On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 19:31:04 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:



True - while others board at the rear, people can pay at the front -
in Hamburg, a wide range of tickets is available and doesn't cause a
lot of delay.


This seems to be common in all German cities that I've visited.

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:00:44 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:


Despite the constant digs at it, I still find London's public transport
pretty good. This is especially so when compared to other British
cities!

Perhaps, but compare the tube with *any* other equivalent in the world
and how does it perform?


Even Paris, often cited as being streets ahead of London in public
transport provision, has nothing like as comprehensive a bus network.
During the evenings and on Sundays it reduces to a very skeletal
network.

A bit like my train service, then (I live in London, but only get 1tph
on a Sunday)

In article , K
writes
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:00:44 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:


Despite the constant digs at it, I still find London's public transport
pretty good. This is especially so when compared to other British
cities!

Perhaps, but compare the tube with *any* other equivalent in the world
and how does it perform?

Well, from my personal (limited) experience, London Underground is:

More run down than Paris'

Further flung than Paris's

Neater than New York's

Simpler to use than New York's

More pleasant than Brussels'

Less terrifying than Amsterdam's

More Comprehensive than Sydney's Cityrail

About on a par with Berlin's U-Bahn

(These are subjective personal "feelings", not something I could
substantiate mathematically. I also accept that some of the above
cities are in no way comparable; in fact, only Paris and New York
probably are, although Moscow, which I've not yet visited, is perhaps
also a contender.)

Even Paris, often cited as being streets ahead of London in public
transport provision, has nothing like as comprehensive a bus network.
During the evenings and on Sundays it reduces to a very skeletal
network.

A bit like my train service, then (I live in London, but only get 1tph
on a Sunday)
Yes, the paucity of trains on some "BR" (National Rail, whatever!) lines
in London often surprises me.

But I *really* think that London's bus service is unrivalled (the
nearest contenders for its crown I've ever seen are in Berlin and
Hamburg).
--
Ian Jelf, MITG, Birmingham, UK
Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for
London & the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:43:03 +0000, K wrote:

This seems to be common in all German cities that I've visited.

Indeed. I also recall being quite surprised to board a tram in (I
think) Bremen and have to pay the driver through a little window on
that while everyone else boarded!

Neil

--
Neil Williams
is a valid email address, but is sent to /dev/null.
Try my first name at the above domain instead if you want to e-mail me.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 18:56:43 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:

But I *really* think that London's bus service is unrivalled (the
nearest contenders for its crown I've ever seen are in Berlin and
Hamburg).

The difference with Hamburg is that very few buses (other than night
buses) actually run into the centre - 99% of normal city buses feed
the unrivalled U- and S-bahn system, which is without exception the
best I have ever used anywhere - reasonable fares, frequent service
and superb punctuality and reliability figures.

There is a sub-network of express Schnellbusse, on which a supplement
is charged and high-quality seating is provided, most of which run
to/from the centre should anyone require this, but the main idea of
the network is to feed the rail system. Even (in part) in London, and
especially in other parts of the UK, this is not the situation.

Hamburg does, of course, have one thing over London, which is that its
fleet is 100% Mercedes, mostly O405s of various types (mostly
low-floor but some high-floor, and a good few bendies of both types)
and the occasional but increasing Citaro. Despite their somewhat
spartan interior, these buses are vastly superior (as those who have
used the bendies will no doubt agree) to most of the cheap,
poorly-designed, rattly rubbish (Dennis Darts etc) found in London and
throughout the UK. The Schnellbusse, meanwhile, are pure class, with
high-backed, soft seats and bags of legroom.

To be honest, I'm surprised TfL hasn't tried the idea of premium
express bus services - perhaps the issue is that the roads are too
busy for it to be practical? That said, the Schnellbusse (despite the
name) are anything but quick - their real benefit is cutting out
changes, superior comfort and low loadings.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
is a valid email address, but is sent to /dev/null.
Try my first name at the above domain instead if you want to e-mail me.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 18:56:43 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:


Well, from my personal (limited) experience, London Underground is:

[various comparisons snipped]

But how does it compare for reliablity?

Also Route 23 is to lose their RMs too from 15th November this year. Then
route 94 will also lose their RMs from January 24th 2004. Route 6 and 98
will lose their RMs from March 27th (at the same day). As Robin said with
his reply from TfL they are getting old.

Regards
George



"Robin Cox" wrote in message
...
"Nes" wrote in message
...
Sorry if this has been taclked before!

Just wondering why are all the RM-type crew buses being withdrawn? First
the
94, then 15 and now the 11? I know there are others, but those routes
are
what first comes to mind.

I asked London Buses a similar question last month.

Here's their reply:

=====
... we are currently reviewing the benefits of replacing
Routemasters with fully accessible buses. Fully accessible buses will
enable
all members of the community to use them. The intention is therefore to
remove the vast majority of Routemasters by 2008. Unfortunately, at the
current time we do not know whether some may be retained on "tourist
routes." However, we do recognise that these buses are popular with many
customers and are also an important part of London's transport heritage.
We
will bear this in mind before taking any decisions.

In respect of specific routes, the vehicles used are constantly monitored
and decisions are taken to renew vehicles in light of ongoing assessments
on
the state of the fleet. I am therefore unable to tell you which routes
will
lose their routemasters and when. In respect of route 94, there is no
immediate plan to change the vehicles serving this route.

I am sorry I can not give you a clearer response at this time. Thank you
once again for your continued interest.
=====


Robin

Yes indeed folks,it seems that Gerry owes quite a debt of gratitude to Sir
Arthur (Bomber) Harris.
I rather suspect that "Bomber" had no idea that his policies would leave the
remanants of the Reich with probably the best Public Transport systems in
the World.
What a strange place the "World" really is !!

"linda.salvador" wrote in message ...
Also Route 23 is to lose their RMs too from 15th November this year. Then
route 94 will also lose their RMs from January 24th 2004. Route 6 and 98
will lose their RMs from March 27th (at the same day). As Robin said with
his reply from TfL they are getting old.

Regards
George


I get the feeling that the 12's RMs can't be staying much longer. The
CrystalEyes displays and associated cameras have all been ripped out,
messy metal panels and odd paint left in their place. Also the buses
have become increasingly run down, filthy and vandalised inside in
recent weeks - upstairs on the one I took last night I found a copy of
Auto Express from September (though of course it may have been left
that day, but from the amount of rubbish it didn't look like it had
been cleaned for quite some time). Has to be said though that London
Central doesn't seem very good at keeping its buses clean inside, or
grafitti free - have they heard of anti-scratch film?

I personally won't miss the Routemasters. They are incredibly draughty
in the winter and their small, close together seats and the tight
dimensions of the vehicle make for a rather unpleasent experience:
everyones legs stray into the aisle out of necessity, making it quite
difficult to fight your way to the stairs when you want to get off.
Not to mention excessive vibration and lurching when idling and
boneshaking ride.

They are true icons and have some good design features, but are no
longer suited to modern day adult bodies!

"Thomas Payne" wrote in message ..snip..
They are true icons and have some good design features, but are no
longer suited to modern day adult bodies!
Yes, but when are they going to add more stops along routes (e.g. Oxford St)
to take on the passengers who used to hop on between stops? There is no
reason to have so few stops especially when traffic moves so slowly.
Brian