Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

Can anyone explain why Liverpool Street tube station was closed this morning
(at least for westbound Central Line trains)?

They said it was because of overcrowding, but when I asked Tube staff where
the overcrowding was, they said it was on the Central Line platforms. If
trains don't stop at the platform, how will this ease overcrowding? Surely
it makes things worse.

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

"Nicholas F Hodder" wrote the following in:


Can anyone explain why Liverpool Street tube station was closed
this morning (at least for westbound Central Line trains)?

They said it was because of overcrowding, but when I asked Tube
staff where the overcrowding was, they said it was on the Central
Line platforms. If trains don't stop at the platform, how will
this ease overcrowding? Surely it makes things worse.

I caught a Central line train at Liverpool Street this morning. I had
to wait for three to go past before there was one with any space for
extra passengers to get on, and hardly any passengers were getting off.
I'd think that maybe the reason trains weren't stopping there was
because it was a bit of a waste of time.

--
message by Robin May, consumer of liquids
Hello. I'm one of those "roaring fascists of the left wing".

Hacker is to computer as boy racer is to Ford Escort.

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:54:33 +0100, "Nicholas F Hodder"
wrote:

Can anyone explain why Liverpool Street tube station was closed this morning
(at least for westbound Central Line trains)?

They said it was because of overcrowding, but when I asked Tube staff where
the overcrowding was, they said it was on the Central Line platforms. If
trains don't stop at the platform, how will this ease overcrowding? Surely
it makes things worse.

I think that a number of routes are under pressure because of the
Northern Line problems and the Vic Line was seriously disrupted at
Oxford Circus yesterday. Liverpool St was closed temporarily to people
entering it. The platforms would be full and believe me when platforms
get completely full the last thing you want is more people trying to
push onto them while others are trying to get off.

The risks are - people may fall off the platform or be pushed / fall
under a train. Also people may just be crushed by the crowd and small
children may get trampled. Finally if the congestion became too severe
you get people blocked back to the escalators thus preventing people
from leaving them thus resulting in a pile up of people on the
escalator.

Therefore the staff would stop people entering the station until trains
had cleared the backlog and then people would be allowed back in in a
controlled fashion. Happens every single day at Victoria because it is
just too small for the huge volumes of people using the station.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:54:33 +0100, "Nicholas F Hodder"
wrote:

Can anyone explain why Liverpool Street tube station was closed this
morning
(at least for westbound Central Line trains)?

They said it was because of overcrowding, but when I asked Tube staff
where
the overcrowding was, they said it was on the Central Line platforms. If
trains don't stop at the platform, how will this ease overcrowding?
Surely
it makes things worse.

I think that a number of routes are under pressure because of the
Northern Line problems and the Vic Line was seriously disrupted at
Oxford Circus yesterday. Liverpool St was closed temporarily to people
entering it. The platforms would be full and believe me when platforms
get completely full the last thing you want is more people trying to
push onto them while others are trying to get off.

How can others get off if the trains don't stop to let anyone get off?

The risks are - people may fall off the platform or be pushed / fall
under a train. Also people may just be crushed by the crowd and small
children may get trampled. Finally if the congestion became too severe
you get people blocked back to the escalators thus preventing people
from leaving them thus resulting in a pile up of people on the
escalator.

Therefore the staff would stop people entering the station until trains
had cleared the backlog and then people would be allowed back in in a

How can the trains clear the backlog if they are going through the station
without stopping?

controlled fashion. Happens every single day at Victoria because it is
just too small for the huge volumes of people using the station.

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

Nicholas F Hodder wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:54:33 +0100, "Nicholas F Hodder"
wrote:

Can anyone explain why Liverpool Street tube station was closed
this morning (at least for westbound Central Line trains)?

They said it was because of overcrowding, but when I asked Tube
staff where the overcrowding was, they said it was on the Central
Line platforms. If trains don't stop at the platform, how will
this ease overcrowding? Surely it makes things worse.

I think that a number of routes are under pressure because of the
Northern Line problems and the Vic Line was seriously disrupted at
Oxford Circus yesterday. Liverpool St was closed temporarily to
people entering it. The platforms would be full and believe me when
platforms get completely full the last thing you want is more people
trying to
push onto them while others are trying to get off.

How can others get off if the trains don't stop to let anyone get off?

They *were* stopping, probably. Did someone tell you they weren't, or did
you infer that (incorrectly) from the fact that the station was closed to
people entering it?
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:51:15 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote in :

The risks are - people may fall off the platform or be pushed / fall
under a train.

BTDTGTTS one morning at Finsbury Park; had to let three crowded
trains pass before there was room on the fourth, all the while feeling the
pressure of the crowd behind. Not fun as I'm scared of heights, and being
at the cutting edge of the platform is enough to drag out the phobias.


--
Ivan Reid, Electronic & Computer Engineering, ___ CMS Collaboration,
Brunel University. Room 40-1-B12, CERN
KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

"Richard J." wrote in message
...
Nicholas F Hodder wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:54:33 +0100, "Nicholas F Hodder"
wrote:

Can anyone explain why Liverpool Street tube station was closed
this morning (at least for westbound Central Line trains)?

They said it was because of overcrowding, but when I asked Tube
staff where the overcrowding was, they said it was on the Central
Line platforms. If trains don't stop at the platform, how will
this ease overcrowding? Surely it makes things worse.

I think that a number of routes are under pressure because of the
Northern Line problems and the Vic Line was seriously disrupted at
Oxford Circus yesterday. Liverpool St was closed temporarily to
people entering it. The platforms would be full and believe me when
platforms get completely full the last thing you want is more people
trying to
push onto them while others are trying to get off.

How can others get off if the trains don't stop to let anyone get off?

They *were* stopping, probably. Did someone tell you they weren't, or did
you infer that (incorrectly) from the fact that the station was closed to
people entering it?

Announcements at Bethnal Green, both by station staff and several train
drivers, stated clearly that trains were not stopping at Liverpool Street
because of "overcrowding". I had to wait until the 4th or 5th train before
there was space for me to get on, and just before my train got to Liverpool
Street, the driver announced that the train would be stopping at Liverpool
Street after all, as the station had reopened. When I got out at Liverpool
Street, I asked some Tube staff at surface level where the overcrowding had
been that had necessitated the station's "closure", and he replied that it
was on the Central Line platforms. I do not understand how not letting
trains stop will ease existing overcrowding on the platforms, hence the
reason for my original question.

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:27:26 +0000, Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote:
BTDTGTTS one morning at Finsbury Park; had to let three crowded

BTDTGTTS?

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

In article , Paul Weaver wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:27:26 +0000, Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote:
BTDTGTTS one morning at Finsbury Park; had to let three crowded

BTDTGTTS?

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Niklas
--
Who is this Time Being and why are people always doing things for him/her?

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:43:47 +0100, "Nicholas F Hodder"
wrote:

[big snip]
How can the trains clear the backlog if they are going through the station
without stopping?

of course the trains were stopping. They just weren't letting anyone
*into* the station. That way the queue on the platform is progressively
cleared. The station was only closed for 6 minutes according to the
report that I read.

HTH
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:43:47 +0100, "Nicholas F Hodder"
wrote:

[big snip]
How can the trains clear the backlog if they are going through the
station
without stopping?

of course the trains were stopping. They just weren't letting anyone
*into* the station. That way the queue on the platform is progressively
cleared. The station was only closed for 6 minutes according to the
report that I read.

Why were station staff at Bethnal Green and train drivers announcing
specifically that westbound trains were not be stopping at Liverpool Street
then?

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

In message , Nicholas F
Hodder writes
Why were station staff at Bethnal Green and train drivers announcing
specifically that westbound trains were not be stopping at Liverpool Street
then?

For the same reason staff at Waterloo deny that virtually every train
that departs will stop at Clapham Common. To stop people getting on!!
--
Roland Perry

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , Nicholas F
Hodder writes
Why were station staff at Bethnal Green and train drivers announcing
specifically that westbound trains were not be stopping at Liverpool
Street
then?

For the same reason staff at Waterloo deny that virtually every train
that departs will stop at Clapham Common. To stop people getting on!!

So are you saying that station staff and train drivers involved are liars
and have a policy of deliberate misinformation?

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:23:39 +0100, Nicholas F Hodder wrote:

So are you saying that station staff and train drivers involved are liars
and have a policy of deliberate misinformation?

Hard to believe isnt it!/irony

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

In message , Nicholas F
Hodder writes
For the same reason staff at Waterloo deny that virtually every train
that departs will stop at Clapham Common. To stop people getting on!!

So are you saying that station staff and train drivers involved are liars
and have a policy of deliberate misinformation?

There appears to be a policy of disinformation regarding Clapham
Junction, yes. Probably Watford Junction too (for northbound former
Intercity services). There is also deliberate misinformation at Kings
Cross regarding the destination of certain trains. They announce
"Foxton" when the train actually goes to Cambridge. In all cases they
appear to believe that the level of misinformation is justified in the
Great Scheme Of Things.
--
Roland Perry

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In all cases they appear to believe that the level of
misinformation is justified in
the Great Scheme Of Things.

In the days of the Goon Show there was a "Ministry of Certain Things"! -)

Paul

--
"Some day my ship will come in - and with
my luck I'll be at the airport!"
[Graffitti - somewhere / Anon.]

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:47:57 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Junction, yes. Probably Watford Junction too (for northbound former

Ahh, the wonderful "Stops to pick up only" things on the timetable :D
Still, stops commuters from stealing my seat when I go upto Manchester.

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

In message , Paul Weaver
writes
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:47:57 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Junction, yes. Probably Watford Junction too (for northbound former

Ahh, the wonderful "Stops to pick up only" things on the timetable :D
Still, stops commuters from stealing my seat when I go upto Manchester.

Doesn't work around here. Several WAGN trains out of Kings X are marked
as "u" for Finsbury Park but I always have quite a wait when boarding at
FP whilst a large number of passengers alight. The FP platform staff
take no notice (or action) so the "u" designation seems pointless.
--
Bob Adams

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:36:30 +0100, Bob Adams wrote:
Doesn't work around here. Several WAGN trains out of Kings X are marked
as "u" for Finsbury Park but I always have quite a wait when boarding at
FP whilst a large number of passengers alight. The FP platform staff
take no notice (or action) so the "u" designation seems pointless.

Heh, shame ticket inspecters on the train are too busy reading the paper
then checking tickets. I got the train back from Exeter last week, didn't
have my ticket checked at all, so I've still got it, it's valid for
another 3 weeks.

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

Bob Adams wrote the following in:


In message , Paul
Weaver writes
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:47:57 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Junction, yes. Probably Watford Junction too (for northbound
former

Ahh, the wonderful "Stops to pick up only" things on the timetable
:D Still, stops commuters from stealing my seat when I go upto
Manchester.

Doesn't work around here. Several WAGN trains out of Kings X are
marked as "u" for Finsbury Park but I always have quite a wait
when boarding at FP whilst a large number of passengers alight.
The FP platform staff take no notice (or action) so the "u"
designation seems pointless.

I agree that the designation is pointless. I also don't see what action
they can take. "Oi, you! GET BACK ON THAT TRAIN! You aren't allowed off
it here!"

--
message by Robin May, but you can call me Mr Smith.
Hello. I'm one of those "roaring fascists of the left wing".

Hacker is to computer as boy racer is to Ford Escort.

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , Nicholas F
Hodder writes
For the same reason staff at Waterloo deny that virtually every train
that departs will stop at Clapham Common. To stop people getting on!!

So are you saying that station staff and train drivers involved are liars
and have a policy of deliberate misinformation?

There appears to be a policy of disinformation regarding Clapham
Junction, yes. Probably Watford Junction too (for northbound former
Intercity services). There is also deliberate misinformation at Kings
Cross regarding the destination of certain trains. They announce
"Foxton" when the train actually goes to Cambridge. In all cases they
appear to believe that the level of misinformation is justified in the
Great Scheme Of Things.

That is because Clapham Junction and Watford Junction are both pick-up only
stops on some long distance routes. Therefore there is no point listing a
station that you cannot legally (in theory at least) get off at.

As for Foxton, these are the slow trains which get overtaken by faster trains
before reaching Cambridge and listing them as Cambridge trains may mean
Cambridge passengers would use them and have an unnecessarily long journey.

Peter Smyth

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

As for Foxton, these are the slow trains which get overtaken by faster trains
before reaching Cambridge and listing them as Cambridge trains may mean
Cambridge passengers would use them and have an unnecessarily long journey.

It's a pity they can't do this with Oxford trains at Reading and
Paddington (announce them as Radley or Didcot). I quite often find that
when people come to visit me here, they end up catching a slow train
because it said 'Oxford', whereas trains to Worcester, Stratford,
Birmingham, Manchester etc often overtake the 'stopper' enroute.
Oxford itself is much better, as the display has sections giving the
times of the next fast trains to Reading and Paddington.
--
Spyke
Address is valid, but messages are treated as junk. The opinions I express do
not necessarily reflect those of the educational institution from which I post.

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:16:40 +0000, Robin May wrote:
I agree that the designation is pointless. I also don't see what action
they can take. "Oi, you! GET BACK ON THAT TRAIN! You aren't allowed off
it here!"

Extend byelaws so that people getting off can be fined as if they are
traveling without a ticket.

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

"Peter Smyth" wrote in message
...

That is because Clapham Junction and Watford Junction are both pick-up
only
stops on some long distance routes. Therefore there is no point listing a
station that you cannot legally (in theory at least) get off at.

And, in the case of Watford Junction, set down only for trains headed for
Euston. If you look at their indicator boards, they show Virgin trains as
"terminates here".
--
Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org
E-mail:
URL: http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:56:16 +0000, Terry Harper wrote:

"Peter Smyth" wrote in message
...

That is because Clapham Junction and Watford Junction are both pick-up
only
stops on some long distance routes. Therefore there is no point listing a
station that you cannot legally (in theory at least) get off at.

And, in the case of Watford Junction, set down only for trains headed for
Euston. If you look at their indicator boards, they show Virgin trains as
"terminates here".

They should close the platform to arrivals before the train gets in for
those situations

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

In article ,
Robin May wrote:
I agree that the designation is pointless. I also don't see what action
they can take. "Oi, you! GET BACK ON THAT TRAIN! You aren't allowed off
it here!"

Arrange for the train not to stop, have a contingent of revenue
protection people on board, arrange taxi's for people who want to
travel from Finsbury.

The penalties (and additional fares back) from a similar exercise
on a Paddington - Bristol (u at Reading) service was enough to pay
for the extra staff time, and the taxis. Or so rumour has it.

--
Good night little fishey-wishes.... I've counted you, so no
sneaky eating each other.
-- FW (should I worry?)

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:56:39 +0000, Mike Bristow wrote:

In article ,
Robin May wrote:
I agree that the designation is pointless. I also don't see what action
they can take. "Oi, you! GET BACK ON THAT TRAIN! You aren't allowed off
it here!"

Arrange for the train not to stop, have a contingent of revenue
protection people on board, arrange taxi's for people who want to
travel from Finsbury.

While the ticket inspector idea is good, an idea occurs - why not have an
empty carriage or two at Paddington and only open the doors to that
carriage, not the Paddington carriages, at reading? Lock the inside doors
and you have no-one getting off without permission from the conductor.

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:37:22 +0000, Huge wrote:

Paul Weaver writes:
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:16:40 +0000, Robin May wrote:
I agree that the designation is pointless. I also don't see what action
they can take. "Oi, you! GET BACK ON THAT TRAIN! You aren't allowed off
it here!"

Extend byelaws so that people getting off can be fined as if they are
traveling without a ticket.

[Derisive snort] Yeah, right. Like the trains don't suck enough as
it is.

They suck because of commuters abusing long distance trains.

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 14:44:47 +0000, Huge wrote:
God forbid that people should be allowed to use the trains they pay
for. That would *never* do.

As I understand it, the money raised by a ticket from Euston to Watford
Junction goes to commuter services on that route, not intercity services.
You've payed for the slow crappy commuter train, not the fast direct
train.

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

In message , Paul Weaver
writes
They suck because of commuters abusing long distance trains.

WAGN? Long distance?? They *are* the commuter trains.
--
Roland Perry

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

In message , Peter Smyth
writes
That is because Clapham Junction and Watford Junction are both pick-up only
stops on some long distance routes. Therefore there is no point listing a
station that you cannot legally (in theory at least) get off at.

And a blind person thinking "I'm going to the first stop, which is
Surbiton". Gets out at Clapham. Very useful.

As for Foxton, these are the slow trains which get overtaken by faster trains
before reaching Cambridge and listing them as Cambridge trains may mean
Cambridge passengers would use them and have an unnecessarily long journey.

I said the misinformation was often justified. It's still
misinformation. What if you've arranged to meet a friend, who says he'll
join you on board the Cambridge train at Shepreth. A bit confusing, eh?
--
Roland Perry

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 21:54:51 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , Paul Weaver
writes
They suck because of commuters abusing long distance trains.

WAGN? Long distance?? They *are* the commuter trains.

Only because some people have weird fetishes and spend 4 hours a day
commuting. I count commuting as inside zone 6. Outside zone 6 you are long
distance.

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

In message , Paul Weaver
writes
WAGN? Long distance?? They *are* the commuter trains.

Only because some people have weird fetishes and spend 4 hours a day
commuting. I count commuting as inside zone 6. Outside zone 6 you are long
distance.

WAGNs that stop at Finsbury Park are largely serving the commuter market
out to the edge of Hertfordshire - which is a 45 minute trip.
--
Roland Perry

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

There is also deliberate misinformation at Kings
Cross regarding the destination of certain trains. They announce
"Foxton" when the train actually goes to Cambridge. In all cases they
appear to believe that the level of misinformation is justified in the
Great Scheme Of Things.

This is done for the benefit of clueless tourists heading for Cambridge
who would otherwise catch the xx.06 to Cambridge only to be overtaken by
the non-stop xx.15. Unfortunately the same trick can't be done in the
opposite direction. Loads of Cambridge station staff are employed full
time herding tourists.

Colin Rosenstiel
Cambridge

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes
There is also deliberate misinformation at Kings
Cross regarding the destination of certain trains. They announce
"Foxton" when the train actually goes to Cambridge. In all cases they
appear to believe that the level of misinformation is justified in the
Great Scheme Of Things.

This is done for the benefit of clueless tourists heading for Cambridge
who would otherwise catch the xx.06 to Cambridge only to be overtaken by
the non-stop xx.15.

We know *why*, but it's still deliberate disinformation!

Unfortunately the same trick can't be done in the opposite direction.

Can't they announce that the stopper is for Finsbury Park?

Loads of Cambridge station staff are employed full time herding
tourists.

Yes, life would be so much easier for the railways if they didn't have
all those pesky customers.
--
Roland Perry

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message
, Colin
Rosenstiel
There is also deliberate misinformation at Kings
Cross regarding the destination of certain trains. They announce
"Foxton" when the train actually goes to Cambridge. In all cases they
appear to believe that the level of misinformation is justified in
the Great Scheme Of Things.

This is done for the benefit of clueless tourists heading for Cambridge
who would otherwise catch the xx.06 to Cambridge only to be overtaken
by the non-stop xx.15.

We know *why*, but it's still deliberate disinformation!

Disinformation is a bit strong. Confusing yes. Maybe when they get screens
which give more information they will give the full explanation.

No so long ago they advertised the xx.06s as to Cambridge. They obviously
got so much confusion that they thought it better to revert to the
previous arrangement. I've certainly spoken to confused tourists at
Cambridge.

Unfortunately the same trick can't be done in the opposite direction.

Can't they announce that the stopper is for Finsbury Park?

Not so effective. You get to Finsbury Park quicker via the Cross using a
Travelcard, for example.

Loads of Cambridge station staff are employed full time herding
tourists.

Yes, life would be so much easier for the railways if they didn't have
all those pesky customers.

Better still if the information systems made things clearer. A "next fast
train to London" indication all over the station might be more effective
than a "next Cambridge Cruiser" only in the booking hall, for example.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Closure of Liverpool Street this morning
 

Paul Corfield wrote in
:

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:43:47 +0100, "Nicholas F Hodder"
wrote:

[big snip]
How can the trains clear the backlog if they are going through the
station without stopping?

of course the trains were stopping. They just weren't letting anyone
*into* the station. That way the queue on the platform is
progressively cleared. The station was only closed for 6 minutes
according to the report that I read.


Having just come across this thread after being away from usenet for a
couple of weeks, I can say with 100% certainty that westbound Central
Line trains were *not* stopping at Liverpool Street that morning. I know
this, because I was on one of those trains.

At Bethnal Green the driver came on the PA to say that he apologised for
the short notice but he'd only just been informed that he wasn't to stop
at Liverpool Street due to overcrowding. When we got into Liverpool
Street station the train did come to a halt for about 30-45 seconds, but
the doors weren't opened. The platform was rather full, although not
ridiculously so, and passengers already on the train could quite clearly
hear the station's recorded announcement being repeated, telling
passengers to vacate the station immediately due to an emergency.

Despite this, most people were still standing on the platform, waiting
(in vain) for the doors of the train I was on to open. Dunno what would
have happened if there had been a real emergency.

Iain
--
"I go online sometimes but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's
depressing." --Tara, Buffy 5x15 "I Was Made To Love You"