Night buses
 

Is the 102 the only route which is described as being a 24-hour bus, but in
reality has different termini for day and night (Brent Cross in the day,
Golders Green in the small hours)?

Is the N29 the only bus where half of the buses stop short (on Friday and
Saturday nights, half the buses terminate at Wood Green)?

BTW, I am mildly amused by the timetables for the N29 which tell you in big
letters that there is a bus ever 6-8 minutes, with a footnote saying that
the following buses only go to Wood Green, giving the exact times of the 50%
which are short journeys... no-one realised that giving the exact times of
the long journeys might be more useful than giving the exact times of the
short ones... or just giving the times of all the buses, utilizing the fact
that the timetable repeats every hour anyway. As usual with TfL information,
a one-size-fits-all policy is applied to everything, with little care to
special cases.

Night buses
 

On Jul 27, 12:37*am, "Basil Jet"
wrote:
Is the 102 the only route which is described as being a 24-hour bus, but in
reality has different termini for day and night (Brent Cross in the day,
Golders Green in the small hours)?

Is the N29 the only bus where half of the buses stop short (on Friday and
Saturday nights, half the buses terminate at Wood Green)?

BTW, I am mildly amused by the timetables for the N29 which tell you in big
letters that there is a bus ever 6-8 minutes, with a footnote saying that
the following buses only go to Wood Green, giving the exact times of the 50%
which are short journeys... no-one realised that giving the exact times of
the long journeys might be more useful than giving the exact times of the
short ones... or just giving the times of all the buses, utilizing the fact
that the timetable repeats every hour anyway. As usual with TfL information,
a one-size-fits-all policy is applied to everything, with little care to
special cases.

Not 100% certain about the 102 but it might be the only example like
that. However there are other examples where night versions are much
longer than day examples - N41 and N73 are two local to me. The 271
is also odd in that M-F daytime it terminates at Finsbury Square
whereas at night and at weekends it runs to Liverpool Street Station.

The N29 is far from unique in having differential termini - many night
routes have such a pattern - N9, N159, N3, N8, N18 etc.

If you want the detailed timetables then, as always, the answer is
www.londonbusroutes.net . However the N29 is so frequent, even to
Enfield Town, that is hardly a disaster if you have to wait 12 minutes
for the next one. If it was only every 30 mins then I agree that would
be more irksome.

--
Paul C
via Google

Night buses
 

The 65 has recently been extended from Kingston to Chessington world
of adventures at night only.

I expected them to bring back the "N65" designation but they didn't,
instead they put an awkward half-blue-background map on the bus stops,
on which the estimated time drops by some minutes immediately after
Kingston.
Perhaps there is now a general policy not to invent new N designations
when the route is an extension of the original route.

Night buses
 

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 00:37:21 +0100, Basil Jet wrote:

BTW, I am mildly amused by the timetables for the N29 which tell you in big
letters that there is a bus ever 6-8 minutes, with a footnote saying that
the following buses only go to Wood Green, giving the exact times of the 50%
which are short journeys... no-one realised that giving the exact times of
the long journeys might be more useful than giving the exact times of the
short ones... or just giving the times of all the buses, utilizing the fact
that the timetable repeats every hour anyway. As usual with TfL information,
a one-size-fits-all policy is applied to everything, with little care to
special cases.

It's even worse for the N18. The N18 runs to Sudbury Town every 10
minutes, with every third bus continuing to Harrow Weald. However, the
timetables at stops (e.g. Trafalgar Square) don't mention the fact
that any of the buses terminate at Sudbury, i.e. they make it look
like there's a 10-minute-frequency service through to Harrow Weald.

The worst part is that there's no indication of what times the Harrow
Weald buses actually run, which I think is unacceptable for a
half-hourly service.

Night buses
 

On 27 July, 11:07, David wrote:
The 65 has recently been extended from Kingston to Chessington world
of adventures at night only.

I expected them to bring back the "N65" designation but they didn't,
instead they put an awkward half-blue-background map on the bus stops,
on which the estimated time drops by some minutes immediately after
Kingston.
Perhaps there is now a general policy not to invent new N designations
when the route is an extension of the original route.

How is this signposted on the bus stops?
If a bus stop is along the at-night-only part of the route yet the bus
doesn't have an N-prefix, wouldn't it make it look as if the bus
stopped there at all times?

Night buses
 

On 27 July, 08:00, plcd1 wrote:
On Jul 27, 12:37*am, "Basil Jet"





wrote:
Is the 102 the only route which is described as being a 24-hour bus, but in
reality has different termini for day and night (Brent Cross in the day,
Golders Green in the small hours)?

Is the N29 the only bus where half of the buses stop short (on Friday and
Saturday nights, half the buses terminate at Wood Green)?

BTW, I am mildly amused by the timetables for the N29 which tell you in big
letters that there is a bus ever 6-8 minutes, with a footnote saying that
the following buses only go to Wood Green, giving the exact times of the 50%
which are short journeys... no-one realised that giving the exact times of
the long journeys might be more useful than giving the exact times of the
short ones... or just giving the times of all the buses, utilizing the fact
that the timetable repeats every hour anyway. As usual with TfL information,
a one-size-fits-all policy is applied to everything, with little care to
special cases.

Not 100% certain about the 102 but it might be the only example like
that. However there are other examples where night versions are much
longer than day examples - N41 and N73 are two local to me. *The 271
is also odd in that M-F daytime it terminates at Finsbury Square
whereas at night and at weekends it runs to Liverpool Street Station.

The N29 is far from unique in having differential termini - many night
routes have such a pattern - N9, N159, N3, N8, N18 etc.




The N89 is one of the oddest routes, because while many routes have to
do a direct trip from Trafalgar Square to where they join their normal
route, eg the N47 and N21 at London Bridge, the N89 has to find an
route all the way to Lewisham, and it's nothing like the route of any
day bus.

Night buses
 

asdf wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 00:37:21 +0100, Basil Jet wrote:

BTW, I am mildly amused by the timetables for the N29 which tell you
in big letters that there is a bus ever 6-8 minutes, with a footnote
saying that the following buses only go to Wood Green, giving the
exact times of the 50% which are short journeys... no-one realised
that giving the exact times of the long journeys might be more
useful than giving the exact times of the short ones... or just
giving the times of all the buses, utilizing the fact that the
timetable repeats every hour anyway. As usual with TfL information,
a one-size-fits-all policy is applied to everything, with little
care to special cases.

It's even worse for the N18. The N18 runs to Sudbury Town every 10
minutes, with every third bus continuing to Harrow Weald. However, the
timetables at stops (e.g. Trafalgar Square) don't mention the fact
that any of the buses terminate at Sudbury, i.e. they make it look
like there's a 10-minute-frequency service through to Harrow Weald.

The worst part is that there's no indication of what times the Harrow
Weald buses actually run, which I think is unacceptable for a
half-hourly service.

If it's this timetable here...
http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/use...__000062ee.pdf
.... the times of the Harrow Weald buses are hudden in the footnotes... but
there is no clue as to where the other buses terminate, so unless you are
going exactly to Harrow Weald, this timetable doesn't tell you whether you
have 6 buses an hour or 2. It seems to me that the main timetable panels
having an S after the time of each Sudbury bus would be a much better
solution, but I guess perceived simplicity is a higher priority than actual
simplicity. They need to learn from Einstein's (mis)quote... Make things as
simple as possible, but not simpler.

I'm not sure why they are using Long Elmes as a destination either.... are
people in Paddington Green trying to get a bus to Warren Street supposed to
know that Long Elmes is the wrong way? Do the N18s have Long Elmes written
on the front?

We should get together with news:misc.transport.urban-transit to run an
annual Most Misleading Transport Information In The World Competition, and
this timetable should be the British candidate. The prize could be an
engraved watch with a working second hand, no hour or minute hands, and the
dial replaced by the dial of a compass.

Night buses
 

On 27 July, 15:10, "Basil Jet"
wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 00:37:21 +0100, Basil Jet wrote:

BTW, I am mildly amused by the timetables for the N29 which tell you
in big letters that there is a bus ever 6-8 minutes, with a footnote
saying that the following buses only go to Wood Green, giving the
exact times of the 50% which are short journeys... no-one realised
that giving the exact times of the long journeys might be more
useful than giving the exact times of the short ones... or just
giving the times of all the buses, utilizing the fact that the
timetable repeats every hour anyway. As usual with TfL information,
a one-size-fits-all policy is applied to everything, with little
care to special cases.

It's even worse for the N18. The N18 runs to Sudbury Town every 10
minutes, with every third bus continuing to Harrow Weald. However, the
timetables at stops (e.g. Trafalgar Square) don't mention the fact
that any of the buses terminate at Sudbury, i.e. they make it look
like there's a 10-minute-frequency service through to Harrow Weald.

The worst part is that there's no indication of what times the Harrow
Weald buses actually run, which I think is unacceptable for a
half-hourly service.

If it's this timetable here...http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/use...__000062ee.pdf
... the times of the Harrow Weald buses are hudden in the footnotes... but
there is no clue as to where the other buses terminate, so unless you are
going exactly to Harrow Weald, this timetable doesn't tell you whether you
have 6 buses an hour or 2. It seems to me that the main timetable panels
having an S after the time of each Sudbury bus would be a much better
solution, but I guess perceived simplicity is a higher priority than actual
simplicity. They need to learn from Einstein's (mis)quote... Make things as
simple as possible, but not simpler.

I'm not sure why they are using Long Elmes as a destination either.... are
people in Paddington Green trying to get a bus to Warren Street supposed to
know that Long Elmes is the wrong way? Do the N18s have Long Elmes written
on the front?

We should get together with news:misc.transport.urban-transit to run an
annual Most Misleading Transport Information In The World Competition, and
this timetable should be the British candidate. The prize could be an
engraved watch with a working second hand, no hour or minute hands, and the
dial replaced by the dial of a compass.-

No; Milton Keynes would win every prize, and that wouldn't be fair.

Night buses
 

MIG wrote:

The N89 is one of the oddest routes, because while many routes have to
do a direct trip from Trafalgar Square to where they join their normal
route, eg the N47 and N21 at London Bridge, the N89 has to find an
route all the way to Lewisham, and it's nothing like the route of any
day bus.

It's not a particularly unreasonable route from Trafalgar Square to
Lewisham, though. The N41 route from Archway to Trafalgar Square is odder.

Night buses
 

On 27 July, 15:40, "Basil Jet"
wrote:
MIG wrote:

The N89 is one of the oddest routes, because while many routes have to
do a direct trip from Trafalgar Square to where they join their normal
route, eg the N47 and N21 at London Bridge, the N89 has to find an
route all the way to Lewisham, and it's nothing like the route of any
day bus.

It's not a particularly unreasonable route from Trafalgar Square to
Lewisham, though. The N41 route from Archway to Trafalgar Square is odder.

No; it's more that I wonder why there isn't a day route going that way.

Night buses
 

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 15:10:55 +0100, Basil Jet wrote:

It's even worse for the N18. The N18 runs to Sudbury Town every 10
minutes, with every third bus continuing to Harrow Weald. However, the
timetables at stops (e.g. Trafalgar Square) don't mention the fact
that any of the buses terminate at Sudbury, i.e. they make it look
like there's a 10-minute-frequency service through to Harrow Weald.

The worst part is that there's no indication of what times the Harrow
Weald buses actually run, which I think is unacceptable for a
half-hourly service.

If it's this timetable here...
http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/use...__000062ee.pdf
... the times of the Harrow Weald buses are hudden in the footnotes... but
there is no clue as to where the other buses terminate, so unless you are
going exactly to Harrow Weald, this timetable doesn't tell you whether you
have 6 buses an hour or 2. It seems to me that the main timetable panels
having an S after the time of each Sudbury bus would be a much better
solution, but I guess perceived simplicity is a higher priority than actual
simplicity. They need to learn from Einstein's (mis)quote... Make things as
simple as possible, but not simpler.

The link doesn't work; I'm not sure if the PDFs produced by the
journey planner are identical to the timetables posted at bus stops.
It's a while since I looked at one, but I definitely didn't notice any
footnote to that effect. I'll check again next time I'm in the area.

Night buses
 

asdf wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 15:10:55 +0100, Basil Jet wrote:

It's even worse for the N18. The N18 runs to Sudbury Town every 10
minutes, with every third bus continuing to Harrow Weald. However,
the timetables at stops (e.g. Trafalgar Square) don't mention the
fact that any of the buses terminate at Sudbury, i.e. they make it
look like there's a 10-minute-frequency service through to Harrow
Weald.

The worst part is that there's no indication of what times the
Harrow Weald buses actually run, which I think is unacceptable for a
half-hourly service.

If it's this timetable here...
http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/use...__000062ee.pdf
... the times of the Harrow Weald buses are hudden in the
footnotes... but there is no clue as to where the other buses
terminate, so unless you are going exactly to Harrow Weald, this
timetable doesn't tell you whether you have 6 buses an hour or 2. It
seems to me that the main timetable panels having an S after the
time of each Sudbury bus would be a much better solution, but I
guess perceived simplicity is a higher priority than actual
simplicity. They need to learn from Einstein's (mis)quote... Make
things as simple as possible, but not simpler.

The link doesn't work; I'm not sure if the PDFs produced by the
journey planner are identical to the timetables posted at bus stops.
It's a while since I looked at one, but I definitely didn't notice any
footnote to that effect. I'll check again next time I'm in the area.

Okay: go to http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk and click Timetables, then
Route Number N18, then Towards Long Elmes, then Trafalgar Square.

Night buses
 

In message , asdf
writes

The link doesn't work; I'm not sure if the PDFs produced by the
journey planner are identical to the timetables posted at bus stops.
It's a while since I looked at one, but I definitely didn't notice any
footnote to that effect. I'll check again next time I'm in the area.

You could always use ...

http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/N018.pdf

.... for a traditionally formatted (and very clear) timetable of the sort
that *used* to be posted at bus stops.
--
Paul Terry

Night buses
 

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 18:07:03 +0100, Basil Jet wrote:

It's even worse for the N18. The N18 runs to Sudbury Town every 10
minutes, with every third bus continuing to Harrow Weald. However,
the timetables at stops (e.g. Trafalgar Square) don't mention the
fact that any of the buses terminate at Sudbury, i.e. they make it
look like there's a 10-minute-frequency service through to Harrow
Weald.

The worst part is that there's no indication of what times the
Harrow Weald buses actually run, which I think is unacceptable for a
half-hourly service.

If it's this timetable here...
http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/use...__000062ee.pdf
... the times of the Harrow Weald buses are hudden in the
footnotes... but there is no clue as to where the other buses
terminate, so unless you are going exactly to Harrow Weald, this
timetable doesn't tell you whether you have 6 buses an hour or 2. It
seems to me that the main timetable panels having an S after the
time of each Sudbury bus would be a much better solution, but I
guess perceived simplicity is a higher priority than actual
simplicity. They need to learn from Einstein's (mis)quote... Make
things as simple as possible, but not simpler.

The link doesn't work; I'm not sure if the PDFs produced by the
journey planner are identical to the timetables posted at bus stops.
It's a while since I looked at one, but I definitely didn't notice any
footnote to that effect. I'll check again next time I'm in the area.

Okay: go to http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk and click Timetables, then
Route Number N18, then Towards Long Elmes, then Trafalgar Square.

OK, that timetable doesn't look like the one at the stops (although
the patronising "about every 10 mins" part is the same). I also don't
know what's up with "Long Elmes" as a destination - I've never heard
of it, and the buses certainly say "Harrow Weald" on the front. (I
suspect it's the name of the last stop that the route calls at, and
these PDFs are auto-generated using the stop data. That might also
explain why the route diagram depicts the first half of the route in
great (perhaps too much) detail, then inexplicably misses out the
second half of the route.)

Night buses
 

"plcd1" wrote in message
...
On Jul 27, 12:37 am, "Basil Jet"
wrote:

However the N29 is so frequent, even to
Enfield Town, that is hardly a disaster if you have to wait 12 minutes
for the next one. If it was only every 30 mins then I agree that would
be more irksome.


I guess you may not use the N29 too often of a Friday / Saturday very late
night...

I often find myself with a 30 Min wait at TCR either for a bus in service,
or one that want to stop and let more people on. I also often find myself
with a 20 min wait at Wood Green where every other bus comes in and turns
short.

This is quire regular now - so much so if I know I'm going to be on a late
service then I will either go another way, or walk back to T-Sq from where
ever I am so I can actually get on the thing.

Night buses
 

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 06:48:52 -0700 (PDT), Lucas
wrote:

On 27 July, 11:07, David wrote:
The 65 has recently been extended from Kingston to Chessington world
of adventures at night only.

I expected them to bring back the "N65" designation but they didn't,
instead they put an awkward half-blue-background map on the bus stops,
[...]
How is this signposted on the bus stops?
If a bus stop is along the at-night-only part of the route yet the bus
doesn't have an N-prefix, wouldn't it make it look as if the bus
stopped there at all times?

The "65" is on a blue background (as for an N route), with the text
"Nights only".

I'd have thought that the extended night route would revert to being
the N65, but perhaps *that* is what TfL wanted to avoid, rather than
necessarily the creation of a new "N".

Are there any other blue "Nights only" plates out there?

Richard.

Night buses
 

"Basil Jet" wrote in
:

Is the N29 the only bus where half of the buses stop short (on Friday
and Saturday nights, half the buses terminate at Wood Green)?

N207 - half the buses Su/M to Th/F and one-third of buses F/Sa and Sa/Su go
to Uxbridge; the rest stop at Hayes By-Pass.

Night buses
 

On Jul 27, 9:34*pm, "Q" ..@.. wrote:
I guess you may not use the N29 too often of a Friday / Saturday very late
night...

I often find myself with a 30 Min wait at TCR either for a bus in service,
or one that want to stop and let more people on. I also often find myself
with a 20 min wait at Wood Green where every other bus comes in and turns
short.

This is quire regular now - so much so if I know I'm going to be on a late
service then I will either go another way, or walk back to T-Sq from where
ever I am so I can actually get on the thing.

That's been my experience too - so much so that I try to avoid it
entirely these days.
Last time I was out near TCR, I walked down to Trafalgar Square for an
N29, and was rather satisfied with my seat - until it the bus turned
short at Finsbury Park.

Night buses
 

On Jul 27, 9:34*pm, "Q" ..@.. wrote:
I guess you may not use the N29 too often of a Friday / Saturday very late
night...

I often find myself with a 30 Min wait at TCR either for a bus in service,
or one that want to stop and let more people on. I also often find myself
with a 20 min wait at Wood Green where every other bus comes in and turns
short.

This is quire regular now - so much so if I know I'm going to be on a late
service then I will either go another way, or walk back to T-Sq from where
ever I am so I can actually get on the thing.

That's been my experience too - so much so that I try to avoid it
entirely these days.
Last time I was out near TCR, I walked down to Trafalgar Square for an
N29, and was rather satisfied with my seat - until it the bus turned
short at Finsbury Park.

Night buses
 

"Martin Deutsch" wrote in message
...

That's been my experience too - so much so that I try to avoid it
entirely these days.
Last time I was out near TCR, I walked down to Trafalgar Square for an
N29, and was rather satisfied with my seat - until it the bus turned
short at Finsbury Park.

Never had one turn there on me before. Walking to T-Sq is fine if your in
town, but I often find myself in other exotic lands where I don't have the
option to walk back to anywhere useful at all and just end up sitting at the
side of the road for an hour waiting for 'something useful'

There is always the N279 (depending where you want to go) but I don't have
that delight often.

Night buses
 

On Sat, 1 Aug 2009 12:59:38 +0100, "Q" ..@.. wrote:

Never had one turn there on me before.

It occurred to me that turning night buses short isn't the best of
ideas because of the personal safety issue in some parts of London.
Perhaps this should only be done (even if by not doing so it causes
delays) if the bus behind has actually caught up and passengers can be
transferred across.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Night buses
 

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...

if the bus behind has actually caught up and passengers can be
transferred across.

Well now see its not un common to see 2 or 3 N29's running together some
nights. The problem is the 1st and last are showing as Wood Green and the
2nd as Enfield Town.

Bus 1 goes sailing past full
Bus 2 stops full - won't let anyone on
Bus 3 stops full - might let you on

All 3 steam off with buses 1 and 3 picking up all the people that 2 won't.

We end up all dumped at Wood Green with another 30 min's to wait.

At least its only Wood Green with at least 2 bus loads - not like some dark
city road where there's only 3 of you.

Night buses
 

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2009-08-01, Q wrote:

At least its only Wood Green with at least 2 bus loads - not like some
dark
city road where there's only 3 of you.

Ahh. You've not heard about the reports of automatic weapon fire in
Wood Green, then?

Well not for a month or so... But rather 50-60 of us get gunned down at the
bus stop then 3 of us down some dark city road where no one will talk for 4
hrs!

At least at Wood Green there might be some hysteria and someone to 'raise
the alarm'