the demand for night buses and taxis the answer would appear to be yes. However I think the demand is different to daytime demand as there is not a lot of short hop, zone 1 travel. It is much more about Zone 1 to home with possibly a bit of zone 2 to home travel for those inner london areas with popular clubs, pubs etc. This is certainly reflected in the Night Bus network design and the usage thereof. Another big issue with your proposed "staggered" service pattern would be how it is communicated to and understood by people who to a large degree are not at the height of their faculties after a night on the time. There are too many accidents associated with alcohol at present and a more complicated service pattern that would not necessarily run from the "normal" platforms or the "normal" direction could present increased safety risks. The management of those passenger flows and identifying which train is going where would be a considerable issue. Just some thoughts which I'm pretty sure will be derided by the core faction of anti LUL sentiment on the group. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Overnight Tube
"Boltar" wrote in message don't suspect theres a hope in hell of getting *any* LU staff to work night shifts (who don't have to already past about 1am) without a payrise never mind the drivers. Well would you? just to take aload of ****heads home. -- regards, Pre`38 tube [DR] westLondon, UK |
Overnight Tube
"Pre-38" wrote the following in:
"Boltar" wrote in message don't suspect theres a hope in hell of getting *any* LU staff to work night shifts (who don't have to already past about 1am) without a payrise never mind the drivers. Well would you? just to take aload of ****heads home. I have to admit, there's a lot of truth in that. -- message by Robin May, consumer of liquids Hello. I'm one of those "roaring fascists of the left wing". Hacker is to computer as boy racer is to Ford Escort. |
Overnight Tube
"Robin May" wrote in message
... Hacker is to computer as boy racer is to Ford Escort. Vauxhall Nova these days, surely? The boy racer Escorts of old are all becoming collectors items now. |
Overnight Tube
"Stimpy" wrote the following in:
"Robin May" wrote in message ... Hacker is to computer as boy racer is to Ford Escort. Vauxhall Nova these days, surely? The boy racer Escorts of old are all becoming collectors items now. I don't seem to see many Vauxhall Novas around here at all. I suppose it's true that Ford Escorts aren't all the common as boy racer cars these days. Fiestas, Corsas, Golfs, they seem to be the big things now. You do still get a few Escorts, but they're not the proper ones intended for the purpose. They're the ones where they fit massive alloy wheels which reveal the tiny brakes, put a sticker in the back window and replaced the rear lights with ones that are meant to look better but just look rubbish. -- message by Robin May, consumer of liquids Hello. I'm one of those "roaring fascists of the left wing". Hacker is to computer as boy racer is to Ford Escort. |
Overnight Tube
There is a few problems,
1) Each tunnle is generaly only single direction, so trains can only travel one way - the protection systems are set to protect it. 2) Some maintainance is reguly on systems that affect the signalling system, and since it is controlled on a station basis, killing one tunnle would kill them both. "Paul Weaver" wrote in message .. . As I understand it, the tube has to be closed overnight because of maintenance work. The NYC subway has 4 tunnel lines so they can be open all night. What about a limited service using just one track? You'd have one train running back and forth between 2 to 3 stations. Take the victoria for example, one train would run Brixton - Stockwell - Vauxhall - Pimlico - Victoria and back again, giving a frequency of one train every 20 minutes in each direction, then a train would run victoria to kings cross, again a 20 minutes service, kings cross - seven sisters, seven sisters - waltahstow. As only one tunnel would be used, the other could be maintained. Until 4AM the trains could be timetabled to allow leaving the center easilly, minimising connections - on the victoria line the victoria - kings x train would arrive, then leave, then a minute later the kx - seven sisters train would arrive. After 4AM the flow would be reversed allowing access to the city. If the service was popular enough, you could have trains running every 10 minutes, so brixton-vauxhall, vauxhall-victoria, vic-oxcirc ox-kingsx, kingsx-finsbury, fins-tottenham hale, th - walthamstow Central could be ealing broadway - north acton - white city - notting hill - bond street - holburn - liverpool street - stratford - leytonstone Piccadilly could be finsbury - kingsx - holburn - green park - glocester road - Hammersmith Well, you get the idea. Going against the traffic flow would take a long time, but going with the flow should only take an extra 10 minutes per hour. I'm guessing outside the tunnels it's easy to switch trains from one track to another allowing trains to pass each other at key points. With careful timetabling and planning, routine maintenence could be done while a limited service would still be operational. Is there a demand for all night services? |
Overnight Tube
Sad but true...
Btw, where on LUL do you work? "Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:34:51 +0100, Paul Weaver wrote: As I understand it, the tube has to be closed overnight because of maintenance work. The NYC subway has 4 tunnel lines so they can be open all night. What about a limited service using just one track? You'd have one train running back and forth between 2 to 3 stations. Take the victoria for example, one train would run Brixton - Stockwell - Vauxhall - Pimlico - Victoria and back again, giving a frequency of one train every 20 minutes in each direction, then a train would run victoria to kings cross, again a 20 minutes service, kings cross - seven sisters, seven sisters - waltahstow. [snip] this will seem like a negative answer but I'm trying to tell it straight. typically the signalling system will not allow this form of reverse working. It would also be expensive to install for relatively little benefit. There are considerable safety issues concerning working in adjacent "closed" tunnels or even within the stations which would need to remain open. Huge amounts of maintenance works occur right throughout the stations at night including those jobs which cannot be undertaken when trains run because there are restrictions on working too close to the platform edge. Even simple tasks like deep cleans or use of mechanical cleaners cannot be done if people are traipsing through the stations. There is the fact that very large scale improvement projects are planned across the LUL network over the next few years and they need amounts of time when the system is closed to allow efficient working. I'm not saying it's impossible to work round a limited night service but delivery of these improvements would be much later than planned. Is there a demand for all night services? If you look at the demand for night buses and taxis the answer would appear to be yes. However I think the demand is different to daytime demand as there is not a lot of short hop, zone 1 travel. It is much more about Zone 1 to home with possibly a bit of zone 2 to home travel for those inner london areas with popular clubs, pubs etc. This is certainly reflected in the Night Bus network design and the usage thereof. Another big issue with your proposed "staggered" service pattern would be how it is communicated to and understood by people who to a large degree are not at the height of their faculties after a night on the time. There are too many accidents associated with alcohol at present and a more complicated service pattern that would not necessarily run from the "normal" platforms or the "normal" direction could present increased safety risks. The management of those passenger flows and identifying which train is going where would be a considerable issue. Just some thoughts which I'm pretty sure will be derided by the core faction of anti LUL sentiment on the group. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Overnight Tube
"Darren Wiltshire" wrote in message .. . Sad but true... Btw, where on LUL do you work? Blimey I thought all the LUL Staff had buggered off this group! I hope he,s a driver!! You lot are overpaid bone idle *******s who go on strike at the drop of a hat for no bog roll!! There! Now wait for action!! |
Overnight Tube
"Ivor Smallone" wrote the following in:
snip There! Now wait for action!! Please do not feed the trolls. -- message by Robin May, consumer of liquids Hello. I'm one of those "roaring fascists of the left wing". Hacker is to computer as boy racer is to Ford Escort. |
Overnight Tube
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 18:57:04 +0100, "Darren Wiltshire"
wrote: Sad but true... Btw, where on LUL do you work? in an office. More than that I am not saying on a newsgroup given past experiences on this group. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Overnight Tube
They could what they do in NYC in the 2 track areas run buses around the work
areas eg runbuses between Russell Sq and Picadilly Circus |
Overnight Tube
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 23:38:53 +0100, Pre-38 wrote:
"Boltar" wrote in message don't suspect theres a hope in hell of getting *any* LU staff to work night shifts (who don't have to already past about 1am) without a payrise never mind the drivers. Well would you? just to take aload of ****heads home. Sorry, I didnt realise that LUL staff didn't gat paid. I work nights but I'm compensated with money |
Overnight Tube
In message , Boltar
writes Also don't forget theres there question of money. Not only the extra cost of powering the trains in the night but staff wages. I don't suspect theres a hope in hell of getting *any* LU staff to work night shifts (who don't have to already past about 1am) without a payrise never mind the drivers. I don't know about now, but 30 years ago in my time on Northern and Central lines, we did work nights. The last and first trains were operated by the same crews and in winter were sometimes called on to run snow clearing trains on outside sections. -- Clive |
Overnight Tube
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:46:34 +0100, "Ivor Smallone"
wrote: "Darren Wiltshire" wrote in message . .. Sad but true... Btw, where on LUL do you work? Blimey I thought all the LUL Staff had buggered off this group! Someone hasn't been paying attention. I hope he,s a driver!! Oh no - I'm far worse than that. You lot are overpaid bone idle *******s who go on strike at the drop of a hat for no bog roll!! Quite right too. I do no work at all but have never been on strike. There! Now wait for action!! Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Overnight Tube
In article , John Rowland
writes Since there would only be one train on each open section, and each open section would be separated by several miles from the next open section on the same track, signals wouldn't be needed. So long as the last section at the end of the line operated on the correct line towards the terminus (and wrong line away from it), and the tripcocks were operating here, and each train had a driver in each end, I don't see many safety problems. Actually you'd have a problem with the tripcocks. A train can be "back-tripped" if the rear car passes over a raised trainstop. On bits of track where trains move both ways the trainstops have to be lowered as a train approaches and raised once it's passed. Plain track is signalled like this. -- Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home: Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address |
Overnight Tube
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
... On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:46:34 +0100, "Ivor Smallone" wrote: I hope he,s a driver!! Oh no - I'm far worse than that. You didn't commission the 83 stock, did you? ;-) -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
Overnight Tube
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Overnight Tube
"Ivor Smallone" wrote in message ... "Darren Wiltshire" wrote in message .. . Sad but true... Btw, where on LUL do you work? Blimey I thought all the LUL Staff had buggered off this group! Some of us are still around from time to time.... I hope he,s a driver!! You lot are overpaid bone idle *******s who go on strike at the drop of a hat for no bog roll!! LOL! Nothing to stop you working for LU too -- Kat in Downtown Toronto |
Overnight Tube
"Robin Mayes" wrote in message .. . "Kat" wrote in message ... -- Kat in Downtown Toronto Ah, so that's what all those holes advertising CTRL works, the tube's going to Canada! In partnership with Air Canada ;-) -- Kat in Downtown Toronto |
Overnight Tube
"Clive" wrote in message ... In message , Boltar writes Also don't forget theres there question of money. Not only the extra cost of powering the trains in the night but staff wages. I don't suspect theres a hope in hell of getting *any* LU staff to work night shifts (who don't have to already past about 1am) without a payrise never mind the drivers. I don't know about now, but 30 years ago in my time on Northern and Central lines, we did work nights. The last and first trains were operated by the same crews and in winter were sometimes called on to run snow clearing trains on outside sections. -- Clive Back in the winter of 62/63 (was it?) I remember "shuttle" working was introduced North of Bounds Green on the Pic. This is mainly in the open. Northbound trains terminated on the centre line at the station (3 track station with two island platforms - centre track for terminating trains and access to the sidings). The shuttle to Cockfosters then ran on the one open track (cannot remember which side) so one way was completely wrong track I think ! only used this shuttle the once (not being a commuter) but IIRC we joined the train at Hounslow East which must have suffered from a similar snowfall but was operating normally. Of course that was in the days of REAL signals with SIGNALMEN. Today with computers in charge it may not be so easy. -- IanB n.b. Please respond via n.g. (I subscribe to two large newsgroups so I may be running a few days behind on reading threads). you may need to zzremove snooze mode to reply direct |
Overnight Tube
"Kat" wrote in message ... -- Kat in Downtown Toronto Ah, so that's what all those holes advertising CTRL works, the tube's going to Canada! |
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