East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

Just seen this mentioned on the DD forum - a poster there has noticed
that the unofficial (but rather well informed) "London Bus Routes"
website shows that the ELC rail replacement bus service - the route
that runs from New Cross Gate via New Cross and Rotherhithe stations
to Canada Water and v.v. - is supposedly being discontinued from 26
September, see:
http://www.londonbusroutes.net/changes.htm#151

Eh?! Some mistake, surely? The extended East London Line isn't going
to open until some time next year (the most optimistic estimates were
for December this year, but that now seems unlikely) - to withdraw the
ELC bus service now would be rather premature, to say the least.

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

Mizter T wrote:

Just seen this mentioned on the DD forum - a poster there has noticed
that the unofficial (but rather well informed) "London Bus Routes"
website shows that the ELC rail replacement bus service - the route
that runs from New Cross Gate via New Cross and Rotherhithe stations
to Canada Water and v.v. - is supposedly being discontinued from 26
September, see:
http://www.londonbusroutes.net/changes.htm#151

Eh?! Some mistake, surely? The extended East London Line isn't going
to open until some time next year (the most optimistic estimates were
for December this year, but that now seems unlikely) - to withdraw the
ELC bus service now would be rather premature, to say the least.

Unless they've changed it since the map, the south of the river service is
split between a regular route (381/N381) that serves Bermondsey,
Rotherhithe, Canada Water and Surrey Quays and the ELC that serves Canada
Water, Surrey Quays and both New Crosses. So all that's lost is a bus
connecting the two New Crosses (which you can walk between) and Surrey
Quays - presumably there's a existing bus route that covers this anyway?

My recollection of the ELL when it was operating is that most people used it
to cross the river rather than for local journeys on one side or the other
(give or take access to Wapping). I doubt there are many passengers on the
ELC that ca't be absorbed by regular services, especially as (as Paul notes)
rail replacement services have a reputation for being awful (long convoluted
routes to take in all the stations, getting stuck in suburban side roads
that just weren't planned for buses, old vehicles with horrible seats and
often awkward boarding arrangements with no middle doors) and many will seek
alterative routes.

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

On Aug 29, 11:56*am, Mizter T wrote:
Just seen this mentioned on the DD forum - a poster there has noticed
that the unofficial (but rather well informed) "London Bus Routes"
website shows that the ELC rail replacement bus service - the route
that runs from New Cross Gate via New Cross and Rotherhithe stations
to Canada Water and v.v. - is supposedly being discontinued from 26
September, see:http://www.londonbusroutes.net/changes.htm#151

***Correction*** - I meant to say *Surrey Docks*, not Rotherhithe
(stupid mistake - though I suppose I could have said Deptford Road and
confused everyone!).

Rotherhithe station was in fact served by the ELP bus which linked it
to Canada Water - this route has since been discontinued, with
passengers directed towards the 381 bus service.

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

On 29 Aug, 13:38, Mizter T wrote:
On Aug 29, 11:56*am, Mizter T wrote:

Just seen this mentioned on the DD forum - a poster there has noticed
that the unofficial (but rather well informed) "London Bus Routes"
website shows that the ELC rail replacement bus service - the route
that runs from New Cross Gate via New Cross and Rotherhithe stations
to Canada Water and v.v. - is supposedly being discontinued from 26
September, see:http://www.londonbusroutes.net/changes.htm#151

***Correction*** - I meant to say *Surrey Docks*, not Rotherhithe
(stupid mistake - though I suppose I could have said Deptford Road and
confused everyone!).

Rotherhithe station was in fact served by the ELP bus which linked it
to Canada Water - this route has since been *discontinued, with
passengers directed towards the 381 bus service.

The ELC must be pretty much covered by the 225, with a few extra yards
walk to the right stop.

An improved service on the 225 would pretty much do the trick for the
whole ELL replacement south of the river. I wonder if the replacement
services were always a bit of a sham to avoid whatever obligations or
procedures might have arisen if the line simply closed, but of course
they are all useless if they can't cross the river.

In the meantime, I am still wondering how Shadwell to Whitechapel
works as an outerchange and whether it requires touching on a
replacement bus.

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

"Paul Corfield" wrote:

It's also evident from an initial "leak" in the Standard about the
London Assembly investigation into closures and rail replacement that
people think rail replacement services are shoddy, poor quality and just
not up to the job.

And the people would be right. TfL take great care to ensure regular bus
services adhere to high standards - and I think they do well in this regard.
Yet rail replacement services often resemble vintage bus rallies, with
enthusiasts travelling from far and wide to come and photograph barely
roadworthy vehicles, driven (often) by surly staff who have no idea where
they are going and rely on passengers for directions.

There are large numbers of people, especially in the suburbs and beyond, who
simply don't like using buses, and will avoid doing so at all costs. When
buses stand in for trains on my branch line in Sussex, a passenger load of
typically 30-40 dwindles to perhaps six to eight on the bus, and even these
are often passengers who didn't realise the bustitution was taking place,
who would no doubt have made other arrangements had they known.

Chris

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...
Just seen this mentioned on the DD forum - a poster there has noticed
that the unofficial (but rather well informed) "London Bus Routes"
website shows that the ELC rail replacement bus service - the route
that runs from New Cross Gate via New Cross and Rotherhithe stations
to Canada Water and v.v. - is supposedly being discontinued from 26
September, see:
http://www.londonbusroutes.net/changes.htm#151

Eh?! Some mistake, surely? The extended East London Line isn't going
to open until some time next year (the most optimistic estimates were
for December this year, but that now seems unlikely) - to withdraw the
ELC bus service now would be rather premature, to say the least.

Another possible explanation. 15th September sees the formal legal transfer
of the line away from LU to London Rail. SI 2009 - 2168.

Perhaps LU have transferred the problem to LR, who have a completely
different replacement bus policy?

Paul S

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

On Sep 1, 7:45*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 21:06:41 +0100, "Paul Scott"



wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote in message
....
Just seen this mentioned on the DD forum - a poster there has noticed
that the unofficial (but rather well informed) "London Bus Routes"
website shows that the ELC rail replacement bus service - the route
that runs from New Cross Gate via New Cross and Rotherhithe stations
to Canada Water and v.v. - is supposedly being discontinued from 26
September, see:
http://www.londonbusroutes.net/changes.htm#151

Eh?! Some mistake, surely? The extended East London Line isn't going
to open until some time next year (the most optimistic estimates were
for December this year, but that now seems unlikely) - to withdraw the
ELC bus service now would be rather premature, to say the least.

Another possible explanation. 15th September sees the formal legal transfer
of the line away from LU to London Rail. SI 2009 - 2168.

Perhaps LU have transferred the problem to LR, who have a completely
different replacement bus policy?

And 10/10 to Mr Scott. *Having seen the internal notice today it is
indeed the case that responsibility for these services passes to London
Rail and yes they do have rather a different policy to LUL on rail
replacements. The ELC is finishing and passengers will be directed to
use the 225 instead as it apparently has the capacity and to walk from
New Cross Gate down the road to catch it!

There is also a proposal (not yet confirmed) that the hours of the ELW
will be substantially reduced as well.

It is also worth noting that future tube maps will no longer show the
ELL replacement services and also that in car publicity maps are not
going to be updated due to lack of cash and therefore will still show
them! Sounds wonderful doesn't it!?

--
Paul C

And that presumably one will have to pay for the 225 when using PAYG,
rather than it being free... So not really a replacement bus at all.

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

Chris Read wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote:

It's also evident from an initial "leak" in the Standard about the
London Assembly investigation into closures and rail replacement that
people think rail replacement services are shoddy, poor quality and just
not up to the job.

And the people would be right. TfL take great care to ensure regular bus
services adhere to high standards - and I think they do well in this regard.
Yet rail replacement services often resemble vintage bus rallies, with
enthusiasts travelling from far and wide to come and photograph barely
roadworthy vehicles, driven (often) by surly staff who have no idea where
they are going and rely on passengers for directions.

There are large numbers of people, especially in the suburbs and beyond, who
simply don't like using buses, and will avoid doing so at all costs. When
buses stand in for trains on my branch line in Sussex, a passenger load of
typically 30-40 dwindles to perhaps six to eight on the bus, and even these
are often passengers who didn't realise the bustitution was taking place,
who would no doubt have made other arrangements had they known.

Chris



LU put a lot of effort into rail replacement and in an ideal world every
bus used would be of an equivalent standard to those used on standard
London Buses routes. However, with the sheer number of closures taking
place these days, there simply aren't enough "normal" buses to go round
and so slightly older and / or step entry vehicles have to be used to
make the numbers up. It's not unusual for 150+ replacement buses to be
needed on any given day, and that's without taking into account National
Rail or DLR closurres!

Cheers

Steve M

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 21:06:41 +0100, "Paul Scott"

Another possible explanation. 15th September sees the formal legal
transfer of the line away from LU to London Rail. SI 2009 - 2168.

Perhaps LU have transferred the problem to LR, who have a completely
different replacement bus policy?

And 10/10 to Mr Scott. Having seen the internal notice today it is
indeed the case that responsibility for these services passes to
London Rail and yes they do have rather a different policy to LUL on
rail replacements. T

Just seemed logical that the transfer might trigger changes.

Perhaps posts about what can or can't be possible on the ELL 'because it's
still part of the Underground' will no longer appear!

Paul S

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

On Sep 1, 8:40*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 1 Sep 2009 12:29:50 -0700 (PDT), SamB
wrote:

And that presumably one will have to pay for the 225 when using PAYG,
rather than it being free... So not really a replacement bus at all.

LUL tickets will be accepted on the 225 as they are on the 381. I take
the point you make but strictly the ELL rail replacement buses aren't
free either - I thought they had working ticket machines that charged
the LUL fare or have I got that bit wrong?

They all charge a fare of 0p (i.e. zero pence) on Oyster PAYG. No
fancy pseudo-Tube fare charging arrangements apply.

For New Cross to Surrey Quays/ Canada Water the bus fare (on the 225)
of £1 is cheaper than the £1.10 fare that one would have been charged
on the LU EWLL line, were it still to be open. But obviously that all
falls apart when considering onward journeys on the Jubilee line from
Canada Water (or v.v.)... unless something clever is somehow
implemented (as you've previously suggested is perhaps possible)...

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

On Sep 1, 11:30*pm, Mizter T wrote:

They all charge a fare of 0p (i.e. zero pence) on Oyster PAYG. No
fancy pseudo-Tube fare charging arrangements apply.

For New Cross to Surrey Quays/ Canada Water the bus fare (on the 225)
of £1 is cheaper than the £1.10 fare that one would have been charged
on the LU EWLL line

....or indeed the LU ELL (without the superfluous "line" chucked in
there as well!).

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

On Sep 1, 7:45*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

It is also worth noting that future tube maps will no longer show the
ELL replacement services and also that in car publicity maps are not
going to be updated due to lack of cash and therefore will still show
them! Sounds wonderful doesn't it!?

I'm not sure I follow that logic - Overground services appear on the
tube map, but Overground replacement bus services don't?

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

On 4 Sep, 14:52, teflon wrote:
On Sep 1, 7:45*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

It is also worth noting that future tube maps will no longer show the
ELL replacement services and also that in car publicity maps are not
going to be updated due to lack of cash and therefore will still show
them! Sounds wonderful doesn't it!?

I'm not sure I follow that logic - Overground services appear on the
tube map, but Overground replacement bus services don't?

Not if they are withdrawn.

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

The first ELL Stock arrived last week at NXG Depot.

Regards


Leo

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

On 7 Sep, 19:06, Leo wrote:
The first ELL Stock arrived last week at NXG Depot.

Regards

Leo

For those that want to know the first one was 378 001. I saw a
picture.

Regards


Leo

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

On Sep 7, 7:55*pm, Leo wrote:
The first ELL Stock arrived last week at NXG Depot.


For those that want to know the first one was 378 001. I saw a
picture.

378001 is a dual-voltage 3-car 378/0 for the NLL/WLL, surely?

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

"John B" wrote in message
...
On Sep 7, 7:55 pm, Leo wrote:
The first ELL Stock arrived last week at NXG Depot.


For those that want to know the first one was 378 001. I saw a
picture.

378001 is a dual-voltage 3-car 378/0 for the NLL/WLL, surely?

Yes, but it is a reasonable choice as test unit for the depot, firstly
because it is already fully run in, being the first NLL unit delivered all
those months ago. It has apparently just been back to Derby to have the
interior finished off (although it would be no surprise if any post
production mods have gone in). Secondly, AIUI the NXG depot becomes the
main depot for both fleets, with Willesden for stabling and light
maintenance - so NXG will presumably have an AC electrified test track
somewhere, like there is at Selhurst for 377/2s etc, and that might also
need a functional test?

Paul

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

On Sep 8, 12:09*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
The first ELL Stock arrived last week at NXG Depot.

For those that want to know the first one was 378 001. I saw a
picture.
378001 is a dual-voltage 3-car 378/0 for the NLL/WLL, surely?

Yes, but it is a reasonable choice as test unit for the depot, firstly
because it is already fully run in, being the first NLL unit delivered all
those months ago. It has apparently just been back to Derby to have the
interior finished off (although it would be no surprise if any post
production mods have gone in). *Secondly, AIUI the NXG depot becomes the
main depot for both fleets, with Willesden for stabling and light
maintenance - so NXG will presumably have an AC electrified test track
somewhere, like there is at Selhurst for 377/2s etc, and that might also
need a functional test?

Yup, there is an AC electric test rig at NXG (I saw it on my tour
earlier this year), and that all makes sense.

I was confused as the OP suggested that the "first ELL stock arrived
last week" so I assumed s/he meant Bombardier had turned out a 378/1.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

On 8 Sep, 16:15, John B wrote:
I was confused as the OP suggested that the "first ELL stock arrived
last week" so I assumed s/he meant Bombardier had turned out a 378/1.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot orgwww.johnband.org

I was talking to a friend of mine at the weekend who works on the line
and apparently they were having the usual anatomy waggling deadline
issues where they had to have the track ready for the first stock even
though the first stock was not ready etc etc. To meet agreed
deadlines they had to be ready to receive the first stock hence
preparing a single road for delivery. Bombardier also had to deliver
said stock however as you rightly note it looks like they took the
easier option of providing one from the fleet over at Willesden.

BTW I is a he, well was the last time I checked.

Regards


Leo

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

In article ,
Paul Corfield wrote:

Interesting - that matches the stated programme in the latest ELL
newsletter (as provided by eastender - see other post on utl)

The Newsletter says that test running (of systems as well as trains and
stations) starts this Autumn.

Yes, I saw that. Today I noticed they seem to be putting back the wall
at the Richmond Road works entrance - it has all the hallmarks of a
project running to schedule... probably.

E.

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

On Sep 8, 7:13*pm, eastender wrote:

In article ,
*Paul Corfield wrote:

Interesting - that matches the stated programme in the latest ELL
newsletter (as provided by eastender - see other post on utl)

The Newsletter says that test running (of systems as well as trains and
stations) starts this Autumn.

Yes, I saw that. Today I noticed they seem to be putting back the wall
at the Richmond Road works entrance - it has all the hallmarks of a
project running to schedule... probably.

The one minor hitch being that they ain't got any trains.

East London Line replacement bus ELC to be withdrawn?
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...
On Sep 8, 7:13 pm, eastender wrote:
Yes, I saw that. Today I noticed they seem to be putting back the wall
at the Richmond Road works entrance - it has all the hallmarks of a
project running to schedule... probably.

The one minor hitch being that they ain't got any trains.

They only really need a couple for testing. They've just got one of them,
and there are more than enough delivered to Willesden to fill the ELL any
time the NLL is shut for engineering works - any Sunday in fact.

They would be in a bit of bother if they only had DC trains and were trying
to test an AC section, but luckily it's the other way round. They also have
the ability to run the NLL trains round the SLL and down to New Cross Gate
via London Bridge, so I can't see a huge problem...

Paul S