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Brompton Road to re-open?
news.bbc.co.uk/local/london/hi/people_and_places.../8236894.stm
www.bromptonroad.org.uk P. O. Box 63718, London, SW3 9AT |
Brompton Road to re-open?
The link is:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/london/h...00/8236894.stm Transport in London is so politicised (for better or worse) that interesting the Mayor and the Assembly (or even Kensington & Chelsea council, though local councils do not run LUL) is much more likely to lead to results than lobbying LUL. At the moment, my modest aim (as a local resident) is simply to sound out how much interest there is in the possibility of re-opening Brompton Road amongst local residents and traders. If there is enough interest to lobby effectively for the project, a feasibilty study would have to be commissioned. LUL did so for York Road, and came to rather negative conclusions; see http://www.kingscrossenvironment.com...road-tube.html but supporters of the campaign to re-open York Road (such as Bill Perrin, who writes on the King's Cross ennvironment blog) do not necessarily agree with all the working assumptions. |
Brompton Road to re-open?
"Richard J." wrote in message
om... wrote on 04 September 2009 19:09:47 ... news.bbc.co.uk/local/london/hi/people_and_places.../8236894.stm www.bromptonroad.org.uk P. O. Box 63718, London, SW3 9AT You've now given us an invalid BBC website reference 3 times. What you haven't said is why on earth you think that Brompton Road might re-open. To get LU interested, you would have to demonstrate that there would be a net benefit in journey times, setting the advantages for Brompton Road residents and visitors against the delay of a minute or so for ALL existing Piccadilly Line passengers. Have you done this? -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) Whilst I agree that reopening Brompton Road is unlikely after 70 years, you seem overly dismissive of the idea. First, stations on the central section of the Piccadilly are close together, most notably of course, Covent Garden and Leicester Sq (0.16 miles - maybe CG should be closed?) whereas the gap between Knightsbridge and South Ken is 0.77 miles, the longest station gap anywhere between Manor House and Earls Court (apart from Cal Road to Kings X where of course there is another "missing" station) so an intermediate stop is not an unreasonable aspiration. Apart from providing easier access to the Vic & Albert, it could also relieve both Knightsbridge and South Ken stations which get very crowded particularly during holidays and sale times. I don't know what local demand there is, nor how many people travel over the central section, as compared with those from the north alighting say, at Kings X, or from the west at or by South Ken. Either way, it won't affect ALL Picc line passengers. Give the bloke a chance! MaxB |
Brompton Road to re-open?
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... You cite Covent Garden - well it is very heavily used but it is at the point where such huge sums need to be spent on it to make it cope adequately and safely that a valid scenario could well be closure. At some points the lifts will require replacement and that will cost an awful lot of money and I would doubt the station could safely work with 2 out of 4 lifts in operation. Therefore it would shut during the work but a perfectly rational option would be to shut permanently, speed up journeys and divert the passengers elsewhere. There are only two big arguments against this - Leicester Square is not overflowing with spare capacity so almost certainly could not cope with diverted traffic (nor could Holborn) and the stakeholder / political fall out would be huge. How feasible would it be to simply construct a walkway/escalator from the Eastern end of the Picadilly platforms at Leicester square to the surface building at Covent Garden, then closing the existing Covent Garden platforms? Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything obvious in the way, and if tourists took the 'exit to Covent Garden' from platform they wouldn't get lost trying to find it from Leicester Square station at street level. BTN |
Brompton Road to re-open?
In message , Batman55
writes Apart from providing easier access to the Vic & Albert, it could also relieve both Knightsbridge and South Ken stations which get very crowded particularly during holidays and sale times. I'm not convinced that Cottage Place (site of the old Brompton Road station) is significantly closer to the main entrance of the V&A than South Ken. It could even be fractionally further. These days many people use the Exhibition Road entrance, which is much nearer South Ken (especially when using the direct foot tunnel). There's also the problem that there were never escalator shafts at Brompton Road - it was just lifts. -- Paul Terry |
Brompton Road to re-open?
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... How feasible would it be to simply construct a walkway/escalator from the Eastern end of the Picadilly platforms at Leicester square to the surface building at Covent Garden, then closing the existing Covent Garden platforms? Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything obvious in the way, and if tourists took the 'exit to Covent Garden' from platform they wouldn't get lost trying to find it from Leicester Square station at street level. I really have no idea how far the building basements / foundations go down in that area. My other main observation would be that Leicester Square's platforms are horribly narrow and below capacity. At peak times (i.e. evenings and late) you barely move due to lack of space for people waiting *and* those alighting from trains. The stairs and corridors also jam up very badly - it's not unknown to have to wait on the stairs to let trains go to be able to reach the platforms. Shoving another 16m pax p.a. into that would not helpful. Leicester Square badly needs reconstruction but that's another scheme shoved off into the ether due to no money for big station schemes. If you were to add in Covent Garden's flows you need a much bigger scheme. It could potentially alleviate both flows, if there was a substantial (e.g. JLex-scale) open area immediately off the eastern end of the Picc platforms that widened out as it sloped surfacewards, then maybe a bank of four escalators plus a modern accessibilty lift. All this shows is that there are rarely simple answers to the Tube's capacity problems. The biggest single problem is the lack of lines. There is way too much unnecessary bureaucracy overhead during the planning and consulation phases to try and ensure an optimal route, when the reality is that any half-decent route will be well-patronised to the point of near-overcrowding, and will relieve pressure on existing routes, so better to just build the ****ers rather than waste decades discussing them. Anybody with half a brain could come up with new line ideas just by looking at a map. Example: Albert Line: Arnos Grove Alexandra Palace Hornsey Central Archway Gospel Oak Belsize Park St. Johns Wood Edgware Road Lancaster Gate Royal Albert Hall South Kensington Albert Bridge Battersea Clapham Junction Wandsworth Common Tooting Broadway Tooting Junction Mitcham And if they just started building this, rather than wasting time and money talking about things like it, it could be delivered sooner and more cheaply. Probably. BTN |
Brompton Road to re-open?
On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 5 Sep 2009 17:48:38 +0100, "Sir Benjamin Nunn" wrote: Anybody with half a brain could come up with new line ideas just by looking at a map. Example: Albert Line: Arnos Grove Alexandra Palace Hornsey Central Archway Gospel Oak Belsize Park St. Johns Wood Edgware Road Lancaster Gate Royal Albert Hall South Kensington Albert Bridge Battersea Clapham Junction Wandsworth Common Tooting Broadway Tooting Junction Mitcham Ooh, we haven't had a Scheme on UTL in yonks. Duly mapped: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...820a7d99caba8f Let me know if it doesn't match your vision. An interesting alignment - not one I would have dreamed up. No. It mostly seems to be an exercise in getting people from the suburbs to places they don't want to go. The only stations you could describe as being central are Edgware Road, Lancaster Gate and Royal Albert Hall - none of which are significant commuter destinations. The Edgware Road stop could serve Paddington Basin, of course. The RAH and South Ken stops would be great for Albertopolis, including all the museums, plus Imperial College, the RCA and various other educational institutions, and the RAH itself, but i'm highly skeptical that there are enough jobs round there to fill a tube line. The Battersea stop is too far west to serve the developments round there. The line could serve as a feeder from the suburbs to other tube lines that it crosses, but all the suburban stations area already on lines which do that, or are useful lines in their own right. So, it serves Paddington Basin, a major cultural complex, and gives access to other lines. That's not useless, but it can't justify a tube line. However it's lovely to stick new tube lines in to the network but all that happens if you push overall ridership up and up and up thereby exacerbating your existing pinch points. Ah, but this wouldn't be a problem with Sir Benjamin's line, seeing as how no bugger would use it. tom -- Give the future a chance! |
Brompton Road to re-open?
"Tom Anderson" wrote in message rth.li... On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, Paul Corfield wrote: On Sat, 5 Sep 2009 17:48:38 +0100, "Sir Benjamin Nunn" wrote: Anybody with half a brain could come up with new line ideas just by looking at a map. Example: Albert Line: Arnos Grove Alexandra Palace Hornsey Central Archway Gospel Oak Belsize Park St. Johns Wood Edgware Road Lancaster Gate Royal Albert Hall South Kensington Albert Bridge Battersea Clapham Junction Wandsworth Common Tooting Broadway Tooting Junction Mitcham Ooh, we haven't had a Scheme on UTL in yonks. Duly mapped: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...820a7d99caba8f Let me know if it doesn't match your vision. Heh. I'd actually already done one on google maps: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en...d8fb6aa53&z=11 Your version is slightly more direct. An interesting alignment - not one I would have dreamed up. No. It mostly seems to be an exercise in getting people from the suburbs to places they don't want to go. The only stations you could describe as being central are Edgware Road, Lancaster Gate and Royal Albert Hall - none of which are significant commuter destinations. The Edgware Road stop could serve Paddington Basin, of course. The RAH and South Ken stops would be great for Albertopolis, including all the museums, plus Imperial College, the RCA and various other educational institutions, and the RAH itself, but i'm highly skeptical that there are enough jobs round there to fill a tube line. The Battersea stop is too far west to serve the developments round there. The line could serve as a feeder from the suburbs to other tube lines that it crosses, but all the suburban stations area already on lines which do that, or are useful lines in their own right. So, it serves Paddington Basin, a major cultural complex, and gives access to other lines. That's not useless, but it can't justify a tube line. However it's lovely to stick new tube lines in to the network but all that happens if you push overall ridership up and up and up thereby exacerbating your existing pinch points. Ah, but this wouldn't be a problem with Sir Benjamin's line, seeing as how no bugger would use it. I'd use it! Getting from Tooting/Mitcham to Central London takes ages. Getting to North London (or indeed West or East London) is something you don't even want to think about. Clapham Junction doesn't have an LU service. Tramlink only has one LU interchange, at the far end. The walk from South Ken to the Albert Hall through the foot tunnel is unpleasant. All the radial limbs of the underground in North London lack lateral routes providing interchanges. The spacing of the stations would make this line a quick, direct Victoria-style experience, as opposed to the sluggishness of the Northern Line. Here's another one I came up with that takes over bits and pieces of existing infrastructure. (see if you can spot which bits!) Mill Hill East Finchley Central Muswell Hill Hornsey Central Crouch Hill Finsbury Park Drayton Park Highbury & Islington Essex Road Old Street Moorgate Bank Blackfriars Waterloo Vauxhall Battersea Park Clapham Junction Wandsworth Town East Putney Roehampton BTN |
Brompton Road to re-open?
wrote on 05 September 2009 13:49:59 ...
The link is: http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/london/h...00/8236894.stm Transport in London is so politicised (for better or worse) that interesting the Mayor and the Assembly (or even Kensington & Chelsea council, though local councils do not run LUL) is much more likely to lead to results than lobbying LUL. That has not been my experience in similar circumstances elsewhere on the Piccadilly Line. The politicians can facilitate discussions about such proposals, but the cost-benefit balance has to be right before you get a result. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
Brompton Road to re-open?
Sir Benjamin Nunn wrote: "Tom Anderson" wrote in message rth.li... On Sat, 5 Sep 2009, Paul Corfield wrote: On Sat, 5 Sep 2009 17:48:38 +0100, "Sir Benjamin Nunn" wrote: Anybody with half a brain could come up with new line ideas just by looking at a map. Example: Albert Line: Arnos Grove Alexandra Palace Hornsey Central Archway Gospel Oak Belsize Park St. Johns Wood Edgware Road Lancaster Gate Royal Albert Hall South Kensington Albert Bridge Battersea Clapham Junction Wandsworth Common Tooting Broadway Tooting Junction Mitcham Ooh, we haven't had a Scheme on UTL in yonks. Duly mapped: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...820a7d99caba8f Let me know if it doesn't match your vision. Heh. I'd actually already done one on google maps: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en...d8fb6aa53&z=11 Your version is slightly more direct. An interesting alignment - not one I would have dreamed up. No. It mostly seems to be an exercise in getting people from the suburbs to places they don't want to go. The only stations you could describe as being central are Edgware Road, Lancaster Gate and Royal Albert Hall - none of which are significant commuter destinations. The Edgware Road stop could serve Paddington Basin, of course. The RAH and South Ken stops would be great for Albertopolis, including all the museums, plus Imperial College, the RCA and various other educational institutions, and the RAH itself, but i'm highly skeptical that there are enough jobs round there to fill a tube line. The Battersea stop is too far west to serve the developments round there. The line could serve as a feeder from the suburbs to other tube lines that it crosses, but all the suburban stations area already on lines which do that, or are useful lines in their own right. So, it serves Paddington Basin, a major cultural complex, and gives access to other lines. That's not useless, but it can't justify a tube line. However it's lovely to stick new tube lines in to the network but all that happens if you push overall ridership up and up and up thereby exacerbating your existing pinch points. Ah, but this wouldn't be a problem with Sir Benjamin's line, seeing as how no bugger would use it. I'd use it! Getting from Tooting/Mitcham to Central London takes ages. Getting to North London (or indeed West or East London) is something you don't even want to think about. Clapham Junction doesn't have an LU service. Tramlink only has one LU interchange, at the far end. The walk from South Ken to the Albert Hall through the foot tunnel is unpleasant. All the radial limbs of the underground in North London lack lateral routes providing interchanges. The spacing of the stations would make this line a quick, direct Victoria-style experience, as opposed to the sluggishness of the Northern Line. Interesting points. But what colour should this line be? Here's another one I came up with that takes over bits and pieces of existing infrastructure. (see if you can spot which bits!) Mill Hill East Finchley Central Muswell Hill Hornsey Central Crouch Hill Finsbury Park Drayton Park Highbury & Islington Essex Road Old Street Moorgate Bank Blackfriars Waterloo Vauxhall Battersea Park Clapham Junction Wandsworth Town East Putney Roehampton And again, what colour? (After all, TfL must be running out of clearly distinct colours for the map. That's got to limit the number of possible new lines.) |
Brompton Road to re-open?
In uk.transport.london message f4e51a1c-3d0c-4c3d-8c66-a96f232af378@w10
g2000yqf.googlegroups.com, Sun, 6 Sep 2009 02:02:18, solar penguin posted: ... Crouch Hill Finsbury Park Drayton Park Highbury & Islington Essex Road Old Street Moorgate Bank ... And again, what colour? (After all, TfL must be running out of clearly distinct colours for the map. That's got to limit the number of possible new lines.) Route it through Caledonian Road, and colour it tartan. -- (c) John Stockton, nr London, UK. Turnpike v6.05 MIME. Web URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - FAQqish topics, acronyms & links; Astro stuff via astron-1.htm, gravity0.htm ; quotings.htm, pascal.htm, etc. No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News. |
Brompton Road to re-open?
In message , Paul Corfield
writes I think we need some lessons from Spaniards who seem to be able to build new tram, Metro, rail and High Speed lines in about 3 years from start to finish - even where they had to be driven through existing city centres and link to existing lines. Progress in Madrid and Barcelona seems very impressive - one day I'll get to see for myself. Hmmmm Having just spent 4 days in Madrid, the place is like a building site - and a very unpleasant one at that. Arrival at Barcelona this afternoon just reinforces my assertion that they are currently rebuilding Spain. -- Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building. You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK (please use the reply to address for email) |
Brompton Road to re-open?
On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 19:28:26 +0100, Steve Fitzgerald ]
wrote: In message , Paul Corfield writes I think we need some lessons from Spaniards who seem to be able to build new tram, Metro, rail and High Speed lines in about 3 years from start to finish - even where they had to be driven through existing city centres and link to existing lines. Progress in Madrid and Barcelona seems very impressive - one day I'll get to see for myself. Hmmmm Having just spent 4 days in Madrid, the place is like a building site - and a very unpleasant one at that. Arrival at Barcelona this afternoon just reinforces my assertion that they are currently rebuilding Spain. It's all to do with the recession. The bottom has dropped out of the domestic housing market (especially that catering mainly for foreigners) and so the building industry has a surfeit of workers of all skill levels desperate for jobs at any salary; hence the civic projects can be carried out more cheaply, and are being pushed ahead whilst the situation lasts. There are some Spanish practices the rest of Europe could learn from (but then I'm biased, as Spain is my adopted country). -- Bill Hayles http://billnot.com |
Brompton Road to re-open?
On Sep 10, 7:40*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 13:53:05 +0200, Bill Hayles wrote: On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 19:28:26 +0100, Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote: Arrival at Barcelona this afternoon just reinforces my assertion that they are currently rebuilding Spain. It's all to do with the recession. The bottom has dropped out of the domestic housing market (especially that catering mainly for foreigners) and so the building industry has a surfeit of workers of all skill levels desperate for jobs at any salary; hence the civic projects can be carried out more cheaply, and are being pushed ahead whilst the situation lasts. There are some Spanish practices the rest of Europe could learn from (but then I'm biased, as Spain is my adopted country). Care to elaborate as their ability to construct metro, tram and train lines in next to no time (relatively speaking) is something I would dearly love to understand? *There must be something in the planning, regulatory or construction methodologies that allows them to make such quick progress. Not an expert, but: empty country, cheap land, cheap labour? -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
Brompton Road to re-open?
I've now added much material to the web site. Please have a look:
On 4-Sep-2009, wrote: www.bromptonroad.org.uk |
Brompton Road to re-open?
wrote on 31 October 2009 16:41:34 ...
I've now added much material to the web site. Please have a look: On 4-Sep-2009, wrote: www.bromptonroad.org.uk Some interesting historical stuff, but I can't see anything yet about the costs/benefits of reopening. Without that, I'm afraid the answer is "no". -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
Brompton Road to re-open?
Richard J. wrote:
wrote on 31 October 2009 16:41:34 ... I've now added much material to the web site. Please have a look: On 4-Sep-2009, wrote: www.bromptonroad.org.uk Some interesting historical stuff, but I can't see anything yet about the costs/benefits of reopening. Without that, I'm afraid the answer is "no". What's the deal with plans to re-open York Road? |
Brompton Road to re-open?
On Nov 1, 5:29*pm, "
wrote: What's the deal with plans to re-open York Road? The consensus that I've seen in threads on u.t.l. and elsewhere is that despite the opportunities for interchange with the NLL, the York Road area is still too industrial and too lightly occupied to justify the reconstruction of the station. One pet project of mine is to expand the station to allow for terminating services, with two new station tunnels on the outside for through trains and the existing station tunnels used for terminating services, with the existing crossover tunnel expanded to house a scissors crossover and the old running lines converted into sidings. It would be fantastically expensive, but it would solve once and for all the chronic reliability and reversing problems experienced on the Piccadilly Line west of King's Cross and also allow a more realistic off-peak service to operate on the Picc north of King's Cross. Failing that, reopening the station as-is would still be expensive, but less so because the lift shafts descend all the way to platform level, allowing for step-free access using the existing shafts. |
Brompton Road to re-open?
On 2 Nov, 03:10, TheOneKEA wrote:
The consensus that I've seen in threads on u.t.l. and elsewhere is that despite the opportunities for interchange with the NLL, the York Road area is still too industrial and too lightly occupied to justify the reconstruction of the station. There was a very thorough feasibility study and business case produced in 2005: http://www.kingscrossenvironment.com...road-tube.html It came to the conclusion that it would be cheap-ish (£40m all in) and produce a large benefit for users of York Road but an almost equally large disbenefit for passengers passing through, for a negligibly small benefit overall. They also did some passenger behaviour modelling and came to the conclusion that congestion at KXSP for actually increase slightly, due to half the York Road passengers interchanging there (which apparently produces more congestion than them walking/busing to the Northern Ticket Hall), which wipes out even the tiny benefit, for a spectacularly small BCR of 0.03. (If it weren't for those two negatives, it'd have a BCR of about 14 by my calculations) U |
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