[x-posted to uk.transport.london]

On Jul 17, 11:00*pm, "Zen83237" wrote:
Friend of mine was going to do night shift last night so was dressed up in
his best orange gear, when he went to get on a Bakerloo Line train, very
late I guess, he was mistaken for station staff and asked to help an old man
who was slumped in a seat. He was a Safety Engineer so knew first aid,
anyway the old guy was stone cold dead and it looked as though he had been
on the train some time.
Aren't they supposed to check at the end of the line or only when the train
is shunting do they check for people still on board?

The carriages only have to be checked when the train is about to do a
move which isn't "passenger certified" (or whatever the exact phrase
is). At the south end of the Bakerloo line, trains just reverse back
out of one of the two platforms at Elephant & Castle - so no need for
them to be checked there (plus I think stepping-back happens there at
least some of the time - though I suppose that's less likely when it's
late and the service is less frequent).

At the far north end of the Bakerloo, at Harrow & Wealdstone, tube
trains use a reversing siding, whilst further south at Queen's Park
(where a proportion of the Bakerloo services terminate) they reverse
in the carriage sheds. I've absolutely no idea whether either of these
moves are passenger certified. (I was under the impression that LU
procedures in this area are quite strictly enforced.)

FWIW, it's hardly unknown for sleeping pax to do a few laps of
Underground lines, specifically on the lines where trains reverse in
the same platform at the terminating station to head back the other
way, especially later in the evening. I certainly know a few folk
who've done this! (But not me, I hasten to add!) I think the staff
attitude when it's later in the evening often seems to be that it's
better to let sleeping dogs lie, especially if they are unresponsive
after the first attempts - not out of malice, but more because people
woken suddenly are not always in the best frame of mind (in particular
if drink is involved).

However earlier in the day I think staff might well make more of an
effort to raise a sleeping passenger, if other pax haven't done so
already. The staff technique is to gently rap some keys on the
adjacent window. There are also carriage cleaners around at the ends
of the line earlier in the day who might awaken sleeping folk.

On 18 July, 08:40, Mizter T wrote:
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]

On Jul 17, 11:00*pm, "Zen83237" wrote:

Friend of mine was going to do night shift last night so was dressed up in
his best orange gear, when he went to get on a Bakerloo Line train, very
late I guess, he was mistaken for station staff and asked to help an old man
who was slumped in a seat. He was a Safety Engineer so knew first aid,
anyway the old guy was stone cold dead and it looked as though he had been
on the train some time.
Aren't they supposed to check at the end of the line or only when the train
is shunting do they check for people still on board?

The carriages only have to be checked when the train is about to do a
move which isn't "passenger certified" (or whatever the exact phrase
is). At the south end of the Bakerloo line, trains just reverse back
out of one of the two platforms at Elephant & Castle - so no need for
them to be checked there (plus I think stepping-back happens there at
least some of the time - though I suppose that's less likely when it's
late and the service is less frequent).

At the far north end of the Bakerloo, at Harrow & Wealdstone, tube
trains use a reversing siding, whilst further south at Queen's Park
(where a proportion of the Bakerloo services terminate) they reverse
in the carriage sheds. I've absolutely no idea whether either of these
moves are passenger certified. (I was under the impression that LU
procedures in this area are quite strictly enforced.)

FWIW, it's hardly unknown for sleeping pax to do a few laps of
Underground lines, specifically on the lines where trains reverse in
the same platform at the terminating station to head back the other
way, especially later in the evening. I certainly know a few folk
who've done this! (But not me, I hasten to add!) I think the staff
attitude when it's later in the evening often seems to be that it's
better to let sleeping dogs lie, especially if they are unresponsive
after the first attempts - not out of malice, but more because people
woken suddenly are not always in the best frame of mind (in particular
if drink is involved).

However earlier in the day I think staff might well make more of an
effort to raise a sleeping passenger, if other pax haven't done so
already. The staff technique is to gently rap some keys on the
adjacent window. There are also carriage cleaners around at the ends
of the line earlier in the day who might awaken sleeping folk.

And some trains turn round in the platform. While people generally
leave the train at the terminus, there will be a new batch waiting to
get on. As the driver walks back, how can they tell if a person
sitting in a carriage should have got off or has just got on?

The ticketing system with barriers is designed to make sure that fares
are paid. Ticket checks on the Underground are now, therefore, very
rare. If a passenger isn't giving trouble and a ticket check isn't
required, then why talk to them (particularly if they appear to be
asleep) and risk the occasional violent reaction?

Rob.

"D1053" wrote in message
...

snip
And some trains turn round in the platform. While people
generally leave the train at the terminus, there will be a
new batch waiting to get on. As the driver walks back, how
can they tell if a person sitting in a carriage should have got
off or has just got on?

LOL, in the context of the OP, would it matter?! Also if someone
has only just got on and is already 'asleep in their seat' isn't
that a cause for concern anyway...
--
BBC = Biased Broadcasting Corporation...
Time for the BBC tax to be repealed.
Sorry, mail to this address goes unread.
Please reply via group.

On Jul 18, 8:40*am, Mizter T wrote:
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]

On Jul 17, 11:00*pm, "Zen83237" wrote:

Friend of mine was going to do night shift last night so was dressed up in
his best orange gear, when he went to get on a Bakerloo Line train, very
late I guess, he was mistaken for station staff and asked to help an old man
who was slumped in a seat. He was a Safety Engineer so knew first aid,
anyway the old guy was stone cold dead and it looked as though he had been
on the train some time.
Aren't they supposed to check at the end of the line or only when the train
is shunting do they check for people still on board?

The carriages only have to be checked when the train is about to do a
move which isn't "passenger certified" (or whatever the exact phrase
is). At the south end of the Bakerloo line, trains just reverse back
out of one of the two platforms at Elephant & Castle - so no need for
them to be checked there (plus I think stepping-back happens there at
least some of the time - though I suppose that's less likely when it's
late and the service is less frequent).


My recollection is that the move has to be properly signalled and / or
not into sidings. The entrance to many of the dead end sidings is only
controlled by shunt signals and so they would not be 'allowed' for a
passenger carrying train. In addition, the point work within the
siding areas may not have point locks to prevent movement under the
trains, and these locks are another requirement for passenger
operation.

At the far north end of the Bakerloo, at Harrow & Wealdstone, tube
trains use a reversing siding, whilst further south at Queen's Park
(where a proportion of the Bakerloo services terminate) they reverse
in the carriage sheds. I've absolutely no idea whether either of these
moves are passenger certified. (I was under the impression that LU
procedures in this area are quite strictly enforced.)


And don't forget those that reverse in the depot approach roads at
Stonebridge Park,. Prior to TfL taking over LO, Bakerloo trains
reversing at Stonebridge park used to tip out passengers at Willesden
Junction as there was accomodation here for the Bakerloo staff to sit
in between trains. Now that a hut has been provided at Stonebridge
Park, the trains run all the way in service.

On Jul 18, 12:58*pm, "Tim Fenton" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

...

Aren't they supposed to check at the end of the line or only when the
train
is shunting do they check for people still on board?
The carriages only have to be checked when the train is about to do a
move which isn't "passenger certified" (or whatever the exact phrase
is).

Isn't the loop at Kennington an instance, apart from the others you
mentioned, where the staff clear everyone out of the train first?


Not any more, the checks stopped a few months back, presumably because
a normal passenger wouldn't notice anything unusual until they arrive
at Kennington for the second time!!

Andy wrote:
On Jul 18, 12:58 pm, "Tim Fenton" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

...

Aren't they supposed to check at the end of the line or only when the
train
is shunting do they check for people still on board?
The carriages only have to be checked when the train is about to do a
move which isn't "passenger certified" (or whatever the exact phrase
is).
Isn't the loop at Kennington an instance, apart from the others you
mentioned, where the staff clear everyone out of the train first?


Not any more, the checks stopped a few months back, presumably because
a normal passenger wouldn't notice anything unusual until they arrive
at Kennington for the second time!!

So does that mean it is now possible to go round?
Not that I would, of course, but...
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Jerry wrote:

LOL, in the context of the OP, would it matter?! Also if someone
has only just got on and is already 'asleep in their seat' isn't
that a cause for concern anyway...

It's hard to tell at a glance if someone is sleeping or just resting their
eyes. I've often travelled at all times of the day when I've been dog tired
and will get into a rest position as soon as I sit down to conserve energy
until I get home.

Andy wrote on 18 July 2009 13:22:54 ...
On Jul 18, 12:58 pm, "Tim Fenton" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

...

Aren't they supposed to check at the end of the line or only when the
train is shunting do they check for people still on board?
The carriages only have to be checked when the train is about to do a
move which isn't "passenger certified" (or whatever the exact phrase is).

Isn't the loop at Kennington an instance, apart from the others you
mentioned, where the staff clear everyone out of the train first?

Not any more, the checks stopped a few months back, presumably because
a normal passenger wouldn't notice anything unusual until they arrive
at Kennington for the second time!!

They might notice that the train was running slowly (max 15 mph IIRC)
round a very sharply curved track, and might fear that they were being
dumped in a siding. That's very similar to the circumstances at
Liverpool Street some time ago where I understand that a passenger
panicked, opened the inter-car door, and fell to his death. I thought
it was that incident which led to detrainment procedures being tightened
up, so I'm very surprised if they've been relaxed again.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

On Jul 18, 8:58*pm, "Richard J." wrote:
Andy wrote on 18 July 2009 13:22:54 *...

On Jul 18, 12:58 pm, "Tim Fenton" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

....

Aren't they supposed to check at the end of the line or only when the
train is shunting do they check for people still on board?
The carriages only have to be checked when the train is about to do a
move which isn't "passenger certified" (or whatever the exact phrase is).
Isn't the loop at Kennington an instance, apart from the others you
mentioned, where the staff clear everyone out of the train first?
Not any more, the checks stopped a few months back, presumably because
a normal passenger wouldn't notice anything unusual until they arrive
at Kennington for the second time!!

They might notice that the train was running slowly (max 15 mph IIRC)
round a very sharply curved track, and might fear that they were being
dumped in a siding. *That's very similar to the circumstances at
Liverpool Street some time ago where I understand that a passenger
panicked, opened the inter-car door, and fell to his death. *I thought
it was that incident which led to detrainment procedures being tightened
up, so I'm very surprised if they've been relaxed again.
--

Going slowly around tightly curved track is not unique to the
Kennington loop though, for example Bank to Liverpool Street on the
Central line is slow and tightly curved as well. With respect, the
Kennington situation is quite different from the Liverpool Street
accident which happened on a train in dead end sidings. Trains are
still checked in these situations, just not at Kennington where I
believe the time taken was impacting too much on the service. Trains
would fairly regularly backup as far as Waterloo or Charing Cross when
there was a delay in the detraining. I'm sure a risk assessment was
undertaken and the slight increase in risk thought to be reasonable in
the circumstances.

On 18/7/09 21:19, in article
, "Andy"
wrote:

On Jul 18, 8:58*pm, "Richard J." wrote:
Andy wrote on 18 July 2009 13:22:54 *...

On Jul 18, 12:58 pm, "Tim Fenton" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

...


Aren't they supposed to check at the end of the line or only when the
train is shunting do they check for people still on board?
The carriages only have to be checked when the train is about to do a
move which isn't "passenger certified" (or whatever the exact phrase is).
Isn't the loop at Kennington an instance, apart from the others you
mentioned, where the staff clear everyone out of the train first?
Not any more, the checks stopped a few months back, presumably because
a normal passenger wouldn't notice anything unusual until they arrive
at Kennington for the second time!!

They might notice that the train was running slowly (max 15 mph IIRC)
round a very sharply curved track, and might fear that they were being
dumped in a siding. *That's very similar to the circumstances at
Liverpool Street some time ago where I understand that a passenger
panicked, opened the inter-car door, and fell to his death. *I thought
it was that incident which led to detrainment procedures being tightened
up, so I'm very surprised if they've been relaxed again.
--

Going slowly around tightly curved track is not unique to the
Kennington loop though, for example Bank to Liverpool Street on the
Central line is slow and tightly curved as well. With respect, the
Kennington situation is quite different from the Liverpool Street
accident which happened on a train in dead end sidings. Trains are
still checked in these situations, just not at Kennington where I
believe the time taken was impacting too much on the service. Trains
would fairly regularly backup as far as Waterloo or Charing Cross when
there was a delay in the detraining. I'm sure a risk assessment was
undertaken and the slight increase in risk thought to be reasonable in
the circumstances.

I've been told, though I haven't been there since to try it, that not only
are the trains not checked, but riding round the City Hall loop in the 6
train on the New York Subway by passengers; a situation not unlike
Kennington, but with the addition of the long disused, but still largely
intact station on he loop, which is why I want to do it.